Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Family matters/health  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 16.12.2010, 19:15
MacGregor's Daughter's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Zug
Posts: 3,169
Groaned at 31 Times in 23 Posts
Thanked 3,563 Times in 1,463 Posts
MacGregor's Daughter has a reputation beyond reputeMacGregor's Daughter has a reputation beyond reputeMacGregor's Daughter has a reputation beyond reputeMacGregor's Daughter has a reputation beyond reputeMacGregor's Daughter has a reputation beyond reputeMacGregor's Daughter has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Backward Step

Quote:
View Post
You're clearly not pushing her.

While you may not see a problem with the age difference at this point (although I find that hard to believe), you will as she gets older.
.
That's why we had to see all theses people: They had to make sure we were not pushing her.

As I said, she is in 11th grade now and there is no difference. Maybe I should add that she is physically well ahead of girls her age, she fits in with the older girls perfectly and she has always been one of the tallest girls in her class.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank MacGregor's Daughter for this useful post:
  #22  
Old 16.12.2010, 19:21
MacGregor's Daughter's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Zug
Posts: 3,169
Groaned at 31 Times in 23 Posts
Thanked 3,563 Times in 1,463 Posts
MacGregor's Daughter has a reputation beyond reputeMacGregor's Daughter has a reputation beyond reputeMacGregor's Daughter has a reputation beyond reputeMacGregor's Daughter has a reputation beyond reputeMacGregor's Daughter has a reputation beyond reputeMacGregor's Daughter has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Backward Step

Quote:
View Post
But if they start way too late here, then pretty much the whole of Europe is wrong: http://www.nfer.ac.uk/nfer/index.cfm...C-8B4F43F54A28
This table shows that in most European countries school age is 6, in Switzerland it's 7 (or at least it used to be).

It does not mean that you can't still become a high achiever, it's just that you are pretty old by the time you graduate from highschool and also pretty old by the time you graduate from university - compared to the US or Canada.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 16.12.2010, 19:30
kodokan's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Phoenix AZ, USA
Posts: 1,299
Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post
Thanked 930 Times in 460 Posts
kodokan has a reputation beyond reputekodokan has a reputation beyond reputekodokan has a reputation beyond reputekodokan has a reputation beyond reputekodokan has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Backward Step

Quote:
View Post
it's just that you are pretty old by the time you graduate from highschool and also pretty old by the time you graduate from university - compared to the US or Canada.
Don't Swiss kids go to university at 18, the same as for example in the UK? At least the ones in Vaud do, unless I'm woefully misinterpreting this chart: http://www.vd.ch/fileadmin/user_uplo...Angleterre.pdf

(VSO/VSG/VSB is age 12 to 15, then there are 3 years of gymnase for the Matura.)
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 16.12.2010, 19:44
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Backward Step

Correct, if you don't retake any year/s. I did my Bac at 18 and would have gone to Uni at 18 (went to UK instead, and went to Uni aged 29, but that's another story). Started Kindergarten at 4, mornings only and school aged 6. So later start, then catch quickly.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 16.12.2010, 19:52
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: At home
Posts: 4,167
Groaned at 208 Times in 133 Posts
Thanked 6,403 Times in 2,719 Posts
Faltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Backward Step

At Norwegian university, teachers' degree course, we learned that:
- there is no correlation between age of first day of school and results in High school at 18.
- the only predictable issue is that a child with difficulties at age 6 or 7 will always have some difficulties all the way up to high school, the success being possible individually depending on how the system helps dealing with these difficulties.
- starting to read at 5 or at 7 does not make any difference to literacy tests in middle school.

I don't know if it is true, but the pedagogues of university of Oslo were very convinced of it. The nordic countries start "academic" school later, reading at 7 and they do not produce stupid high schoolers. At least not more than any other place.

