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Old 14.04.2011, 09:05
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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OK Carlos R. Was just provoking anyway. I know scientists want to know HOW things work but why can't you just reverse the procedure i.e, first find out IF it works then worry about the HOW afterwards instead of thinking we don't know how it works so we won't even bother to try to find out IF it works? If you see what I mean!
Like penicillin, you mean? That was a "Ooh, that's interesting - it's killed the bacteria it was in contact with" followed by "Let's find out why..."
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Old 14.04.2011, 09:23
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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Oh, and there is no aura.
It's a name thing. Most living objects have an electric field around their body. This is easily discerned and captured with basic equipment. Aurelian photography does indeed capture this field and translates it into colour on a photographic slide. Believers have jumped on this as proof of something that has been claimed for centuries before electricity was discovered(documented ?)...namely the Aura. These fields do interact with other fields, and it is quite possible certain people are somehow sensitive to other fields (aura readings...). It is quite reasonable to suppose that other electrical apparatus can affect this field (power stations/pylons etc) and have an (undocumented/unproved/supposed) affect on health. This again gives ammunition to the aura believers.

I think, they are one and the same. Misunderstood and revered by the relatively ignorant, and a source of science for the logical mind yet to be fully explained. The 'management' and 'protection' of this field may well give vital clues to health and well-being in a way that accupuncture (again controversial, but gaining acceptance) has recently. One thing is for sure, the macroscopic approach to Science and health (lets look at and create molecules to cure people) really needs to take a step back and involve an holistic (Let's look at the person and his lifestyle and involve treating the underlying issues ) approach to health management. Holistic perhaps a synonym in this context for 'open-minded'. There are many health management practices that show undisputable health benefits, yet have yet to be fully explained by Science (Massage Therapy, Accupuncture, Laughing etc etc).

This has got **** all to do with Homeopathy (yet).
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  #323  
Old 14.04.2011, 09:31
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

On that point, I'm pretty skeptical of these types of therapies, but recently my physio suggested dry needling to help with a bad neck injury.

Based on my anecdotal evidence on a sample of n=1, it works.
  #324  
Old 14.04.2011, 09:32
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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Anyway, with kirlian aural diagnosis we could photograph the aura before and after treatment with homeopathy. (Yes I know 1000 objections against kirlian aural diagnosis), but I think it's best to forget double blind trials and dilutions etc. as these have brought no evidence.
So you're proposal to test to see homeopathy is effective is to throw away the clinical data (they don't show the correct results) and compare photos of auras? And if the auras are somehow different, then it's effective?? What exactly are you testing? How do you photograph an aura? I bet that requires a special camera no one can look at in case they find out it's just cheap camera trick.

You no longer seem to care about whether or not someone gets better or not, you've actually sidestepped that now, but now you want to show a mythical remedy is effective on a mythical aura?? You might as well say that if you pour it on the ground, then invisble unicorns will grow. It's homeopathic marketing genius.
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  #325  
Old 14.04.2011, 09:34
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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I think, they are one and the same. Misunderstood and revered by the relatively ignorant, and a source of science for the logical mind yet to be fully explained. The 'management' and 'protection' of this field may well give vital clues to health and well-being in a way that accupuncture (again controversial, but gaining acceptance) has recently. One thing is for sure, the macroscopic approach to Science and health (lets look at and create molecules to cure people) really needs to take a step back and involve an holistic (Let's look at the person and his lifestyle and involve treating the underlying issues ) approach to health management. Holistic perhaps a synonym in this context for 'open-minded'. There are many health management practices that show undisputable health benefits, yet have yet to be fully explained by Science (Massage Therapy, Accupuncture, Laughing etc etc).
Yeah, it's not like I ever hear from anyone except homeopaths that I should sdrink and smoke less, take more exercise and eat healthier food.
  #326  
Old 14.04.2011, 09:37
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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Yeah, it's not like I ever hear from anyone except homeopaths that I should sdrink and smoke less, take more exercise and eat healthier food.
I have rarely if ever, heard these words from my Doctor.

However, those that see the costs benefits, the NHS etc , do advocate an holistic approach. The term "Mind Body and Soul" is key to health. Doctors treat 1/3 of that. Perhaps we need to move away from "Medical Doctors" and sideline them to a consultancy basis, having us first approach "Health Practitioners".
  #327  
Old 14.04.2011, 09:38
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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Probably all too simple for the scientific mind but sometimes the simple things in life are the most effective . Anyway why does science have the right to ignore 100,000 anecdotes to the contrary?
Because science is not based on the quantity of data obtained (say for example your 100000 "anecdotes"), but the statistical relevance of the data.
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  #328  
Old 14.04.2011, 09:48
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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I have rarely if ever, heard these words from my Doctor.

However, those that see the costs benefits, the NHS etc , do advocate an holistic approach. The term "Mind Body and Soul" is key to health. Doctors treat 1/3 of that. Perhaps we need to move away from "Medical Doctors" and sideline them to a consultancy basis, having us first approach "Health Practitioners".
Do you still go to your doctor? Does your homepath still prescribe you remedies despite the health advice? I reckon I know which one you pay more money to more often.

Yeah let's hand over early analysis and treatment to untrained charlatans, when they miss easily treatable diseases, you can blame the doctors for not being able to fix it afterwards.

