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Old 11.04.2011, 14:52
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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You take a dump. Flush it down and it travels to the local ARA along with a load of other dumps, washing up water, rainwater. Dilution 1. There it gets filtered and generally cleaned and flushed out into a local stream. Dilution 2. The stream joins a river. Dilution2. The river flows into Zürichsee. Dilution 3. Zürichsee water is again filtered and pumped to your tap. A nice natural succession of dilutions. According to homeopathic theory every but of that water carries a memory of your dump. Not sure what disease that one will treat, though.
This has already been alluded to in post 171. Do keep up.

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Is now a good time to post this...?

  #222  
Old 11.04.2011, 14:54
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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There are pages and pages of defensive postings with all sorts of mad links to back it up but can anyone say (giving examples) that the diluted stuff has actually cured them of a bona fide complaint?

"I took [eye of bat / tooth of tiger] from [Henry's Homeopathy Emporium / U-dilute.com] for [cystitis / hemorrhoids / ear infection] and I was completely better within x time."

No anecdotal stuff about your great Auntie, either. Have you, yourself been cured.

I's like to play the devil's advocate on this one.

Vaccines?

If a virus gets into your system it can make you very ill. However take that virus, do nasty things to it, cut it into little pieces and dilute it and then inject it into somebody and hey presto, they are actually immune to that virus. Is this not an example of a weakened form providing protection against the stronger form?
  #223  
Old 11.04.2011, 14:56
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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Well, they're very good arguments, based on the number of molecules and the room they take up, thoroughly tested. Although probably you know better.

If the remedies have traces of the substance, then the homepaths have lied about how many times they diluted it. Simple.
Errr....No.

In a contained system, some of the substance must exist in some of the remedies. It cannot be destroyed. It therefore stands to reason that in a batch of remedies, some will have none, some will have some of the element it is named after. Who is misrepresenting this fact ?

Also, very few Homeopaths dilute. It's cumbersome, error prone and far cheaper to use the labs that are available (Nelsons/Helios).
  #224  
Old 11.04.2011, 14:56
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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I's like to play the devil's advocate on this one.

Vaccines?

If a virus gets into your system it can make you very ill. However take that virus, do nasty things to it, cut it into little pieces and dilute it and then inject it into somebody and hey presto, they are actually immune to that virus. Is this not an example of a weakened form providing protection against the stronger form?
No, it's an example of an inactivated form providing protection against an active form. In actual fact, the amount of antigen you receive in your average vaccine dose is x times the dose you receive from a genuine viral/bacterial infection.
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  #225  
Old 11.04.2011, 14:57
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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I's like to play the devil's advocate on this one.

Vaccines?

If a virus gets into your system it can make you very ill. However take that virus, do nasty things to it, cut it into little pieces and dilute it and then inject it into somebody and hey presto, they are actually immune to that virus. Is this not an example of a weakened form providing protection against the stronger form?
An argument Homeopaths like to latch onto, in terms of the presence of a substance triggering an immune response against that substance. The memory on how to deal with it remains.

"Like cures like"
  #226  
Old 11.04.2011, 15:00
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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Errr....No.

In a contained system, some of the substance must exist in some of the remedies. It cannot be destroyed. It therefore stands to reason that in a batch of remedies, some will have none, some will have some of the element it is named after. Who is misrepresenting this fact ?
You, still. To make the dilutions claimed in a closed system would take more water than there is in the universe.

But I don't think they are made in a closed system.
  #227  
Old 11.04.2011, 15:06
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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You, still. To make the dilutions claimed in a closed system would take more water than there is in the universe.

But I don't think they are made in a closed system.
Where do you get this from ? It's nonsense.

For a 30c dilution. Take 30 litres of water. Place 10ml of the substance in the first litre. Shake, /serve well chilled , remove 10ml from the first liter and place this 10ml in the second litre. Repeat 30 (or is it 29) times. (OK, to keep volumes accurate, use 990ml)
  #228  
Old 11.04.2011, 15:06
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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"Like cures like"
You beat me to it, again!



That's why Scotch and water is so good for curing headaches.
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  #229  
Old 11.04.2011, 15:07
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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I am sure you can Google that for yourself. You don't expect me to know that do you ?

You could phone the NHS Homeopathic hospitals in the UK, or speak to one of the 700 NHS registered Doctors prescribing Homeopathic remedies. Failing that, you could speak to the Queen's physician.
You expected me to know the answers to your question - answers which happen to be the same.

I'll let you do the googling, shall I?
  #230  
Old 11.04.2011, 15:08
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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I'll let you do the googling, shall I?
It's not me that asked the question
  #231  
Old 11.04.2011, 15:10
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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Where do you get this from ? It's nonsense.