The factors that really make a difference are not linked to quantity of teaching but linked to intensity and adaptation to relevant situations. In other words, it only is important to start learning to read with 4 years old if the system puts this child into overcrowded classes in school with polymorphic social challenges like it is the case some places... But one is better off starting at 7 in smaller classes in a school culture valuing academic achievement and personal development. Where the latter is possible, like in the vaste majority of nordic schools, the social skills are extreemly valued and supported in early years, as the culture dictates very high social cohesion and feeling of national community at adult age. That is the basics to Danes and Finns. It isn't to Italians and French. No idea in the UK, but I could take a guess...
__________________
Es wird nichts ausgelassen, um mich hier herauszuekeln. Ein Lehrbuch. False accusations and attacks continue. There is no stopping righteous people when they are wrong.
Reply With Quote
The following 6 users would like to thank Faltrad for this useful post:
  #26  
Old 16.12.2010, 20:14
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Backward Step

Being out of step emotionally and socially due to being younger than school pairs is, personally, a much bigger problem, especially as he gets older. A 13 year old in a class of 15 year olds can be a real problem. And a 13 year old in a 6th Form college will, very likely, not feel very comfortable. Again, personally, I'd think that taking a very young healthy and generally happy child, from psychologist to psychologist and other specialists, is not a 'normal' experience, and not necessarily conducive to feeling comfortable and happy. As Falltrad says very eloquently, 'jumping' years like this makes not difference at all. We used to read a lot at home, + learning French (we lived in UK) was plenty to keep them happy and 'stimulated' + both started learning the piano (their choice).
What is the rush?

Last edited by Odile; 16.12.2010 at 20:20. Reason: error
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank for this useful post:
  #27  
Old 16.12.2010, 20:29
MacGregor's Daughter's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Zug
Posts: 3,169
Groaned at 31 Times in 23 Posts
Thanked 3,563 Times in 1,463 Posts
MacGregor's Daughter has a reputation beyond reputeMacGregor's Daughter has a reputation beyond reputeMacGregor's Daughter has a reputation beyond reputeMacGregor's Daughter has a reputation beyond reputeMacGregor's Daughter has a reputation beyond reputeMacGregor's Daughter has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Backward Step

Quote:
Correct, if you don't retake any year/s. I did my Bac at 18 and would have gone to Uni at 18 (went to UK instead, and went to Uni aged 29, but that's another story). Started Kindergarten at 4, mornings only and school aged 6. So later start, then catch quickly.
The students around here in the Zug area (the ones that go to local school) are 19, sometimes 20, when they graduate from high school.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 16.12.2010, 20:30
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: At home
Posts: 4,167
Groaned at 208 Times in 133 Posts
Thanked 6,403 Times in 2,719 Posts
Faltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Backward Step

Too young for high school can also be an issue... try reading essays from French authors like Rousseau, Montesquieu or La Bruyère with 15 years old. Maturity is an issue, even if the said student is smart and do wonderful in IQ tests. Those authors are meant for 17-19 years old (in my opinion). Same with German authors like Celan, Th. Mann, Th. Berhard, Christa Wolf... Even Dürrenmatt can be challenging for some 15 years old students.

However... with one year difference, the maturity issue is far less a problem and it depends more on the student's personality. Case to case basis, I would say.
__________________
Es wird nichts ausgelassen, um mich hier herauszuekeln. Ein Lehrbuch. False accusations and attacks continue. There is no stopping righteous people when they are wrong.

Last edited by Faltrad; 16.12.2010 at 20:40. Reason: English... what else?
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 16.12.2010, 20:39
MacGregor's Daughter's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Zug
Posts: 3,169
Groaned at 31 Times in 23 Posts
Thanked 3,563 Times in 1,463 Posts
MacGregor's Daughter has a reputation beyond reputeMacGregor's Daughter has a reputation beyond reputeMacGregor's Daughter has a reputation beyond reputeMacGregor's Daughter has a reputation beyond reputeMacGregor's Daughter has a reputation beyond reputeMacGregor's Daughter has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Backward Step

Quote:
What is the rush?
I think it is equally unfair to the child to keep it from learning when it is eager to and otherwise intellectually, physically, mentally, and socially ready for it as it is to force children to school even if they are not ready for it yet, just because they have reached a certain age.

