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Old 07.07.2011, 21:22
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Re: Experience dealing with ADHD/ADD in CH?

Wow... this thread has gone WAY off. Kind of as if a bunch of ADHD people got together to have a conversation about the pros and cons of Gruyeres cheese and ended up talking about "ooooh look! a Ferris Wheel!"
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Old 07.07.2011, 21:25
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Re: Experience dealing with ADHD/ADD in CH?

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Wow... this thread has gone WAY off. Kind of as if a bunch of ADHD people got together to have a conversation about the pros and cons of Gruyeres cheese and ended up talking about "ooooh look! a Ferris Wheel!"
Hmm, I love the idea of cheese and ferris wheels.
Can I use my iPhone as well whilst riding the ferris wheel so I can keep up on this thread?
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Old 07.07.2011, 21:36
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LOL
Yes exactly that gives the power to detect errrr hold on let me calculate oh yeah nothing
Nothing from nothing is nothing.

And since type 2 error is the inverse of power, it blows up. poof.
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Old 09.07.2011, 14:46
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Re: Experience dealing with ADHD/ADD in CH?

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If you had read my message thoroughly you would have seen that I have worked with more than one person.

Once the medication was removed the side effects disappeared. If you are so knowledgeable you would know that there are side effects to not only ritalin.

I can think of no better qualifications than a person such as myself.

I suppose I can admit a mistake by saying disability. My goodness are you telling me that if I am labelled as disordered that everything is fine.
First of all, to get a diagnosis, you DO need to go to a psychiatrist.

My experiences of ritalin with my son were, as you say, not fantastic. True it made him quieter for a few hours and he got better results at school. But the side effects ( sleep problems, lack of appetite, aggressiveness as the drug was wearing off), plus the fact that the underlying problem was still there made me very wary.

Had I had better support and been more aware of the alternatives available,then I would have chosen an alternative therapy such as heil eurthyme, cognitive therapy or neuro (whatever ) feedback. Have had friends who refused to use ritalin and their children turned out ok in the long term.

Perhaps though, an adult might benefit more from the use of drugs as then they are responsible for their own choice and their development would not be affected.

Have heard recently that there is a centre in the children's hospital in Biel specialising in ADHD with a choice of therapies both medical and alternative.
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Old 09.07.2011, 15:04
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Re: Experience dealing with ADHD/ADD in CH?

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That is, quite simply, nonsence ! I hope your doctor's knowledge of medicine is better than his kinowledge of the health system !! A disabled persons medical bills are paid for by their normal medical insurer.
Actually - not nonsense. A disabled person's medical bills are paid for by the invalid insurance not the regular medical insurance. Children being diagnosed with ADHD have to be diagnosed and registered before they are 9 years old.
(From experience)
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Old 09.07.2011, 15:15
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Re: Experience dealing with ADHD/ADD in CH?

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First of all, to get a diagnosis, you DO need to go to a psychiatrist.

My experiences of ritalin with my son were, as you say, not fantastic. True it made him quieter for a few hours and he got better results at school. But the side effects ( sleep problems, lack of appetite, aggressiveness as the drug was wearing off), plus the fact that the underlying problem was still there made me very wary.

Had I had better support and been more aware of the alternatives available,then I would have chosen an alternative therapy such as heil eurthyme, cognitive therapy or neuro (whatever ) feedback. Have had friends who refused to use ritalin and their children turned out ok in the long term.

Perhaps though, an adult might benefit more from the use of drugs as then they are responsible for their own choice and their development would not be affected.

Have heard recently that there is a centre in the children's hospital in Biel specialising in ADHD with a choice of therapies both medical and alternative.
First of all, it is psychiatry with a very good marketing and promotion campaigne that has trained us to believe that we need to go to them for a diagnosis, to believe that there is a need for a diagnosis and that the only solution is medication.

Studies are showing exactly what you report that initially there may be some change but on a long term not. Also, studies are showing that there is no real change. Also there are studies showing that kids with these characteristics turn out okay.

This is what I tried to do to provide information that there is an alternative but when I dis I got flamed. It was suggested that I had an ulterior motive.
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Old 09.07.2011, 22:09
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First of all, it is psychiatry with a very good marketing and promotion campaigne that has trained us to believe that we need to go to them for a diagnosis, to believe that there is a need for a diagnosis and that the only solution is medication.

Studies are showing exactly what you report that initially there may be some change but on a long term not. Also, studies are showing that there is no real change. Also there are studies showing that kids with these characteristics turn out okay.

This is what I tried to do to provide information that there is an alternative but when I dis I got flamed. It was suggested that I had an ulterior motive.

Many psychiatrists would like to do therapy, but insurance (in the US at least), won't pay for it. So they do med checks. The marketing you speak of is more a function of pharma and insurance.

