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  #81  
Old 18.12.2010, 19:05
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Re: Backward Step

We did get passionate, didn't we...I kinda see this as brainstorming on how to do it better here, you see. Or at least for those who are directly involved in the public schoolling as that is what we were discussing. I wouldn't simply go into Swiss schoolling bash, there are many wonderful people, schools and options. My main gripe is that the changes are taking sooo loooonng, too long for some young people to benefit from them right this moment.
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Old 18.12.2010, 19:48
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Re: Backward Step

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So here is the big difference - teachers in private schools communicate and even collaborate with parents. In Swiss schools, as you have said, parents have no say in matters of education.
Which is why my son is so happy at a boarding school, and his grades are excellent.
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  #83  
Old 18.12.2010, 19:59
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Re: Backward Step

My half Swiss half British cousin went to a top public school as a boarder, and has never forgiven his parents for this. My bil went to the same school as a boarder at the same time and loved it. Boarding school does suit some children and some parents, sometimes both. Some kids truly hate it with a vengeance - some thrive. No system suits all. Personally this is an option I could not have even considered. As usual, each to their own.
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Old 18.12.2010, 22:03
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Re: Backward Step

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My half Swiss half British cousin went to a top public school as a boarder, and has never forgiven his parents for this. My bil went to the same school as a boarder at the same time and loved it. Boarding school does suit some children and some parents, sometimes both. Some kids truly hate it with a vengeance - some thrive. No system suits all. Personally this is an option I could not have even considered. As usual, each to their own.
And this acknowledgement that different students may have different needs is exactly what is missing in Swiss educational mentality. As it is, if the square peg isn't fitting a round hole, there may be attempts to shave off the corners, or it is set aside. I have heard of parents being laughed at for questioning a teacher's approach, although some parents have more life experience than the teachers.
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Old 18.12.2010, 23:44
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Re: Backward Step

Phos, you question the teachers qualification and professional judgement all the time just for the sake of it. There is obviously something in your biography you need to work on. What you write is exactly what undermines the dialogue between teachers and parents. The more you lecture the teachers, the less they take you seriously. Fact of life. I never said it was fair, I said it was a fact. You want teachers to be efficient with kids? Try being efficient with teachers, then...
.... and one day, you might realize that "efficiency" is just a pseudo-concept in teaching.

Last edited by Faltrad; 19.12.2010 at 00:12. Reason: English, what else?
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Old 19.12.2010, 04:02
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Re: Backward Step

Hmmmm...I do not think Phos is actually trying to undermine anything, he voices his opinion of how in his experience teachers work here with parents, etc. I agree with him, to some extent, others do as well. The fact that the opinions of parents get taken for a "lecture", patronizingly, the fact somebody dares to question teacher's work and is critized for it in return..why be so personal? Why do some teachers feel personally attacked if somebody voices the need for clarification in the (everywhere else so normal) teacher-parent dialogue? So, anytime a parent has his "wait a minute, is this actually good for my kiddo in the long span" moment, why follow up with "just let us work" as if it was not the parent's kid they were talking about. Teachers nag about parents being disinterested, how many times I have heard that it's the parent's fault thing, when parents are interested and need to check teacher's work because the child does not seem to be benefiting, everyone flips and gets defensive. Double standarts and all.

It is true that if a kid happens to be a slightly different than the expectations and molds ready for them, some people work extra hard to push the child in it..And the way parents with more life experiences who get laughed at, it is not only parents. Teachers do it to eachother, as well. There is a lot going on that one does not see..
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  #87  
Old 19.12.2010, 11:01
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Re: Backward Step

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Phos, you question the teachers qualification and professional judgement all the time just for the sake of it. There is obviously something in your biography you need to work on. What you write is exactly what undermines the dialogue between teachers and parents. The more you lecture the teachers, the less they take you seriously. Fact of life. I never said it was fair, I said it was a fact. You want teachers to be efficient with kids? Try being efficient with teachers, then...
.... and one day, you might realize that "efficiency" is just a pseudo-concept in teaching.

Are you telling me that Swiss teachers are beyond reproach? That they should not be questioned? The problem is that there is no dialog between Swiss teachers and parents. Yes, like you said, teachers may let parents vent, but will ignore any input afterwards. There is a lack transparency.

And your point is parents don't have a choice about it? Wait a second, who appointed you to lord over the lives of children? Based on your post, teachers have taken their authority beyond what is called for. It has gone far beyond merely teaching. You prove the unwillingness of teachers to undergo scrutiny.

