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Old 27.01.2011, 14:39
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Re: Mothers immunize your sons!

Marketing people generally regard ethics as an alternative sales area to thuthex.
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Old 27.01.2011, 14:40
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Re: Mothers immunize your sons!

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OK I'll rename it 'No practice 100% safe sex' I will write a book about self-pleasuring techniques and sell it. I just feel really sorry for young people nowadays. AIDS has really messed everything up.
Que? There have always been and always will be STDs. That's good news for the pharma industry as they're not going to run out of things to invent vaccines against. And it's bad news for people who take unnecessary risks. Plus ca change...
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Old 27.01.2011, 14:50
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Re: Mothers immunize your sons!

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Que? There have always been and always will be STDs. That's good news for the pharma industry as they're not going to run out of things to invent vaccines against.

Yes, and
  • we're always going to be hungry, so that's good news for the food industry
  • we're always going to need clothes, so that's good news for the clothing industry


Why is it that big bad Pharma is so hated?

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And it's bad news for people who take unnecessary risks. Plus ca change...
Firstly, that's somewhat simplistic. Woman falls for man, man falls for woman. Woman has always played it safe and decided never to have sex before marriage. Man, well, he's a man, what can I say?

He's a carrier, she isn't. But they are in love, happy and get married. She gets HPV and cancer. Tough shit hey!

Secondly, measles, mumps, rubella, polio, smallpox are not STDs last time I checked.
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Old 27.01.2011, 15:16
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Re: Mothers immunize your sons!

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Yes, and
  • we're always going to be hungry, so that's good news for the food industry
  • we're always going to need clothes, so that's good news for the clothing industry


Why is it that big bad Pharma is so hated?
What exactly in my post was hateful towards big pharma?

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Firstly, that's somewhat simplistic. Woman falls for man, man falls for woman. Woman has always played it safe and decided never to have sex before marriage. Man, well, he's a man, what can I say?

He's a carrier, she isn't. But they are in love, happy and get married. She gets HPV and cancer. Tough shit hey!
What exactly are you getting worked up about? Taking care is about reducing probabilities, not about absolute prevention. For years family planning folks have been telling us that oral sex is relatively safe so do it and now we are told that it isn't. Paradigm change.

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Secondly, measles, mumps, rubella, polio, smallpox are not STDs last time I checked.
exactly, hence my response to AIDS has really messed everything up, which I didn't think was relevant in this discussion.
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Old 27.01.2011, 15:29
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Re: Mothers immunize your sons!

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What exactly in my post was hateful towards big pharma?
Your comment about it being good news for Pharma - especially in the context of this thread - implies that they want people to be ill so that they can invent medicines.

You'd be surprised how many people believe that Pharma companies have cures for cancer and diabetes "tucked" away in their laboratories, or only develop treatments which treat the symptoms and not the condition.

But I digress. I inferred from your post that you have a cynical view of how the Pharma industry makes its money, which is very disingenuous to many of the people I know, who are actually proud to work in Pharma companies that have high ethical standards and want to help people fight the diseases that kill or impair their lives.

Your post also followed on from others on this thread.

So I asked why is it that Pharma is so hated.

If that was an incorrect inference on my part, then I apologise.

The part about unnecessary risks, however, is just plain wrong, unless you want to live in a sterile environment all your life, never go out, never do anything. I agree that you can try to reduce risks - indeed taking Gardasil would reduce the risk of HPV infection - but saying that someone got polio or smallpox before the vaccine was available was taking an unnecessary risk is wrong.
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  #46  
Old 27.01.2011, 16:17
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Re: Mothers immunize your sons!

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Yes, and
  • we're always going to be hungry, so that's good news for the food industry
  • we're always going to need clothes, so that's good news for the clothing industry


Why is it that big bad Pharma is so hated?
Yeah - what about those bastards in the funeral business. Making money out of death. How immoral is that?

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Firstly, that's somewhat simplistic. Woman falls for man, man falls for woman. Woman has always played it safe and decided never to have sex before marriage. Man, well, he's a man, what can I say?

He's a carrier, she isn't. But they are in love, happy and get married. She gets HPV and cancer...
Which is why my daughters have been/will be vaccinated.
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  #47  
Old 27.01.2011, 16:21
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Re: Mothers immunize your sons!

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Yeah - what about those bastards in the funeral business. Making money out of death. How immoral is that?
Not only that, but one council is planning to use the heat generated from the crematorium to warm the local swimming pool.
I think it's a bloody brilliant idea.

