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Old 10.08.2011, 11:19
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Re: Steiner Schule

There is so much bias in your points that I do not know where to start and more importantly: why.

Looks like it won't convince you of anything and I wonder why. Did you go to a Steiner school, send your kids there or teach there? Why are you so closed to the arguments?

Anyway:

Yes, the video starts with a black girl and later her mother who both describe how she got bullied at school. As you say, this happens everywhere. What is different here is that both the kid as well as the parent describe that the school did not help them - and I hope we agree that this is not the same everywhere. I know that my school would not tolerate it and tell the girl and parents "the other students are just curious"...

The second women is not "some women", but works for an anti-discrimination organisation. Yes, it is unproven "hearsay" on each individual case if she says that they get regularly complaints from Steiner school... so what? It is highly unlikely that there is some conspiracy of immigrant parents at Steiner schools going on, no?`

The teacher did drop out. He explained which values he could not agree on and I cannot call it a rant or wrong in any way. But attacking him personally and judging his abilities as a teacher based on this interview... never mind.

The quotes and pictures showed a bit more than "Arian" - they showed how Native Americans are a "weak branch" just over monkeys in the book...

Yes, the implication is that all of it is connected. If teachers tell kids that black people are stupid, I for one find it naive to believe that the bullying of the black kid would not be connected.
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  #62  
Old 10.08.2011, 11:34
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Re: Steiner Schule

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Yes, the video starts with a black girl and later her mother who both describe how she got bullied at school. As you say, this happens everywhere. What is different here is that both the kid as well as the parent describe that the school did not help them
The school, however, denies this. And until we see further evidence we don't know who to believe. It would have been easy to interview further pupils and maybe even get one to admit something. But no.

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The second women is not "some women", but works for an anti-discrimination organisation.
Exactly, an organisation funded with taxpayer money to expose racism. So her business incentive isn't exactly to discover there isn't any racism. If in doubt, follow the money.

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The teacher did drop out. He explained which values he could not agree on and I cannot call it a rant or wrong in any way.
And this proves he is stupid. You don't wake up one morning and decide you want to be a Steiner teacher. It's a long process and people who feel attracted to that career path do so because they are highly enthusiastic about Steiner's philosophy. So that wuld assume having read a lot and knowing a lot before even starting the course. So what exactly was this guy thinking?

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The quotes and pictures showed a bit more than "Arian" - they showed how Native Americans are a "weak branch" just over monkeys in the book...
Again a point that hs been done to death.
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  #63  
Old 10.08.2011, 12:18
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Re: Steiner Schule

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....
In short do you claim that the report is one-sided. The other side, from the school of the girl to the steiner association teaching the teachers have all been invited to comment on the claims but decided to reject interviews.

If I was running a school and the national television was asking me to comment on severe claims, I'd try to protect it.

You, on the other hand jump from one prejudice (the dropped out teacher must be bad) to the next (the anti discrimination NGO of the woman must be tax funded and she is only running her "business"). You put a lot of emotional rants and little facts in your posts. Show me something that Steiner schools openly reject this part of the Steiner teachings. If it was discussed to death and all completely pointless, there should be something, no? It would be so easy to end the discussion by simply saying "these books aren't used anymore", "this ideology was dropped by us in the 1950s" and so on. Since they aren't willing to do so, it is hard to believe that everything is ok.

So if we leave out all the people you do not trust - from the student over the parent to the second parent or the ex-teacher: there is written proof and hard facts in the video that are not contested by the Steiner schools in any way. This documents are not ancient but less than a decade old and describe non-Europeans as primitive savages. If I was not sure that this wasn't used there is no way I'd send a kid to this school. End of story.
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Old 10.08.2011, 13:16
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Re: Steiner Schule

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If I was running a school and the national television was asking me to comment on severe claims, I'd try to protect it.
And if I was running a biassed TV show I wouldn't be interested in listening to the other side of the argument. There are plenty of books in which Steiner supporters eloquently debunk the claims and allegations that are laid against them. But that type of reading isn't in the interests of a TV show that obviously has an axe to grind.

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Show me something that Steiner schools openly reject this part of the Steiner teachings. If it was discussed to death and all completely pointless, there should be something, no?
Of all the ex-Steiner pupils I know, none have ever been taught this stuff and none have ever been exhorted to bully their black co-pupils. This is a non issue.

Normally, the onus of the proof is on him who makes a claim. Show me statistics, not individual Bild Zeitungesque sob stories but proper statistics that show the incidence of racial mobbing is actually higher in Steiner schools than it is in other schools. And believe me, if such statistics existed, the people who makes TV shows like this wouldn't miss a opportunity to quote from them.
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  #65  
Old 10.08.2011, 13:20
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Re: Steiner Schule

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Are you saying it must be true because German TV says so?
I have seen the same patterns in German docs and investigations of TV channels. Serious journalism it isn't, they're just looking for things that confirm their viewpoint, cite a few experts and the bad image is cemented in the publics opinion.

