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Old 13.08.2011, 21:59
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Re: Steiner Schule

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Old 14.08.2011, 00:22
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Re: Steiner Schule

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Old 14.08.2011, 09:20
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Re: Steiner Schule

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Yeah but to be fair he also came up with this gem...



What a complete cock.
This text is taken from Roger Rawlings "The Evil Within", a letter written by an ex Waldorf school pupil who obviously had an axe to grind with anthroposophy.

Whatever school one goes to or whatever system one is placed into there will always be dissatisfied customers. It's a basic law of life. Yin and Yang.
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Old 14.08.2011, 09:31
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Re: Steiner Schule

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Do you have the original German word for that? Just curious. Did he really used Rasse???
I know that depending on the date of the writing, the word race/Rasse do not have the same connotations or are more or less judgemental and part of the accepted colloquial vocabulary, but still...
Well, I did read the 5 basic Steiner books (out of more than 300 publications)about 25 years ago and hard going it was too. Although the essence of his works has stayed with me I can't remember details. There was no mention of race however in the 5 basic introductory books.

Bearing in mind that 100 years ago most Europeans had never even seen an African there was obviously a greater divide between the races. Rudolf Steiner was a product of his age and just as nowadays no-one would dare infer there is a difference between peoples, at that time it was a generally accepted fact.
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Old 14.08.2011, 10:36
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Re: Steiner Schule

Hi, i would recommend you visit the mumsnet website and search Steiner to read peoples experiences. There are still some posts on there even though members of the Steiner cult put pressure on the moderators to remove negative opinions.

I seem to remember reading that in Belgium the schools were under investigation and the organistion falls under Cult status.

Here's a starter for ten :

http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/educatio...on?pagingOff=1
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Old 14.08.2011, 13:55
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Re: Steiner Schule

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This text is taken from Roger Rawlings "The Evil Within", a letter written by an ex Waldorf school pupil who obviously had an axe to grind with anthroposophy.

Whatever school one goes to or whatever system one is placed into there will always be dissatisfied customers. It's a basic law of life. Yin and Yang.
It was actually a transcript of parts of an interview with Steiner found on the Waldorf website.; a piece, oddly enough, disputing his critics...

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Bearing in mind that 100 years ago most Europeans had never even seen an African there was obviously a greater divide between the races. Rudolf Steiner was a product of his age and just as nowadays no-one would dare infer there is a difference between peoples, at that time it was a generally accepted fact.
People also believed that the earth was flat and was only 5000 years old. It doesn't mean there is a place for that in today's world either.
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Old 14.08.2011, 15:11
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Re: Steiner Schule

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It was actually a transcript of parts of an interview with Steiner found on the Waldorf website.; a piece, oddly enough, disputing his critics...



People also believed that the earth was flat and was only 5000 years old. It doesn't mean there is a place for that in today's world either.
If you understand the works correctly it deals with how the human body functions. Not just the mechanics.i.e., what the digestive system does,how the blood flows through the vessels etc. but the engineering behind the mechanics Everybody knows that the heart keeps the blood flowing but what makes the heart beat and what are the forces behind metabolism etc.?Steiner's view is (simplified) that cosmic forces or energies enter the body and make it what it is or isn't and keep things moving.He also states that once the first teeth of a child have been replaced by the second teeth the forces for the creation of the teeth then go to develop the academic ability.

If you don't agree or like this idea fine: it can't be proved anyway. But do YOU have a better answer or do YOU know more than Steiner did? If so I'd love to hear YOUR version as to what makes teeth grow or how metabolism occurs.
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Old 14.08.2011, 15:24
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Re: Steiner Schule

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If you understand the works correctly it deals with how the human body functions. Not just the mechanics.i.e., what the digestive system does,how the blood flows through the vessels etc. but the engineering behind the mechanics Everybody knows that the heart keeps the blood flowing but what makes the heart beat and what are the forces behind metabolism etc.?Steiner's view is (simplified) that cosmic forces or energies enter the body and make it what it is or isn't and keep things moving.He also states that once the first teeth of a child have been replaced by the second teeth the forces for the creation of the teeth then go to develop the academic ability.
But presumably people don't believe this today, any more than they believe that the earth is flat..?

Even the most staunch Steiner supporters must titter nostalgically when they read that, surely.
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Old 15.08.2011, 12:19
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Re: Steiner Schule

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But presumably people don't believe this today, any more than they believe that the earth is flat..?