Oh yeah, my daughter had the Gardasil too, she hasn't died or developed autism as a result.
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Old 27.01.2011, 17:02
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Re: Mothers immunize your sons!

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The part about unnecessary risks, however, is just plain wrong, unless you want to live in a sterile environment all your life, never go out, never do anything. I agree that you can try to reduce risks - indeed taking Gardasil would reduce the risk of HPV infection - but saying that someone got polio or smallpox before the vaccine was available was taking an unnecessary risk is wrong.
I was referring to what is sometimes known as the "Volvo effect". Volvo were among the first car makers to put a lot of extra effort into making their cars safer and did a lot of research to find ways of doing that. As a result their cars became safer. But road deaths didn't decrease to the degree expected because people factored the perceived extra safety into their driving habits and so had more accidents.

An HPV vaccine may protect against HPV, but it can also have the unwanted side-effect of making young people believe they are now safer and hence encourage them to take more risks and so expose them to a greater risk of contracting some other STD.
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  #49  
Old 27.01.2011, 17:12
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Re: Mothers immunize your sons!

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Your comment about it being good news for Pharma - especially in the context of this thread - implies that they want people to be ill so that they can invent medicines.
Well that's true isn't it? Just as undertakers want people to die or shoe shops want people's shoes to wear out. But that doesn't make it an unethical thing to want.

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You'd be surprised how many people believe that Pharma companies have cures for cancer and diabetes "tucked" away in their laboratories, or only develop treatments which treat the symptoms and not the condition.


The former is nonsense of course, but the latter may be true in some cases. Sometimes symptoms are easier to treat than causes. Look at headache pills for example. Or you could argue that by brushing my teeth I am treating the symptoms of my teeth getting dirty but not the cause. But what's wrong with that?

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But I digress. I inferred from your post that you have a cynical view of how the Pharma industry makes its money, which is very disingenuous to many of the people I know, who are actually proud to work in Pharma companies that have high ethical standards and want to help people fight the diseases that kill or impair their lives.


There are good and bad people in all industries and I am sure there are also cynics in the pharma industry. But that's the individuals, not the phenomenon as a whole.

What I am trying to say is that the phrama industry, just like the toothpaste industry or the shoe industry is neither good nor bad but just a cog in a bigger system that is repsonding to what the market needs or what it thinks it can sell. Individuals have a conscience but a collective organisation doesn't. Every product the industry throws on the market should be judged on merit, whether it's some new ipad or a miracle vaccine.
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Old 27.01.2011, 17:24
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Re: Mothers immunize your sons!

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Well that's true isn't it? Just as undertakers want people to die or shoe shops want people's shoes to wear out. But that doesn't make it an unethical thing to want.
I would suggest that wanting more people to get cancer is an unethical position for a company engage in looking for a cure. The next logical step would be making people sicker... It implies a desire for people's ill health.

However, the reverse is true. Pharma companies look for groups of patients and try to bundle them up to find a cure/treatment for the greatest number of patients to try to maximise ROI - simple business practice, but wholly different - IMO - from actually wanting people to be ill.

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The former is nonsense of course, but the latter may be true in some cases. Sometimes symptoms are easier to treat than causes. Look at headache pills for example. Or you could argue that by brushing my teeth I am treating the symptoms of my teeth getting dirty but not the cause. But what's wrong with that?
That misses the point I was making. Yes sometimes it is easier to treat symptoms, but equally sometimes that is all you can treat - something that people who like to beat up on the Pharma industry completely fail to understand or accept.

If a company could find a cure for an incurable and/or deadly disease, even just the common cold, it would be on the market, and, doubtless it would have a price premium, but it would be there.

If you know the cause of all headaches, then do some research and get your product on the market. The point is that we actually know little about the specifics of how the human body works, and even less about how drugs work, because it is such a complex set of processes that keeps us ticking along.
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  #51  
Old 27.01.2011, 17:37
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Re: Mothers immunize your sons!

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I would suggest that wanting more people to get cancer is an unethical position for a company engage in looking for a cure. The next logical step would be making people sicker... It implies a desire for people's ill health.
I disagree. An undertaken can be pleased when people die, but that is still miles away from killing people. A dentist may be happy if he finds a patient with bad teeth, but that is still miles away from actually treating patients incorrectly so they get bad teeth.

Or are you trying to tell me that what pharma companies really desire most of all is a world without any illness and hence a world in which they are not needed?