My daughter was not interested in playing, should I have forced her to go to kindergarten where there was nothing of interest or challenging for her? She went for half a year and was bored to death.

I am just trying to point out that schooling should be started when a kid is ready, regardless of age.

And another thing: The school board demanded her to see all these specialists, it was not my idea.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank MacGregor's Daughter for this useful post:
  #30  
Old 16.12.2010, 20:57
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Backward Step

Thanks for clarifying.

My point was regarding the emotional and psychological development of teenagers, as opposed to their physical development. A teenager may look like they belong, but a year or two makes a big difference at this stage of life and while their classmates may be emotionally capable of dealing with certain situations (sex, for example), younger classmates who have been moved ahead unnecessarily may not be ready for the pressures involved. Schools and parents move kids ahead at the child's risk, IMO, any short term benefit may be just that.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 16.12.2010, 21:14
kodokan's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Phoenix AZ, USA
Posts: 1,299
Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post
Thanked 930 Times in 460 Posts
kodokan has a reputation beyond reputekodokan has a reputation beyond reputekodokan has a reputation beyond reputekodokan has a reputation beyond reputekodokan has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Backward Step

Quote:
View Post
I am just trying to point out that schooling should be started when a kid is ready, regardless of age.
This is an entirely fair point; if we're going to argue that kids shouldn't be rushed into academic pen-pushing when they're not ready then we need to accept that for some kids it goes the other way too.

It's a tricky one for the teachers, though, having an individual rather than a chronological decision. When my son was in a small rural school in the UK, his class of 20 was split for one year into a combined Reception/ Year 1 class, and a combined Year 1/ Year 2 class. Apparently the school used to do this on maturity and aptitude, but then half the parents complained that Little Johnny was 'being kept back, and he's awfully bright, and it's not fair'.

So instead they did it on birthday cut-off. Which kept the parental grumbling to a minimum but landed them with the absurd situation of managing one or two incredibly bright and bored Harry Potter-reading 5 yr olds alongside the newbie 4 yr olds who haven't even done their letter sounds yet, whilst in the room next door a couple of 6 yr old boys were totally out of their depth socially AND being taken out for remedial reading with a specialist helper. Madness.

I guess a chronological year starting point with an element of flexibility either way is the best solution, and it is at least possible in Switzerland - kids in English schools are far less likely to be able to move grades however 'plain as the nose on your face' the decision looks.

But... (you can tell I'm ambivalent on this ) I do agree that the precocious 6 yr old can quite easily become a perfectly normal, slightly bright but nothing special teenager. Who's now in the wrong grade socially. My older brother was moved up a year when he was 9, amid comments of 'genius' and 'second Einstein'. He therefore went to secondary a year early, as a tiny, suddenly unsure little dot, and bombed out spectacularly in his mid-teens before leaving under an ignominious cloud where he was only allowed back on the school premises to take his exams some months later.

The experience left him with a lifelong stammer and he now works nightshifts in a warehouse, having deliberately sought out an undemanding position with as little people contact as possible. None of this could have been predicted based on his early ability and gregarious nature.

The more I see of education, the more I think there's no 'right'. And even if there was, it's only 'right' for this child, and now. And given a choice, I would always, always go for whatever option caters for the (cringing as I write this) 'whole child' and protects their desire to learn and self-esteem. Everything else is just facts and can be crammed at any old time.