Even the most staunch Steiner supporters must titter nostalgically when they read that, surely.
Actually a lot do believe that as it is the basis of anthroposophical medicine
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Old 15.08.2011, 12:52
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Re: Steiner Schule

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If you don't agree or like this idea fine: it can't be proved anyway. But do YOU have a better answer or do YOU know more than Steiner did? If so I'd love to hear YOUR version as to what makes teeth grow or how metabolism occurs.
Yes, I do actually know more than Steiner. Because I live a century after him - the century which produced the by far biggest leap in knowledge ever. We do understand a great bit more about Biology or Medicine than we did back then. So in short: I have fun discussing everything, from re-born people to cosmic forces coming from my teeth. I am tolerant and that means that I allow space in society for everything I would consider hippie crap or religion in general.

But, and that' a big but: children. I think that children should be educated
- in a tolerant and open way
- in a scientific way
- in no way that hurts them

I find the Steiner ideology increasingly difficult to tolerante - enaj has actually proven all points made by the oh-so-terrible video I linked:
- there are pretty racist concepts in the ideology. Yes, that is due to the time Steiner lived in, but nevertheless unacceptable today. I would never want any kid to learn that different races are on different development levels. I don't care if you consider it racist or not, I do as it fulfills all scientific criteria for the definition of racism.
- I find the re-born part fairly risky - as soon as you teach kids that somebody was born "inferior", say disabled, different skin color, different sexual orientation or anything else "different" as a result of the way they lived their previous life... you open up a fairly difficult area: You basically define what is the "right" way to be and what actions are the right way to behave. This is in itself intolerant, but it also automatically gives an excuse to discriminate against "other" people: After all must they have done something bad in their previous life to end up the way they are. There is no way I'd want any child to learn this twisted stuff.
- Ignoring the most basic rules of science in the ideology will give kids indeed a hard time in life. I described in some previous post that my friends from Walldorf schools had a hard time preparing for the glider pilot exam. I can fully see why now: There is no cosmic force involved and yes, they had to physically proof things, not only believe in them.

in short: This ideology has everything I would consider a cult. Nothing wrong to discuss it and you are free to follow it. But I would not recommend it to be the only source of education for any child. And as I am not a liberitarian but believe that a society has not only rights but also duties: If only half of this is correct, I think the government has the duty to protect children from this ideology.
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Old 15.08.2011, 16:30
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Re: Steiner Schule

All private schools can become cults given the right conditions. I was once considering the Lyceum at Zuoz until I heard the local stories about Russian mafia kids. All it takes is a few determined teachers with a personal agenda. This can happen in the state system as well, I once ran inot a handarbeit teacher who seemed to be running the school, but there are more safeguards, which I made use of Parents can be very gullible about the claims of certain private schools. The bottom line is that if you are buying education so look at the school performance record and how they compare to others.

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Saturday morning began in earnest with all the team reporting to the pitches at 9 a.m. The tournament is run by the local school Lyceum Alpinum, an international boarding school for children of extremely rich parents. Over the weekend I heard stories of Russian mafia parents whisking their kids to school in their 4x4s being followed by Interpol detectives on their trail. The school itself overlooks the village and seems very well endowed, if you get my gist.
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Old 16.08.2011, 08:42
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Re: Steiner Schule

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Yes, I do actually know more than Steiner. Because I live a century after him - the century which produced the by far biggest leap in knowledge ever. We do understand a great bit more about Biology or Medicine than we did back then. So in short: I have fun discussing everything, from re-born people to cosmic forces coming from my teeth. I am tolerant and that means that I allow space in society for everything I would consider hippie crap or religion in general.

But, and that' a big but: children. I think that children should be educated
- in a tolerant and open way
- in a scientific way
- in no way that hurts them