In the US, people have "formal" diagnoses, especially for their kids because that's the only way that kids, who may do better with individualized learning plans, etc., have access to such plans. In part, I think the medicalization of ADD etc., is more for that reason than anything. Part of the reason that ADD is a "disorder" is so that people who need accomodations in learning siuations for the most part can get them.

As for medication..not everyone needs it, and there are children who seem to grow out of their issues. But there are also instances of kids who were failing in school, were treated for ADD/ADHD and ended up doing well.

As you said, you can find pretty much anything reported in a study. There are also studies showing that impulse control is an issue for some with ADD/ADHD, and can lead to drug or alcohol abuse if untreated.

Finding the right medication is difficult, tskes patience. These meds are not a babysitter, and are not a substitute for parenting or teaching in the classroom.

I think it's important to show that there are a range of options, the diagnostic process is somewhat subjective, and even treatment is subjective. Not every treatment works for every person.
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Old 09.07.2011, 22:40
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Re: Experience dealing with ADHD/ADD in CH?

maybe OT but I love this:

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Old 09.07.2011, 22:56
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Lol. Lucy as shrink.
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Old 10.07.2011, 00:06
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Re: Experience dealing with ADHD/ADD in CH?

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Many psychiatrists would like to do therapy, but insurance (in the US at least), won't pay for it. So they do med checks. The marketing you speak of is more a function of pharma and insurance.

In the US, people have "formal" diagnoses, especially for their kids because that's the only way that kids, who may do better with individualized learning plans, etc., have access to such plans. In part, I think the medicalization of ADD etc., is more for that reason than anything. Part of the reason that ADD is a "disorder" is so that people who need accomodations in learning siuations for the most part can get them.

As for medication..not everyone needs it, and there are children who seem to grow out of their issues. But there are also instances of kids who were failing in school, were treated for ADD/ADHD and ended up doing well.

As you said, you can find pretty much anything reported in a study. There are also studies showing that impulse control is an issue for some with ADD/ADHD, and can lead to drug or alcohol abuse if untreated.

Finding the right medication is difficult, tskes patience. These meds are not a babysitter, and are not a substitute for parenting or teaching in the classroom.

I think it's important to show that there are a range of options, the diagnostic process is somewhat subjective, and even treatment is subjective. Not every treatment works for every person.
That is a very good point.
Insurance almost never pays for therapy as the bean counters seem to believe that it is a scam. At least, that is how the act when you try and approach them for coverage. On the other hand, get a diagnosis and then get your kid popping pills and they more than happy to pay.

The sad and pathetic truth is that both options are not only valid but in many cases mutually useful in these sort of cases. To bad that in a lot of cases what actually works isn't an available option.
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Old 11.07.2011, 14:15
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Re: Experience dealing with ADHD/ADD in CH?

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First of all, it is psychiatry with a very good marketing and promotion campaigne that has trained us to believe that we need to go to them for a diagnosis, to believe that there is a need for a diagnosis and that the only solution is medication.

Studies are showing exactly what you report that initially there may be some change but on a long term not. Also, studies are showing that there is no real change. Also there are studies showing that kids with these characteristics turn out okay.

This is what I tried to do to provide information that there is an alternative but when I dis I got flamed. It was suggested that I had an ulterior motive.
True. I understand your point of view. But to know where to start before meandering through various therapies on a trial and error basis it probably is best to get a pyschiatrist's diagnosis as this is the basis for registering with the invalid insurance who will take over costs of certain treatments if the child is registered before 9 years of age. No-one is forced to take the pyschiatrists advice if they don't feel it is right for them/their child.

P.S. I'm sure you didn't have an ulterior motive.... I believe in good intentions
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Old 11.07.2011, 15:07
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Re: Experience dealing with ADHD/ADD in CH?

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First of all, to get a diagnosis, you DO need to go to a psychiatrist.

My experiences of ritalin with my son were, as you say, not fantastic. True it made him quieter for a few hours and he got better results at school. But the side effects ( sleep problems, lack of appetite, aggressiveness as the drug was wearing off), plus the fact that the underlying problem was still there made me very wary.

Had I had better support and been more aware of the alternatives available,then I would have chosen an alternative therapy such as heil eurthyme, cognitive therapy or neuro (whatever ) feedback. Have had friends who refused to use ritalin and their children turned out ok in the long term.

Perhaps though, an adult might benefit more from the use of drugs as then they are responsible for their own choice and their development would not be affected..
I see your point very well. I have witnessed cognitive therapy having great success with kids who had attention problems. I also think quite often it is not only late diagnosis, over medication, but also unwillingness of teachers to cope with kid that is slightly different. To keep calm in the class, not having challenging, disruptive kids..I think it is viewed as lack of discipline, unfortunately, not as handicap that is hard to overcome with will power, sort of chemical imbalance.