Still not convinced that a 5 yr old in foreign language immersion can be mentally 'bored', though. Overwhelmed, struggling to find his place, finding it difficult to suddenly not know all the answers, feeling all in sea in a looser, less structured environment - yes. Unable to articulate any of this and settling on 'bored' - highly likely.
__________________
'Chance favours only the prepared mind.'
Reply With Quote
The following 6 users would like to thank kodokan for this useful post:
  #32  
Old 16.12.2010, 21:29
MacGregor's Daughter's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Zug
Posts: 3,169
Groaned at 31 Times in 23 Posts
Thanked 3,563 Times in 1,463 Posts
MacGregor's Daughter has a reputation beyond reputeMacGregor's Daughter has a reputation beyond reputeMacGregor's Daughter has a reputation beyond reputeMacGregor's Daughter has a reputation beyond reputeMacGregor's Daughter has a reputation beyond reputeMacGregor's Daughter has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Backward Step

Quote:
View Post
The more I see of education, the more I think there's no 'right'. And even if there was, it's only 'right' for this child, and now. And given a choice, I would always, always go for whatever option caters for the (cringing as I write this) 'whole child' and protects their desire to learn and self-esteem. Everything else is just facts and can be crammed at any old time.

Still not convinced that a 5 yr old in foreign language immersion can be mentally 'bored', though. Overwhelmed, struggling to find his place, finding it difficult to suddenly not know all the answers, feeling all in sea in a looser, less structured environment - yes. Unable to articulate any of this and settling on 'bored' - highly likely.
The fact that he has to learn the language first - yes, I agree, he should not be pushed into school.

My daughter spoke the language fluently, that makes a big difference.

Last edited by MacGregor's Daughter; 16.12.2010 at 21:32. Reason: adding information
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 16.12.2010, 21:37
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Backward Step

If you intend to stay, then it makes sense to keep him in Swiss public schools.. But if you return home, I would suggest private school for your child. At least in private school, the teachers are accountable to you. In Swiss public schools, you will have no say in the matter, and the teachers are not accountable for their performance.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #34  
Old 16.12.2010, 22:26
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Basel
Posts: 389
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 758 Times in 216 Posts
Moorsholm has a reputation beyond reputeMoorsholm has a reputation beyond reputeMoorsholm has a reputation beyond reputeMoorsholm has a reputation beyond reputeMoorsholm has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Backward Step

The standard in maths and sciences seems to me to be far higher here in Switzerland than in the UK. So I wouldn't worry on that front at all.

Then you have the advantage of being bi-lingual. The only thing that does need some attention (and I have a 9 year old bi-ingual son) is that the child continues to increase their active and passive vocabulary, reading and writing skills in English.

As an English teacher here, what I've seen many times is children of expats or bi-lingual children who have gone through the Swiss system, have native speaker ability in their spoken language and in understanding the spoken language - but that ability is not matched in their control of the written language, their level of control in written discourse/syntax etc - and also in their range of vocabulary (often as they also don't read widely in English)

The result of this (which I see so clearly in my work here) is that many children from expat or bi-lingual backgrounds have real difficulties in writing an academic essay in English - it's not connected with their actual know-how, but with the fact that their work is peppered with "non native speaker errors" and often terrible spelling mistakes. This then presents a challenge if those teens want to attend a UK university - it can be addressed in the teenage years, but would be much easier if they'd had thorough writing/spelling and reading training throughout the childhood years.

Our son attends Swiss school - and I have to say, the maths he's doing at 9 is pretty full on. I've been taking him to an English afternoon school every week for 7 years. There he has learnt to read, write and importantly spell! in English. (They have weekly spelling tests - it's so important as German is spelled phonetically and English is not)

Other ways I've worked to keep his level of English up to a level where he could survive in an English school are:

1) Letting him have half an hour more each night with his light on (but only for reading English books - so he reads a chapter a night)

2) Insisting that any TV he watches when I'm around is English TV. CBBees - and other shows from the UK. My reasoning is exposure to not only cultural aspects/accents etc, but also content and most of all lots of exposure to English. (He watches at least an hour a day)

Hope these ideas help
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank Moorsholm for this useful post:
  #35  
Old 16.12.2010, 22:40
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Backward Step

Quote:
In Swiss public schools, you will have no say in the matter, and the teachers are not accountable for their performance.
... or, for that matter, German, Canadian, American public schools.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 16.12.2010, 22:56
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: At home
Posts: 4,167
Groaned at 208 Times in 133 Posts
Thanked 6,403 Times in 2,719 Posts
Faltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Backward Step