I find the Steiner ideology increasingly difficult to tolerante - enaj has actually proven all points made by the oh-so-terrible video I linked:
- there are pretty racist concepts in the ideology. Yes, that is due to the time Steiner lived in, but nevertheless unacceptable today. I would never want any kid to learn that different races are on different development levels. I don't care if you consider it racist or not, I do as it fulfills all scientific criteria for the definition of racism.
- I find the re-born part fairly risky - as soon as you teach kids that somebody was born "inferior", say disabled, different skin color, different sexual orientation or anything else "different" as a result of the way they lived their previous life... you open up a fairly difficult area: You basically define what is the "right" way to be and what actions are the right way to behave. This is in itself intolerant, but it also automatically gives an excuse to discriminate against "other" people: After all must they have done something bad in their previous life to end up the way they are. There is no way I'd want any child to learn this twisted stuff.
- Ignoring the most basic rules of science in the ideology will give kids indeed a hard time in life. I described in some previous post that my friends from Walldorf schools had a hard time preparing for the glider pilot exam. I can fully see why now: There is no cosmic force involved and yes, they had to physically proof things, not only believe in them.

in short: This ideology has everything I would consider a cult. Nothing wrong to discuss it and you are free to follow it. But I would not recommend it to be the only source of education for any child. And as I am not a liberitarian but believe that a society has not only rights but also duties: If only half of this is correct, I think the government has the duty to protect children from this ideology.
Just because we live 100 years after Steiner doesn't mean we actually know more. Sure there have been major leaps and jumps in science and medicine but Steiner's view of things is more what's happening behind the scenes and is more concerned with the "inner world" of the child and indeed human being.

These ideas are in no way taught in the school or as dogma. The ideas are introduced in the 8th or 9th school year when, theoretically, the children should be able to accept or reject the ideas theselves.
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Old 16.08.2011, 09:19
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Re: Steiner Schule

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I wonder if Steiner confounded "race" with environment. A group of people living in one environment will require different skills than than those living in another. If a certain "race" predominates, then it's easy to assume that it's the race driving use of certain attributes when in fact, it might be the environment. When you transplant people, more than a single generation will be required to adapt, if given the opportunity.
True, and this is in fact what Steiner said and what people would read if only they quoted him in context because in Steiner there is nothing genetic in the word race. In fact there is one passage where he discusses children born to European parents in China and raised by Chinese domestics and learning Chinese culture before they learn European culture and he describes these children as being of "Chinese race". So neither skin colour nor genetics but the culture into which you are born is Steiner's criterium for race.

By the same criterium, I am sure that Steiner would have no problem calling a dark-skinned person born in Europe as being of European race.
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Old 16.08.2011, 10:21
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Re: Steiner Schule

I think we forget how normal it was to use the word race in all kinds of definitions 100 years ago. When I listen to american news too, I have to remind myself of the relativity of definitions of words through time and space, because they use the adjective "racial" in many ways which would not be translated as "racial" or "Rassen-" in French and German.

For the pedagogical part of the discussion, I am not sure that all Steiner schools take all Steiner's writings literally. I don't like them but what I have heard and experienced is isoteric-free and just a pedagogical concept. In other words, I suspect (positive word here) many schools to strip down Steiner's ideas to a pure pedagogical-practical structure. When some teachers somewhere go back to the esoteric Steiner, it must indeed be a shock for everybody.
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Old 16.08.2011, 10:30
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Re: Steiner Schule

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I think we forget how normal it was to use the word race in all kinds of definitions 100 years ago. When I listen to american news too, I have to remind myself of the relativity of definitions of words through time and space, because they use the adjective "racial" in many ways which would not be translated as "racial" or "Rassen-" in French and German.
This shows once again that language and culture are interelated. Another example, when Europeans speak about Capitalism, they mean something bad, when Americans speak of it they mean something good. But what Americans call Capitalism, Europeans are more likely to call Liberalism. Yet Liberalism in America is a bad word among those who like Capitalism.
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Old 16.08.2011, 10:46
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Re: Steiner Schule

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Just because we live 100 years after Steiner doesn't mean we actually know more. Sure there have been major leaps and jumps in science and medicine but Steiner's view of things is more what's happening behind the scenes and is more concerned with the "inner world" of the child and indeed human being.

These ideas are in no way taught in the school or as dogma. The ideas (of cosmic forces behind the second set of teeth ??) are introduced in the 8th or 9th school year when, theoretically, the children should be able to accept or reject the ideas theselves.
Thanks for that, youve just saved me the 1000 bucks a month it would cost me to send my daughter to the local Steiner school....
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Old 16.08.2011, 11:10
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Re: Steiner Schule

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Just because we live 100 years after Steiner doesn't mean we actually know more.
Yes it does. That's the most basic principle in science: Science produces new knowledge by testing ideas with logic and measurements. And yes, we created a lot of new knowledge in science and especially medicine - just look how much higher the life expectancy is today vs. 100 years ago.