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However, the reverse is true. Pharma companies look for groups of patients and try to bundle them up to find a cure/treatment for the greatest number of patients
As I said previously. An individual can be pleased or can desire something. A group of people (such as for example a pharma company) does not have a comon mind and can hence not want anything or be pleased about anything. Different people may be in there for different reasons. A researcher may be happy that he's getting additional funds for his pet reserach project, but cares about sales and profits only as far as they serve the things he cares more about. For a marketing guy it's probably the other way arond.
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Old 27.01.2011, 20:42
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Re: Mothers immunize your sons!

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What exactly are you getting worked up about? Taking care is about reducing probabilities, not about absolute prevention. For years family planning folks have been telling us that oral sex is relatively safe so do it and now we are told that it isn't. Paradigm change.
<]
The other surprising thing about HPV (on the youtube clip) is that men are more at risk of contracting oral cancer than women. Usually across the board it is women who are more at risk with STDs

I know that STD's can have devastating effects I used to help treat children born to syphilitic parents. However, with respect to AIDS I think that it really affected the western psyche, because we thought that we had conquered STD's just take a course of antibiotics etc. Now it is back to this can kill, we can manage it but we don't really have a cure.

With regard to pharmaceutical companies and profit, it is also governments or insurance companies who assess risk versus cost. the reason that the vaccine was not made available in the UK was a cost risk analysis, I think that it is the same with insurance companies. The death rate from HPV cancer is still quite low, so not cost effective enough to offer the vaccine to boys. If I was a boy I would complain that I am being discriminated against.
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  #53  
Old 28.01.2011, 11:11
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Re: Mothers immunize your sons!

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I know that STD's can have devastating effects I used to help treat children born to syphilitic parents. However, with respect to AIDS I think that it really affected the western psyche, because we thought that we had conquered STD's just take a course of antibiotics etc. Now it is back to this can kill, we can manage it but we don't really have a cure.
AIDS is not the only STD we can't cure. I'm sure we'll have a cure eventually but then I'm equally sure that a new STD will pop up just in time and the cycle will continue. Maybe AIDS got more attention than other diseases and caused many people to wake up, and in that way AIDS was special, but as far as I can see that was the only thing that made AIDS special.
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  #54  
Old 28.01.2011, 11:18
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Re: Mothers immunize your sons!

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With regard to pharmaceutical companies and profit, it is also governments or insurance companies who assess risk versus cost. the reason that the vaccine was not made available in the UK was a cost risk analysis, I think that it is the same with insurance companies. The death rate from HPV cancer is still quite low, so not cost effective enough to offer the vaccine to boys. If I was a boy I would complain that I am being discriminated against.
I wasn't aware that it wasn't availeble in the UK, but then I also thought that this was a voluntary thing anyway, so if you want it you pay for it, and so cost/benefit analyses don't come into it. I don't know what the rate of spread is like or the risk of infection but guess these must be much lower than AIDS so it's not as if we're risking an epidemic any time soon. Apparently with something like measles, even a small number of unvaccinated people can pose a risk and that's why that type of vaccination ought to be looked at seriously. I don't know if you can really compare that to HPV.
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Old 28.01.2011, 11:25
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Re: Mothers immunize your sons!

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Gee this all kicked off. Actually I was more interested in the fact that I high proportion of straight men are getting throat cancer from this, which leads me to a conclusion, but I guess that's just the way my mind works

Nothing in life is risk-free not even safe-sex it seems, they should rename it safer-sex.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/12132990

Explicit BBC 3


Did you watch that whole program? I thought it was one of the most poorly made BBC informative programs I've ever seen. The girl was actually awful.

It was titled 'Is Oral sex safe' but really should have been called 'Can you get HPV from oral sex'

It is more likely to get HSV from receiving oral sex than HPV!
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Old 28.01.2011, 15:34
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Re: Mothers immunize your sons!

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The death rate from HPV cancer is still quite low, so not cost effective enough to offer the vaccine to boys. If I was a boy I would complain that I am being discriminated against.
An honest open question: Do we know whether the vaccine actually works on boys? Have any boys anywhere ever been given it?
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Old 28.01.2011, 16:13
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Re: Mothers immunize your sons!

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Did you watch that whole program? I thought it was one of the most poorly made BBC informative programs I've ever seen. The girl was actually awful.

It was titled 'Is Oral sex safe' but really should have been called 'Can you get HPV from oral sex'

It is more likely to get HSV from receiving oral sex than HPV!
Yes, I did watch the whole program I thought it one of the better ones recently, because it taught me (and it seems alot of other people) something that they didn't know in a sensitive and respectful manner.