I prefer to support unmedicated kids even if it means more work for me, than somnolent medicated kids, who you never know how they cope with the meds. Some need medication, sure, so their quality of life improves. But I am coming from conservative schooling, where 1st of all, long term solutions were sought, therapy and equipping kids with strategies to cope, if that didn't work, then step 2 would be short term medication, if needed, or those two combined. Chemicals were the last resort. Never long term, and long term use of Ritalin is scrutinized at the moment. I know this will sound jackass to those who need it and had to use it, I am just sharing experience.

A family member was a school psy, I had a good support to have things explained and methods suggested. It was usually ok in off school time, family was well informed and cooperative, but school was difficult for the kiddo and teacher. There are resources for teachers who need to learn up on patience, special learning aids, special coping methods and strategies, for them and for the kids, so they know how to deal.

I dislike kids being pawned over to shrinks too fast as designated patients (not for the diagnosis, that should be always done by docs, for sure), for long term medication.

We all have it, in some degree, by the way, and as Carlos mentioned, life is changing. Hormons and environmental triggers play a role, too. I was in a watch program since I was exposed to chemicals when preggo and it was assumed kids with learning dissabilities, ADHD or affective disorders are to be expected. I read up on early TV exposure and ADHD, it's uncanny. I am not sure if it was a trend here or not to warn in parenting mags, but kids shouldn't watch TV before they are 3, since the pics change too fast for their brains t ohave a chance to learn how to slowly and properly digest the info.
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Old 11.07.2011, 15:51
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Re: Experience dealing with ADHD/ADD in CH?

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Smoky, while you may wish to post observations about your opinions and anecdotes from n=1 cases, there's not much that can be done about it, but to bleat foul play because another poster has suggested what you say is not supported by the scientific literature is hardly going to reinforce your position.

As an aside, there is plenty of evidence to show that bipolar patients are highly creative - in their mannic phases - but that's little use if the throw themselved off a cliff in their exuberance or under a train in their depression. Furhermore studies have show that their are more productive on average when medicated than when not. Finally there's an interesting correlation with bipolar patients and artists (across different media) suggestion that there's a higher proportion of fragile egos amongst this population...

Anyway back to ADHD, as said previously it is a spectrum of disease. For some simple behaviour modification is enough. For others treatment is needed. For some it will work, for others the side effects will outweigh the benefits.
The right to post opinions on a public forum is the same for every member, is it?

In my opinion, the "bleater" here is the one attempting to force their own view and being rather rude to those not agreeing with their own biased opinions, based on their supposed "scientific" knowledge - which can be a dubious statement, as the internet is well-known for.

This is not a scientific forum. And folk posing as "scientists" should be taken with a good pinch of salt ... for their postings may be construed as gospel truth by those impressed with their words ... As stated under another Thread Title on this forum.
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Old 11.07.2011, 16:20
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Re: Experience dealing with ADHD/ADD in CH?

couldn't resist

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Old 11.07.2011, 17:30
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Re: Experience dealing with ADHD/ADD in CH?

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The right to post opinions on a public forum is the same for every member, is it?

In my opinion, the "bleater" here is the one attempting to force their own view and being rather rude to those not agreeing with their own biased opinions, based on their supposed "scientific" knowledge - which can be a dubious statement, as the internet is well-known for.

This is not a scientific forum. And folk posing as "scientists" should be taken with a good pinch of salt ... for their postings may be construed as gospel truth by those impressed with their words ... As stated under another Thread Title on this forum.
All bleating aside...
There are quite a few knowledgable people as well as a genuine scientists on this forum and even they accept that there is give and take and room for opinion. If you have enough knowledge and look for the signs it is possible to tell what people have an ax to grind. Also, it is apparent that some people actually have medical and science backgrounds, and although I understand there are people who fear science and it's practitioners, it would be nice to actually discuss this issue on that level. There is nothing wrong with opinions but they are, at best a data point, not theories or studies or valid references for therapeutic behaviour.
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Old 11.07.2011, 17:42
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Re: Experience dealing with ADHD/ADD in CH?

Without gettign into any debate I just want to share my experience in Basel: My son who is 5 has a number of symptoms common in ADHD but not all. He is not the agressive type but i clearly see issues. His general behaviour in playground or when around other kids can be very impulsive, he has problems in communications, sometimes in spatial orientation. But he can sit and read books for a good one hour or so, loves to do swimming or being in water and play for hours. he is getting therapautic and neurological support (sessions, i dont know what you call it) and going to therapautic clinic 5 days a week from 8:30 to 12 like normal kindergarten. There are improvements that we see but as he is growing older few things are getting easy, few more difficult. It has been suggested that he needs a bit of medicine to improve focus but me and my husband are really not willing to take that road (i dont know whether it is a good or bad decision). I have been told if his focus improves he may be able to improve his speech, get better in some activites etc. In switzerland my experience has been really great.. They are providing us a lot of support, answering our questions, keepign us up to date on the progress, doing home visits to train us as well on how we should handle him. We can apply for Disability insureance to pay for all the bills (it cannot be applied for 8 years) and the reason is a person is born with the condition. would be interested to know if there are other children in basel or around who have it and how parents deal with it.
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Old 11.07.2011, 17:49
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Re: Experience dealing with ADHD/ADD in CH?