And mind you, I wouldn't put my (imaginary) kids in a Steiner school, nor would I join any sect or organisation that is targeted that way, but it still is manipulation of the public of the worst kind. German TV often demonizes people who are at best idealistic and alternative and at worst a bit misguided. As far as I know they're not trying to convert others or change everyone according to their own ideas, so in my opinion they can dance their names all day long, hasn't been outlawed (yet).

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Old 10.08.2011, 13:46
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Re: Steiner Schule

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And mind you, I wouldn't put my (imaginary) kids in a Steiner school,
I probably wouldn't either, and I could also tell you why. But illogical arguments and one-sided journalism isn't contributing to the discussion.
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  #67  
Old 12.08.2011, 21:18
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Re: Steiner Schule

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How can I have missed this one.

Are you seriously asking if it is racist if you believe that black people aren't as developed as yourself?
To understand Rudolf Steiner it's best if someone has done their homework and is familiar with spiritual matters or spiritual science (Geisteswissenschaft) anyway.

One of the pillars in the Anthroposophical movement is the belief in reincarnation and that each individual is responsible for their own evolvement over successive lives. And so yes, I do think some people are more developed than others - you don't have to look very far to realise this in your every day life. Of course many black people have evolved to a high degree also. And no, I don't think Steiner's comments were racist but he was just stating a fact.
What I understand to be racist is when someone obviously hates and rejects persons of another race regardless of their personality, good intentions etc. and is not willing to go 1% of the way to meeting them on a basis of equality, friendship or whatever.
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Old 12.08.2011, 23:01
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Re: Steiner Schule

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To understand Rudolf Steiner it's best if someone has done their homework and is familiar with spiritual matters or spiritual science (Geisteswissenschaft) anyway.
Just because you can make a fancy German word for something doesn't make it a science.
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Old 12.08.2011, 23:24
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Re: Steiner Schule

The word "Geisteswissenschaften" actually exists in German, but it means something completely different than the esoteric nonsense taught by antroposophists.
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Old 13.08.2011, 02:26
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Re: Steiner Schule

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To understand Rudolf Steiner it's best if someone has done their homework and is familiar with spiritual matters or spiritual science (Geisteswissenschaft) anyway.

And so yes, I do think some people are more developed than others - you don't have to look very far to realise this in your every day life. Of course many black people have evolved to a high degree also. And no, I don't think Steiner's comments were racist but he was just stating a fact.
Do you believe that some races, I don't mean individuals, but races as a whole, are intellectually superior to others?
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Old 13.08.2011, 03:27
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Re: Steiner Schule

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One of the pillars in the Anthroposophical movement is the belief in reincarnation and that each individual is responsible for their own evolvement over successive lives.
Geisteswissenschaft is German for "the humanities" - nothing spiritual.

But on the reincarnation part and your statement: If I am responsible for my reincarnations - does this mean that for example a person with a birth defect did something bad in a prior life and gets punished for it?
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Old 13.08.2011, 08:54
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Re: Steiner Schule

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Geisteswissenschaft is German for "the humanities" - nothing spiritual.

But on the reincarnation part and your statement: If I am responsible for my reincarnations - does this mean that for example a person with a birth defect did something bad in a prior life and gets punished for it?
Not necessarily. Could be your parents have something to learn from you or are here to provide learning opportunities for other people.
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  #73  
Old 13.08.2011, 09:04
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Re: Steiner Schule

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Do you believe that some races, I don't mean individuals, but races as a whole, are intellectually superior to others?
What I believe or don't believe is irrelevant to this topic. What Rudolf Steiner tried to convey is that some races tend to use the intellect more and others rely on their instincts and impulses
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Old 13.08.2011, 09:14
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Re: Steiner Schule

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The word "Geisteswissenschaften" actually exists in German, but it means something completely different than the esoteric nonsense taught by antroposophists.
To talk the talk you have to walk the walk.
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Old 13.08.2011, 09:22
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Re: Steiner Schule

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What I believe or don't believe is irrelevant to this topic. What Rudolf Steiner tried to convey is that some races tend to use the intellect more and others rely on their instincts and impulses
I wonder if Steiner confounded "race" with environment. A group of people living in one environment will require different skills than than those living in another. If a certain "race" predominates, then it's easy to assume that it's the race driving use of certain attributes when in fact, it might be the environment. When you transplant people, more than a single generation will be required to adapt, if given the opportunity.

Last edited by edot; 13.08.2011 at 11:22.
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  #76  
Old 13.08.2011, 17:39
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Re: Steiner Schule

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What I believe or don't believe is irrelevant to this topic. What Rudolf Steiner tried to convey is that some races tend to use the intellect more and others rely on their instincts and impulses
I don't think that what you think is irrelevant to this forum. This is an on-line discussion, so what you write will be guided by your beliefs.
Instincts and impulses are more primitive reactions, not that they aren't important they are, but if you say that some races rely on these, you are in effect saying that they are more primitive.