It's not my biography that needs to go under scrutiny, it's the biography of the teachers. What kind of background, experience and education puts them in that position of authority? You sound like teachers see themselves as clergy. And you demonstrate they relish in the "power" of their position. No, teachers should not be sacred cows.
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Old 19.12.2010, 11:04
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Re: Backward Step

Sorry but rewording of my messages and attacks against persons makes it impossible for me to answer further. Have a nice day.
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Old 19.12.2010, 11:14
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Re: Backward Step

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Sorry but rewording of my messages and attacks against persons makes it impossible for me to answer further. Have a nice day.
That's right. This is not about Phos. It's about Swiss schools and its teachers.
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Old 19.12.2010, 11:17
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Re: Backward Step

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Sorry but rewording my messages and attacks against persons makes it impossible for me to answer further. Have a nice day.
with all due respect Faltrad, what an earth!! What attacks? Odile mentioned a shouting match in an earlier post.. there is no shouting match just a discussion, no? Are you taking this too personally I wonder.. and why?

Even having an EF discussion on Swiss education leaves me feeling the same as I did when I was dealing with my son's teachers: terribly confused

head, wall, if anyone needs me you know where i am
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Old 19.12.2010, 11:24
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Re: Backward Step

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with all due respect Faltrad, what an earth!! What attacks? Odile mentioned a shouting match in an earlier post.. there is no shouting match just a discussion, no? Are you taking this too personally I wonder.. and why?

Even having an EF discussion on Swiss education leaves me feeling the same as I did when I was dealing with my son's teachers: terribly confused

head, wall, if anyone needs me you know where i am

Clearly, they see the examination as an attack. All the while, the rest are trying to engage in dialog.

I guess I've become the lightning rod for them given that I have posted some direct comments. But it will not work for their cause, as there are some real issues they have to confront.
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Old 19.12.2010, 11:45
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Re: Backward Step

is there any sort of non-quantitative physics ? X - D

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Yeah, it's a shame that they don't teach quantitative physics in kindergarten here in Switzerland.
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Old 19.12.2010, 12:16
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Re: Backward Step

I can't see how attacking 'teachers' as a group and lumping them all in together, is any nicer than blaming 'parents' or 'children' for the problems.

Personally, I'd like to think that if I allow my children's teachers enough trust and space to do their job, and keep an open dialogue, and appear to be responding when asked, and support my child to remain as polite and clear about their own needs in this process...then it will hopefully all come good in the end...

My mother always says: "You are your child's best advocate". Her other favourite saying is "All children have special needs"....she works with children from 0-6. I've found these both very worthwhile pieces of advice.

You cannot realistically expect a teacher, who is also a human being attempting to be good at their chosen profession, to be 'everything to everybody'. Children come in all shapes and sizes, as do adults. What 'clicks' for one child does not 'click' for another...

However, I do go back to the original comment, about a seeming lack of emphasis on early childhood education, and the gradual (or quite dramatic) piling on of more pressure each year.

This is exactly what Dr Maria Montessori described 100 years ago, and I was interested to observe that it seems to not have changed a huge lot here whereas in Australia we do seem to have much more emphasis on the importance of 'early intervention' and 'early childhood education'...

Maybe it's a new thing (the situation has changed dramatically in the last 20 years in Australia and the UK)...maybe it's just a vague impression that's not based on reality...

The 'extreme' of this in my opinion, is Steiner/Waldorf education, where they do not put any emphasis on academics until the child is 6-7 years old. This is the complete opposite of Montessori where we begin very solid foundations for reading and writing from age 3...so if you are looking for an in-depth approach to early childhood 'academics' maybe you can go in that direction.

However, on the other hand, I think most kids manage to meet the 'standard', and catch up on lost time around perhaps age 9-10...who knows ?

One thing is clear, you can't just take the methods that work in high school, and apply them to primary school, or primary school and then apply them to early childhood - the learning styles, behaviour and psychology of children are very different for each age group, so what works for one age group does not work for another...

Anyway, as we move forward in this discussion, can I remind people that we do have quite a lot of forum members who are teachers, from all various backgrounds, and making general statements about 'teachers' as a whole could easily be taken as a personal attack - although I suppose certainly in my culture we love to make general snide remarks about bankers, politicians, mechanics, taxi-drivers, IT workers, Architects and Engineers...

I work with a perfectly lovely pair of Swiss trained and experienced teachers....
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Old 19.12.2010, 12:34
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Re: Backward Step

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I can't see how attacking 'teachers' as a group and lumping them all in together, is any nicer than blaming 'parents' or 'children' for the problems.
I haven't seen anyone doing that, myself included. We are discussing the Swiss public educational system. I think it's more of defensiveness on part of some, but given that they are purportedly to be about intellectual development, one would think they should have the intellectual ability to reply appropriately.




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....
This is exactly what Dr Maria Montessori described 100 years ago,
'...