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Without gettign into any debate I just want to share my experience in Basel: My son who is 5 has a number of symptoms common in ADHD but not all.
Sorry about your problems F, as I said before ADHD is a continuum and not a yes/no disease. I am glad he is getting therapy, behavioral therapy by a good therapist is really good, even though it does take time. I have a friend who also has a kid in Basel with ADHD and the kid also gets that therapy...so far so good...
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Old 11.07.2011, 18:18
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Re: Experience dealing with ADHD/ADD in CH?

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Without gettign into any debate I just want to share my experience in Basel: My son who is 5 has a number of symptoms common in ADHD but not all. He is not the agressive type but i clearly see issues. His general behaviour in playground or when around other kids can be very impulsive, he has problems in communications, sometimes in spatial orientation. But he can sit and read books for a good one hour or so, loves to do swimming or being in water and play for hours. he is getting therapautic and neurological support (sessions, i dont know what you call it) and going to therapautic clinic 5 days a week from 8:30 to 12 like normal kindergarten. There are improvements that we see but as he is growing older few things are getting easy, few more difficult. It has been suggested that he needs a bit of medicine to improve focus but me and my husband are really not willing to take that road (i dont know whether it is a good or bad decision). I have been told if his focus improves he may be able to improve his speech, get better in some activites etc. In switzerland my experience has been really great.. They are providing us a lot of support, answering our questions, keepign us up to date on the progress, doing home visits to train us as well on how we should handle him. We can apply for Disability insureance to pay for all the bills (it cannot be applied for 8 years) and the reason is a person is born with the condition. would be interested to know if there are other children in basel or around who have it and how parents deal with it.
Has dyspraxia been ruled out?
It's just that what you are describing sounds very like the problems with my 7 year-old grandson who has now been diagnosed as being dyspraxic and dyslexic.
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Old 12.07.2011, 12:11
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Re: Experience dealing with ADHD/ADD in CH?

dyspraxia has not been ruled out but some of the symptoms are there, he is still in the diagnostic phase. but certain things like coordination, sequential movements etc are not very good. Also he can pronounce all the words, make full sentences but not fully express himself like other kids of his age. He will go through some physical check ups like MRI to determine fully the issue. overall he seems fine but i see a lot of small issues when i compare him with kids of his own age.
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Old 12.07.2011, 12:17
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Re: Experience dealing with ADHD/ADD in CH?

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dyspraxia has not been ruled out but some of the symptoms are there, he is still in the diagnostic phase. but certain things like coordination, sequential movements etc are not very good. Also he can pronounce all the words, make full sentences but not fully express himself like other kids of his age. He will go through some physical check ups like MRI to determine fully the issue. overall he seems fine but i see a lot of small issues when i compare him with kids of his own age.
How many languages does he speak? Careful with multilingual kids assessment of their developement and who you are trying to match him up with. I would only match up developement of verbal skills in our case of a 4,5yr old speaking French, Czech and English, exposed to them in the same way we are. There are also issues as sensoric overload, I have tracked my kiddo being easily overstimulated, verbally and other stimuli, the reaction is easily interpreted as ADHD. The ADHD symptoms might be coping strategies with over stimulation. It's not only perception of visual/noise/smell/ etc but also physical, she can't have things on her palate at certain times, her neck, either, her gaggin reflex is ott compared to other people, etc. Crowded places are very unpleasant, she has her slightly odd ways to cope. Also to her own body, developed some routines to calm herself down when she feels uncomfortable. I actually see is completely normal, we all do it in a way, I think loads of it will ease itself as she grows. Lots of sleep fixes ton of tension. Balance took a while, as well, not tripping over her own feet, cycling and all, but that can be chucked down under extreme growth spurt (you can track growth spurts on percentiles and see). Another thing was this week, I talked to a good friend of mine with a 4yr old, who told me about waves of testosteron, how little boys get angry and pushy, aggressive, with not much skills yet to know how to organize themselves, control it, etc. I think it varies from boy to boy, but also between genders. I wonder if some kids just need to burn more energy, clearly remember my little brother who didn not walk straight but ran zigzag anywhere we went, for years. He needed to be outside, at all times. Not at home much, cooped in.

Just a thought. Hope things will get easier for your little boy.
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Last edited by MusicChick; 12.07.2011 at 12:29. Reason: added some thoughts..
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