What does "accountable" mean when applied to teachers? The academis result are not exactly something teachers can be accountable for, they are not writing the exams, the students are. Accountable for their teaching? By what standards and even so, that would be accountable to the school as a pedagogical authority, not the parents.
I am not critisizing your concept at all, I just do not understand it. Thanks.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Faltrad for this useful post:
  #37  
Old 16.12.2010, 23:58
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Backward Step

Quote:
View Post
... or, for that matter, German, Canadian, American public schools.
In the US, the parents have a lot more leverage and the teachers have to be a lot more responsive. In those places, those teachers can get fired. Here in Switzerland, teachers are there for life and very rarely get fired, so I have heard and seen some of them thumb their noses at parents.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #38  
Old 17.12.2010, 00:06
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Backward Step

parents .. or .. some parents?
Personally I respect a system that has responsibility for ALL children, not just the few who have parents who make 'demands'. But I do agree that teachers who are ineffective should be identified, supported to improve, and if found wanted despite this - sacked.

My definition of a good teacher might differ from yours though. Is it somebody who inspires or who gets good exam results (.. and by what means). In an ideal world, hopefully both.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 17.12.2010, 00:14
kodokan's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Phoenix AZ, USA
Posts: 1,299
Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post
Thanked 930 Times in 460 Posts
kodokan has a reputation beyond reputekodokan has a reputation beyond reputekodokan has a reputation beyond reputekodokan has a reputation beyond reputekodokan has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Backward Step

Quote:
View Post
In those places, those teachers can get fired. Here in Switzerland, teachers are there for life and very rarely get fired, so I have heard and seen some of them thumb their noses at parents.
I'm sure this goes on somewhere, but I've been nothing but lucky with my kids' teachers here. It's refreshingly different to the UK, where they're so busy fearfully watching their backs against the demands of politics/ league tables/ policy changes/ etc that their focus entirely shifts from the children. Even the best teachers there I came across had a hint of children as statistics rather than individuals.

All my kids' teachers here have been passionate, enthusiastic advocates for what is best for my child(ren). I'm quite sure that if what I wanted (ie, top streaming for my averagely-performing son) was in conflict with what they considered right for the child, there would be a degree of nose-thumbing on their part.

I wouldn't at all want to be thought of as their customer, client, or anyone who had to be appeased, and I don't want their dealings with my kids to be in the context of leverage I could have over their livelihood! I despair at the 'all must have prizes' mentality that's encroached on the UK education system over the last couple of decades.
__________________
'Chance favours only the prepared mind.'
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank kodokan for this useful post:
  #40  
Old 17.12.2010, 00:19
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Backward Step

Quote:
View Post
I'm sure this goes on somewhere, but I've been nothing but lucky with my kids' teachers here. It's refreshingly different to the UK, where they're so busy fearfully watching their backs against the demands of politics/ league tables/ policy changes/ etc that their focus entirely shifts from the children. Even the best teachers there I came across had a hint of children as statistics rather than individuals.

All my kids' teachers here have been passionate, enthusiastic advocates for what is best for my child(ren). I'm quite sure that if what I wanted (ie, top streaming for my averagely-performing son) was in conflict with what they considered right for the child, there would be a degree of nose-thumbing on their part.

I wouldn't at all want to be thought of as their customer, client, or anyone who had to be appeased, and I don't want their dealings with my kids to be in the context of leverage I could have over their livelihood! I despair at the 'all must have prizes' mentality that's encroached on the UK education system over the last couple of decades.

Very, very rare here. Yes, they will be polite and diplomatic, but no, you will not be getting your way with things.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank for this useful post:
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Step by step guide for apartment buying Arya Housing in general 6 05.12.2012 11:26
One step closer swissness Introductions 1 19.11.2010 15:42
Needed step by step advice for self employment nigel xyz Employment 4 25.10.2009 18:57


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 18:35.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0