If you say that some races are lower on the intellect scale this is in my view racist. It is not that others are lower on the intellect scale it is just that intellect comes in perhaps unrecognized different forms. For instance, some tribes in Africa walk long distances, they are very accurate at judging distance, simply by looking at the terrain ( no maps or cell phones) they think that foreigners who can't do this are particularly stupid. Thus intelligence or intellect is the ability to utilize your environment.

I was really surprised to learn this about Steiner, I have to be honest I never knew so thanks Treverus for raising it. However I agree with edot, and some stuff that I read on the web, that perhaps that Steiner means that civilizations advance and plateau at different rates. All civilizations plateau and develop at different rates. The west has developed because of advances in other civilizations. Where did gunpowder come from?

It certainly has made me a little more wary, of the Steiner philosophy, however I have never seen or heard of this racist philosophy being espoused in a Waldorf/ Steiner school. I actually quite like some of their views on education but feel that I can educate students in these views while still keeping the child in mainstream education.

I would never work with a teacher who believed that some races use intellect more than other races, without reporting this to the governing authorities- I've done it before. Such a view is racist and very damaging to children. Teachers expectations are one of the most divisive and decisive factors in a child's ability to progress. If you believe that certain races are innately limited in intellectual terms then you re effectively relegating them to the 'non- academically inclined'; simply because your blinkered philosophy blinded you to recognizing culturally different ways of expressing intelligence. As a teacher you must be alert to recognizing intellect in different forms and help children to utilize these intelligences in advancing within the host society.

Sorry to drag on but you can actually use intellectual tradiitions form different societies to enhance group learning. For instance the Caribbean people have a strong oral tradition, this was denigrated as many of those who used this were thought to use it in the absence of higher order reading and writing skills. However oral tradition skills involves heavy use of memorization and language rehearsal. Nowadays we see how important it is to give presentations. The use of oral tradition can provide a strong basis for presentation skills. It is through the cultural exchange of intelligence that society advances.

Last edited by hoppy; 13.08.2011 at 17:51.
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  #77  
Old 13.08.2011, 17:48
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Re: Steiner Schule

On a related subject, can anyone give me more information about a certain "Hogwart's School of Wizarding and Witchcraft"? I just received a letter of enrollment for my child by owl post.
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  #78  
Old 13.08.2011, 18:42
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Re: Steiner Schule

I know nothing about Steiner’s philosophy, but I would like to contribute to the thread anyway.
I have a lot of ‘spiritual’ interests (mythology, Buddhism, religions in general, symbols and archetypes – I consider myself a Jungian) and my world view is not Cartesian/materialistic. I believe there are more things in heaven and earth that are dreamt of by scientists. This is my experience of reality. This is how I perceive the world.
I tend to get offended when I see the phrases such as “esoteric nonsense”. Any religious beliefs could be ridiculed as nonsensical if we approach them from a purely intellectual stance. ‘Immaculate’ conception? Really? [I realize it is a primitive way of reasoning and I apologize for the example; I appreciate its symbolic significance.]
Even physicists are starting to acknowledge the mysterious nature of the universe.
“Science does not need mysticism and mysticism does not need science; but man needs both.” - wrote Fritjof Capra in The Turning Point (he is a physicist).
Why are Catholics, Muslims or Protestants treated with respect on this forum and why do I feel that anyone interested in “spiritual development” (for the lack of a better world) is implicitly judged on the EF? Honestly, this makes me sad at times because I really love this forum and find enormous pleasure in reading it every day.
Did I get the wrong end of the stick? Why do I feel unfairly judged?
P.S. One more thing. I realize that Mike Shiva and his colleagues are not perfect ambassadors of metaphysics (to put it mildly…). I am as embarrassed when I turn on this particular channel as anyone of you.
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Old 13.08.2011, 21:25
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Re: Steiner Schule

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What I believe or don't believe is irrelevant to this topic. What Rudolf Steiner tried to convey is that some races tend to use the intellect more and others rely on their instincts and impulses
Do you have the original German word for that? Just curious. Did he really used Rasse???
I know that depending on the date of the writing, the word race/Rasse do not have the same connotations or are more or less judgemental and part of the accepted colloquial vocabulary, but still...
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Old 13.08.2011, 21:52
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What I believe or don't believe is irrelevant to this topic. What Rudolf Steiner tried to convey is that some races tend to use the intellect more and others rely on their instincts and impulses
Yeah but to be fair he also came up with this gem...

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"Blond hair actually gives [brings about] cleverness; if you send [only a] little [blood] into the eyes, it remains in the brain with its fluid nourishment and gives the brain cleverness. The brown-haired and brown-eyed, and the black-haired and black-eyed, they force that which the blonds push into the brain, into the eyes and hair. Therefore they [the brown-haired, etc.] become materialists, acting only on the basis of what they see, and this must be balanced through a spiritual science. This means that you must have a spiritual science to the same extent that humanity loses its cleverness with the blondness.
What a complete cock.
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