8th class means 14 years old, right? Are you saying that kids are by then developed enough to critically challenge a thesis like "there is a cosmic force coming from your teeth"?

I'd say if they were educated in a scientific environment and used to work with a thesis they should challenge: Possibly yes. If they were brought up in an environment where they had to draw with the thick crayons and dance their names... the answer is probably "no".

I'll be honest: I learned a lot from this thread: I thought initially Steiner schools are simply a bit "artsy" - the kids are bad in maths as they simply spend more time in theater classes. Not my personal style but ok with me. But if the kids are bad in science as their teachers apparently don't really believe in science as a concept... that's another story.
I heard some vague racism complaints before but I thought that's due to the in my experience on average low scoring students going there. The more I learn here - not from some biased critics, but actually from you defending Steiner - the more I am convinced that it is less harmless and definitely something I'd not send a kid to.
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Old 16.08.2011, 11:25
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Re: Steiner Schule

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8th class means 14 years old, right? Are you saying that kids are by then developed enough to critically challenge a thesis like "there is a cosmic force coming from your teeth"?

I'd say if they were educated in a scientific environment and used to work with a thesis they should challenge: Possibly yes. If they were brought up in an environment where they had to draw with the thick crayons and dance their names... the answer is probably "no".
I've never actually heard of pupils being taught that any cosmic forces came out of their teeth, and I know many people who been through Steiner schools so I really don't know where that snippet comes from. Yes, it is something Steiner supposedly once said, along with volumes and volumes of other stuff that adds up to many thousands of pages, much of it not actually written by his hand but taken from notes that people took at lectures he held. Most of this stuff was never actually approved or even read by Steiner himself, and in some cases was not printed (or the documents not even discovered) until after his death. These were not professional stenographers but just normal people taking notes as he was talking and so may be incomplete, illegible, or only concentrate on the aspects that interested the people writing them the most. Some of these documents may even be forgeries. The books in that category have a clear disclaimer at the beginning which of course doesn't deter those who either want to believe it all, or for that matter those who have an axe to grind and are looking for ammunition.

One thing that Steiner did say and did say several times was that all the esoteric stuff and theories and things that he taught was to be kept out of the schools. He said that children would not be able to understand that or judge it clearly. If any teacher isn't doing that, you can report them straight to the Waldorf Schulverband.

I believe that Steiner said some pretty insightful things, but also talked a lot of rubbish. Cosmic forces in teeth and reincarnation are in the rubbish category as far as I am concerned. But other things are pretty interesting actually. It's best to approach him with an open mind and judge each statement on its own merit rather than saying that because some things don't make sense, the rest must be trash as well. Also, some stuff is metaphoric, and not supposed to be literal truth, which is why it is so dangerous to quote it out of context. Sometimes Steiner also joked and there are documented examples of this. Maybe there are more jokes that people haven't spotted, maybe because the record is incomplete.

Some Steiner supporters are doing themselves a huge disfavour by taking a lot of Steiner's teachings way too literally and not really attempting to see what he was really trying to tell them. Many start their statements with "Der Doktor sagt" taking all his words as truth without testing them critically, so if you want to blame him for not teaching his followers to be as critical as they should have been, I will agree with you there. But they are not all like that.

And as for crayons and poor teaching, the PISA studies showed a different picture. It's best to judge a tree by its fruits and the Steiner education is solid and decent even if it is a bit artsy.

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Old 17.08.2011, 10:41
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Re: Steiner Schule

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Also, some stuff is metaphoric, and not supposed to be literal truth, which is why it is so dangerous to quote it out of context. Sometimes Steiner also joked and there are documented examples of this. Maybe there are more jokes that people haven't spotted, maybe because the record is incomplete.

Some Steiner supporters are doing themselves a huge disfavour by taking a lot of Steiner's teachings way too literally and not really attempting to see what he was really trying to tell them.
I must say that this description sounds very much like Jesus and Mohammed to me. Steiner was probably a reincarnation of the two. Another reason not to send a kid there.
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Old 17.08.2011, 11:26
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I must say that this description sounds very much like Jesus and Mohammed to me. Steiner was probably a reincarnation of the two. Another reason not to send a kid there.
A lot of stuff that Plato says is also heavilly metaphoric. So I guess you consider him like a religious guru too?
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