....
The 'extreme' of this in my opinion, is Steiner/Waldorf education, where they do not put any emphasis on academics until the child is 6-7 years old. ....
I've also noticed the proliferation of theories in Swiss schools. One year, someone has an idea of identifying students by personality types, the next year there is talk of changing the curriculum of the grade school kids to fit some standard. The French curriculum may change to some sort of yearly recurring process reusing the same material, or change to something where emphasis is on memorization.

The point is, there is sure a lot of theoretical approaches being practiced. And as parents, we aren't told about these, as if we are not smart enough to understand them. But we do know it is to keep us out of the discussion, lest it comes to light that they themselves do not clearly understand what they are doing.


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However, on the other hand, I think most kids manage to meet the 'standard', and catch up on lost time around perhaps age 9-10...who knows ?
As for the early years, we do see a heavy emphasis on socialization. In fact, in many ways, Swiss education appears more like a process of socialization than human potential development.
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Old 19.12.2010, 14:25
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Re: Backward Step

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Anyway, as we move forward in this discussion, can I remind people that we do have quite a lot of forum members who are teachers, from all various backgrounds, and making general statements about 'teachers' as a whole could easily be taken as a personal attack - although I suppose certainly in my culture we love to make general snide remarks about bankers, politicians, mechanics, taxi-drivers, IT workers, Architects and Engineers...

I work with a perfectly lovely pair of Swiss trained and experienced teachers....
I guess they are used to remarks like this. After all everybody went to school and therefore is by nature an expert in education, especially of the one of foreign country.
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Old 19.12.2010, 15:03
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Re: Backward Step

You've just touched on something very relevant here. Most Swiss teachers (and most anywhere) have not worked abroad and maybe unaware that there are great differences in educational systems. Parents coming from abroad, where things are done quite differently - may themselves not be aware of the differences- and expect things here to be similar to 'back home'. And some sort of vicious circle may easily get established - the parents question the teacher's methods, s/he find him/herself unfairly criticized and gives negative vibes - and so on. I totally agree that it is the norm here for teachers to get on with it and be trusted, and that they are not used to being challenged. If they have spent much time and effort, way above the norm, to help your child integrate, catch up, etc - I can see how they could feel aggrieved by what they might see as unfair criticism. Perhaps it would be useful for foreign parents to understand this a bit better from the start- so that they can try and think how to best approach any difficult issues with Swiss teachers who are not aware of 'where they are coming from'. Not sure I explain myself very well - hope you understand the gist. I can feel a good book coming on here - there are many books on the issues of misunderstanding in business terms in multi-national companies - but one on education would be excellent.

I live on the French border, and the 2 systems are vastly different. if you think the Swiss system is 'dry' - try the French system, where learning by heart, without any kind of critical analysis and manipulation- is imho so out of date.

Yes, lets keep the discussion going, without any kind of personal attacks please. Thanks.
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Old 19.12.2010, 16:03
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Re: Backward Step

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I guess they are used to remarks like this. After all everybody went to school and therefore is by nature an expert in education, especially of the one of foreign country.
We are experts on education MC and I are both experienced teachers in Switzerland and in our home countries. I think I can speak for MC too when I say that I, as a teacher, welcome parental input and do not see it as criticism or interference but as valuable input which allows for essential/ important insight into a child/student.

Two of my son's teachers I quite liked, they were very nice women and I had mostly a pleasant relationship with them; however, that has nothing do with the fact that they were unable to teach effectively and were failing my son.

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You've just touched on something very relevant here. Most Swiss teachers (and most anywhere) have not worked abroad and maybe unaware that there are great differences in educational systems. Parents coming from abroad, where things are done quite differently - may themselves not be aware of the differences- and expect things here to be similar to 'back home'. And some sort of vicious circle may easily get established - the parents question the teacher's methods, s/he find him/herself unfairly criticized and gives negative vibes - and so on. I totally agree that it is the norm here for teachers to get on with it and be trusted, and that they are not used to being challenged. If they have spent much time and effort, way above the norm, to help your child integrate, catch up, etc - I can see how they could feel aggrieved by what they might see as unfair criticism. Perhaps it would be useful for foreign parents to understand this a bit better from the start- so that they can try and think how to best approach any difficult issues with Swiss teachers who are not aware of 'where they are coming from'. Not sure I explain myself very well - hope you understand the gist. I can feel a good book coming on here - there are many books on the issues of misunderstanding in business terms in multi-national companies - but one on education would be excellent.

I live on the French border, and the 2 systems are vastly different. if you think the Swiss system is 'dry' - try the French system, where learning by heart, without any kind of critical analysis and manipulation- is imho so out of date.

Yes, lets keep the discussion going, without any kind of personal attacks please. Thanks.
It really has nothing at all to do with being in a foreign country. I was in this country for 10 years so was fully aware of all the differences and considered Switzerland my home, after all, up to now, I have lived in CH longer than anywhere else. I love many things about Switzerland and am still connected to the place, will be back next Summer for July and August: the whole of the school holidays.