However at the same time I saw two other programs- one about temperature by an ex-Cambridge grad and another about underage people being exposed to porn on the web, they were among the worst that I have ever seen. The first was at a primary education level, the other seemed to focus more on the shock and surprise of unrepresentative tut-tutting adults. I didn't know that any other STD could cause death or cancer except AIDS and HPV.

But most of all I feel sorry for young adults, many full of raging hormones, expectations and pressures from society. Now even if they are practicing safe sex they have this to deal with.

In my day , the majority of children enjoyed staying children for longer; they matured sexually at a later age and a condom, (when they had the gumption to buy one), would pretty much cover everything. Also, the emphasis and focus was on love in relationships, handling the emotions of the first feelings of attraction, heartbreaks etc. I remeber Donny Osmond Puppy Love songs etc. Now, kids buy sexually explicit CD's, Walmart have a new line of make-up for children and children are trafficked for sex.


I think that schools should do more to discuss the emotional side of underage relationships, so that the focus is not all on sexual acts.

Some children today already have STD's and some are HIV+. School policy (in light of AIDS and teenage sex) was to advocate safe sex.
The majority of teens now practice safer-sex, they are more responsible it seems than baby boomers, where infection rates are rising.

The BBC program pushed home to me the fact that even safe-sex is not that safe. Thank goodness Obama has pushed into law that children must have medical insurance. and thank goodness there are vaccines available, even though I am still wary of any new vaccine.

I honestly think that we should be questioning the type of society that we provide for teens and young people as much as we question the pharmaceutical industry.
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Old 28.01.2011, 17:16
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Re: Mothers immunize your sons!

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An honest open question: Do we know whether the vaccine actually works on boys? Have any boys anywhere ever been given it?
Good question - I don't but the vaccine isn't sex-specific. If it is effective on girls why not boys? Unless there is a specific type of HPV for responsible for anal cancer, another for throat cancer different from that cervical cancer? I saw this - I'm watching newstream on Cairo but would be interested if to hear of any more info on different strains for different types of cancer

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  • HPV, and in particular HPV 16, seems to play a role in the development of a significant number of cancers of the mouth and throat.
  • Oral sex increases your risk of acquiring an HPV infection in your mouth or throat.
  • Since the vast majority of HPV associated throat cancers seem to be caused by HPV 16, it is possible that the HPV vaccine might be useful for prevention.
  • Although study results are mixed, it seems possible that smoking and alcohol use may interact with HPV infection to increase a person's risk of cancer.
http://std.about.com/od/hpv/a/hpvoralcancer.htm
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Old 28.01.2011, 17:25
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Re: Mothers immunize your sons!

Amogles - I think we were talking at cross purposes re the ethics of wanting people ill/dead.

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An honest open question: Do we know whether the vaccine actually works on boys? Have any boys anywhere ever been given it?
The vaccine targets the HPV virus alone. It does not act on the human body, so it should work in both boys and girls. The key issue is to give it before first exposure to HPV to ensure a full(er) immune reaction.

Indeed, vaccinologists will argue that for true herd immunity, to irradiate a virus, you need to vaccinate both boys and girls. Given that it is boys who "spread it around" - in more ways than one - it also makes sense to reduce their chances of being carriers.

The vaccine is also indicated for both sexes - albeit for genital warts in boys - however, governments have to control costs, hence only girls have been included in government-run vaccination programmes.

I think one or two governments - but can't remember which - have included boys in their programmes.
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Old 03.02.2011, 14:44
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Re: Mothers immunize your sons!

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The vaccine targets the HPV virus alone. It does not act on the human body, so it should work in both boys and girls. The key issue is to give it before first exposure to HPV to ensure a full(er) immune reaction.

Indeed, vaccinologists will argue that for true herd immunity, to irradiate a virus, you need to vaccinate both boys and girls. Given that it is boys who "spread it around" - in more ways than one - it also makes sense to reduce their chances of being carriers.

The vaccine is also indicated for both sexes - albeit for genital warts in boys - however, governments have to control costs, hence only girls have been included in government-run vaccination programmes.

I think one or two governments - but can't remember which - have included boys in their programmes.
I was thinking something similar.

Let us assume that it is cost implications that are preventing a more widespread vaccination of boys.

I don't know exactly how the virus spreads, but if it is similar to AIDS, then it can be tranmitted between men and between women and men but not really between women. Therefore if you vaccinate only men/boys you have the same effect as vaccinating everybody but at half the cost, whereas if you vaccinate only women/girls you stop hetrosexual transmission but not male homosexual transmission. It would therefore seem to me logical to vaccinate boys but not girls. The fact that the opposite is not being done led me to suspect there might be a possibility that for some reason the vaccine doesn't work on boys.
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