For a 30c dilution. Take 30 litres of water. Place 10ml of the substance in the first litre. Shake, /serve well chilled , remove 10ml from the first liter and place this 10ml in the second litre. Repeat 30 (or is it 29) times. (OK, to keep volumes accurate, use 990ml)
I think what cyrus is trying to say is that, for example, to encounter a single molecule of the "active substance" in a 200C preparation, you'd have to ingest the equivalent of 320 x the known universe's worth of water molecules.
  #232  
Old 11.04.2011, 15:11
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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Where do you get this from ? It's nonsense.

For a 30c dilution. Take 30 litres of water. Place 10ml of the substance in the first litre. Shake, /serve well chilled , remove 10ml from the first liter and place this 10ml in the second litre. Repeat 30 (or is it 29) times. (OK, to keep volumes accurate, use 990ml)

To anticipate the next question from the disbelievers - the 30 x 990ml generated over the course of this is at the wrong dilution, so it has no medicinal value.

But, remember, homepathy is not about dilution, it's about something else


And if you do it with alcohol (gin, for example) rather than water, then the waste effluent can be used to mitigate the effects of other liquids (e.g. tonic water).
  #233  
Old 11.04.2011, 15:11
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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Where do you get this from ? It's nonsense.

For a 30c dilution. Take 30 litres of water. Place 10ml of the substance in the first litre. Shake, /serve well chilled , remove 10ml from the first liter and place this 1ml in the second litre. Repeat 30 (or is it 29) times. (OK, to keep volumes accurate, use 990ml)
By which time there will be nothing left. I'll leave you to work out the maths. But think of it this way, instead of just discarding the water from each dilution, use it to make another. So from you're first bottle of 30l, you have the opportunity for 300 new dilutions, repeat 30 times

Your solutions that contain even 1 molecule of the original substance are outnumbered by.......
  #234  
Old 11.04.2011, 15:12
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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What does your Doctor do ? Why is a Trained/regulated professional Homeopath any different at diagnosing ?
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It's not me that asked the question
Yes it was
  #235  
Old 11.04.2011, 15:15
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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I's like to play the devil's advocate on this one.

Vaccines?

If a virus gets into your system it can make you very ill. However take that virus, do nasty things to it, cut it into little pieces and dilute it and then inject it into somebody and hey presto, they are actually immune to that virus. Is this not an example of a weakened form providing protection against the stronger form?
No. You absolutely do not dilute the virus.

In simple terms:

You expose the immune system to the antigens that make your body recognise something as alien. Antigens are the bits that are specific to a virus or other alien particle in your body (whether a bacterial, viral or chemical entity).

The body then attacks cells which have these antigens (expressed on their surface). Autoimmune diseases are examples where the body's immune system incorrectly attacks antigens from its own cells.

Immune reactions are always stronger the second time, due to immune memory. So vaccines tap into this by preparing your body with a mix of antigens from a particular viral strain. You give a vaccine in an inactive form so that you don't, in principle, have to suffer from the disease (although a lot of the symptoms are a natural reaction to infection, so when you take a vaccine you will sometimes have a fever, soreness etc. etc.).




Very simple terms, but it shows that it is not a dilution effect.
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  #236  
Old 11.04.2011, 15:16
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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Yes it was
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I'd be curious to know who regulates a homeopath. Could you give us a link to the official register of regulated homeopaths for any such regulated jurisdictions?

Also could you give us a breakdown of the study and training required to become a homeopath?
Oh no it wasn't....We are probably confusing each other here.
  #237  
Old 11.04.2011, 15:17
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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By which time there will be nothing left. I'll leave you to work out the maths. But think of it this way, instead of just discarding the water from each dilution, use it to make another. So from you're first bottle of 30l, you have the opportunity for 300 new dilutions, repeat 30 times

Your solutions that contain even 1 molecule of the original substance are outnumbered by.......
Now progress to the Molecular memory theory.
  #238  
Old 11.04.2011, 15:18
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

I quite like upthehatters posts but I just don't understand if his defense homeopathetic remedies is trolling or he truly believes it.

Anyway I've agreed to disagree with him before and I shall again.

Ciao
  #239  
Old 11.04.2011, 15:20
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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Now progress to the Molecular memory theory.
...which, according to a 2005 paper, last all of 50 millionths of a nanosecond (50 fs) for water molecules.
  #240  
Old 11.04.2011, 15:20
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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I quite like upthehatters posts but I just don't understand if his defense homeopathetic remedies is trolling or he truly believes it.

Anyway I've agreed to disagree with him before and I shall again.

Ciao
Thanks, again, not defending the efficacy, just the underlying basis of the science/pseudo-science that Homeopaths believe.
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