I have asked this question already but no-one has answered - please quote and show me where in this thread are the personal attacks and from whom.. it is Sunday after all, and maybe I am just being terribly slow
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  #98  
Old 19.12.2010, 22:52
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Re: Backward Step

I don't see any personal attacks, either, sorry if anyone feels this way..Nobody is trying to say Swiss teachers in general are bad. Some teachers here are attrocious, that was some were saying, and there is a little one can do if one happens to be unlucky and get him/her for their kids or as colleagues. If you share opinions, there always will be a certain degree of generalization. Most people I have met in school were great, did what they thought was good or what they were crammed to do in schools. Maybe we shouldn't nag about teachers but more about their training, to start with. I went through education that equipped me being flexible and not fear challenges, I am not sure what is happening here at uni. On the other hand, teacher's training back there was more about a mission, a life time commitment, responsibility for kids and their life which is daunting and often overdone there (besides nobody gets paid, really, so hurray for schools here in that aspect and the whole idea of the "reseau"). People do what they are allowed to do here, what is expected, etc. People's work in schools here is not easy since rules seem to change a lot while you are careful to stick to the rules at the same time, schools have different directives, etc etc. Parents would be more understanding if they knew. But I think parents in general are very nice here. I wish they were let participate more.

If we are going to get all hurt now, and sulk..there is going to be even less dialogue. I think it is not always hysterical parents who should tone it down a notch, but maybe teachers who stomp and say some foreigners aren't gona be telling me what to do. When, sometimes they came to him/her respectful, full of hope, maybe with some stuff to share and learn, by all. It's this omnipresent suspition people have here towards anything that comes from abroad. Sometimes it is not actually evil, you know.

I miss humility with some profs, which is a bad sign about a teacher. A teacher should want to learn. If one accepts there is no more to learn (about a kid, from parents, etc.) then it's an end stop. Why feel cornered, when encountering new clients, new students to work with, with new expectations and those who will not be easily intimidated. The high percentage of foreigners here will most probably push for some changes, no matter who is refusing it..Not all have the cash for international schools or like the bubble. But why fear the challenge the new population brings for a teacher here or face it with hostility, does not help anyone.

If the request would be for parents to be easy on teachers, what do we, as parents have at stake? Only our kid's future? And one gets laughed about that? Cmon now...
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Old 19.12.2010, 23:03
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Re: Backward Step

Swisstree, I was talking about the majority of foreign parents here, who are not teachers and whose experience of 'the norm' comes from 'back home' and may expect things to be the same here. For instance the fact that a class in usually a 'whole' in CH - compared to a Tutor group and setting for individual subjects. If a kid moves at a later stage, this is a disaster for them. In the UK they would be able for instance to be in Set 1 for maths, physics and chemistry, but be withdrawn from Foreign language lessons and English - to follow a suitable integration EFL class. This is just not possible in the same way here. In the UK again, a student could continue to do say, IT, Design, maths and physics for AS, then drop one for A'Levels. This is not at all possible in CH, where all subjects have to continue, and all subjects need to be passed to get the Bac/Matu. A parent who is not fully aware of those and many other differences may well not understand why what they normally would expect, is not possible within the system here. Similarly, a Swiss teacher is not normally aware that other countries to have vastly different ways of doing things - and therefore be un-necessarily 'thrown' by requests, and respond in a seemingly negative manner. I personally much prefer the UK system btw. which would have suited me much better.

Last edited by Odile; 19.12.2010 at 23:16.
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Old 19.12.2010, 23:48
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Re: Backward Step

Hmmm...I am not sure if it is only about two different systems here, Swiss and the other. I don't think it is only about a cultural difference, etc. It might be that what seems inefficient to us (as you pointed out earlier, yes), is actually an active and well intentioned way to protect the local system and local kids against the new things, which don't gel with the old system or would make it fall apart, some people fear. The way profs might be unresponsive is because being responsive is somehow seen as giving in the foreign way. Maybe a strong feel to protect what's traditional and native? As if the local kids didn't have the aptitude to compete, or there is this myth of all foreign kids pushed to write at 4 and that's how it all starts, accepting little changes and oops, now we all have to get drilled at 4, instead of playing. It's just a hypothesis, really, somehow makes sense to me. It does explain the irrational and selective deaf ear to some parents, though. I am just not sure how long it is feasible to want to keep the class entirely homogenous rather than putting pressure on teachers to be more flexible and multitask. Maybe it is just hard to implement changes, since the cantons, communes and schools themselves have such a long tradition of being independent, doing their own thing and not letting anyone dictate...So, it all maybe comes back to politics.
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