Let's go full hog and suggest it as an alternative health plan, sell the masses water and tell them it's medicine. You can do away with expensive statistics, natural health freaks don't like them, then no one will know if anything works anymore, and you can just go around thinking, "well, it worked for me".
  #329  
Old 14.04.2011, 09:49
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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Because science is not based on the quantity of data obtained (say for example your 100000 "anecdotes"), but the statistical relevance of the data.
I do not follow. If you have 100K positive anecdotes in favour of a cure, how do you discard this on the basis of "statistical relevance ? Statistical relevance here sounds like subjective discarding. You cannot say 100K people were cured "by chance". Criticism of this value is meaningless without the sample size Please expand.
  #330  
Old 14.04.2011, 09:52
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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I do not follow. If you have 100K positive anecdotes in favour of a cure, how do you discard this on the basis of "statistical relevance ? Statistical relevance here sounds like subjective discarding. You cannot say 100K people were cured "by chance". Criticism of this value is meaningless without the sample size Please expand.
What if 10000 people died? you don't hear from them.
  #331  
Old 14.04.2011, 09:53
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Do you still go to your doctor? Does your homepath still prescribe you remedies despite the health advice? I reckon I know which one you pay more money to more often.

Yeah let's hand over early analysis and treatment to untrained charlatans, when they miss easily treatable diseases, you can blame the doctors for not being able to fix it afterwards.

Let's go full hog and suggest it as an alternative health plan, sell the masses water and tell them it's medicine. You can do away with expensive statistics, natural health freaks don't like them, then no one will know if anything works anymore, and you can just go around thinking, "well, it worked for me".
I do not go to a Homeopath. You confuse my knowledge on the subject with that of an experienced patient. I rarely go to a Dr. You twist my words.

I used the term "Health practitioner". That would mean many things to many people and includes anyone with the ability to bring about a positive improvement in somebody's health.
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Old 14.04.2011, 09:54
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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What if 10000 people died? you don't hear from them.
An extreme meaningless example. Let's stick to reasonable debate please.
  #333  
Old 14.04.2011, 09:57
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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I do not follow. If you have 100K positive anecdotes in favour of a cure, how do you discard this on the basis of "statistical relevance ? Statistical relevance here sounds like subjective discarding. You cannot say 100K people were cured "by chance". Criticism of this value is meaningless without the sample size Please expand.
UTH come on! 100k positive anecdotes are not the same as 100k people being cured. You understand that right? You've just found 100k morons. The Sun sells more.
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Old 14.04.2011, 09:58
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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An extreme meaningless example. Let's stick to reasonable debate please.
ok, 10000 people didn't get better. (Although homeopathy does kill, or rather convinces people it can cure things it can't,ie, everything)

Also, if you gave those 1000 people who were happy with homepathy, how many of them would be happy with a sugar pill too? If sugar pills work just as well as homepathy, you may as well give them sugar pills, it's cheaper. A homepath would not want you to do this.
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Old 14.04.2011, 09:58
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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I do not follow. If you have 100K positive anecdotes in favour of a cure, how do you discard this on the basis of "statistical relevance ? Statistical relevance here sounds like subjective discarding. You cannot say 100K people were cured "by chance". Criticism of this value is meaningless without the sample size Please expand.
I think that's the point. Who knows what sample size contained these 100K people, and if that sample size taking nothing but placebo would also yield 100K "cured" people.
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Old 14.04.2011, 10:02
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UTH come on! 100k positive anecdotes are not the same as 100k people being cured. You understand that right? You've just found 100k morons. The Sun sells more.
Hard to say, what are these anecdotes then, if not of people being cured ? What is 100K positive anecdotes ? The point being, it is very easy for science to discard positive anecdotes, in so much as a Court can free a rapist due to lack of evidence. How do you explain that to the victim... that she wasn't raped ?
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Old 14.04.2011, 10:03
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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Hard to say, what are these anecdotes then, if not of people being cured ? What is 100K positive anecdotes ? The point being, it is very easy for science to discard positive anecdotes, in so much as a Court can free a rapist due to lack of evidence. How do you explain that to the victim... that she wasn't raped ?
There's a difference between being cured, and just getting better. By using anecdotes you want to bypass that vital bit of information.
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Old 14.04.2011, 10:04
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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Hard to say, what are these anecdotes then, if not of people being cured ? What is 100K positive anecdotes ? The point being, it is very easy for science to discard positive anecdotes, in so much as a Court can free a rapist due to lack of evidence. How do you explain that to the victim... that she wasn't raped ?
The big difference is the victim knows she was raped. She probably has physical evidence for this.

The cured people do not have any evidence that they were cured by the homeopathic 'treatment'.
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Old 14.04.2011, 10:05
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ok, 10000 people didn't get better. (Although homeopathy does kill, or rather convinces people it can cure things it can't,ie, everything)

Also, if you gave those 1000 people who were happy with homepathy, how many of them would be happy with a sugar pill too? If sugar pills work just as well as homepathy, you may as well give them sugar pills, it's cheaper. A homepath would not want you to do this.
Homeopathy does not kill, in any abtstract sense. A homeopath would never in the first instance treat a life threatening case. Homeopaths are taught to work with Doctors and Consultants. Too often Homeopathy steps in when the latter has failed.

The following is very important to note....

Regulated practice
Members of the Faculty of Homeopathy are doctors and other statutorily registered healthcare professionals bound to act within the competence of their profession and their level of training and qualification in homeopathy. This means that a homeopathic medicine would not be prescribed when, for example, a conventional treatment is actually the better option for a patient.
  #340  
Old 14.04.2011, 10:07
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The big difference is the victim knows she was raped. She probably has physical evidence for this.

The cured people do not have any evidence that they were cured by the homeopathic 'treatment'.
Not enough evidence for a court of law to convict / read: Not enough evidence for a Scientist to believe. In your argument, having semen in the Vagina is not evidence of rape. Being cured is not proof of the cure.
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