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Old 14.04.2011, 11:47
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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No, you believe they're good grounds because they fit into what you believe to be correct. You could extend this to prayer or whatnot. The scientific evidence for either of these things working is about equal (there is none).

If they, say, prayed specifically to the Devil and got better, would those be good grounds for believing that the Devil is actually a benevolent dude who helps in time of disease? Whatever "works", amiright?
If, for whatever a person believes in, works for them, who are we to argue ?
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Old 14.04.2011, 11:47
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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Person is ill.
Person is told to take cure A and will get better.
Person takes cure A and gets better.
Person has good grounds to believe Cure A cured her.

Arguments for and against that logic have been posted already. But that person does have good grounds to believe.
Sorry, I just disagree with this. I don't believe the individual is in a good place to judge what made him or her better. It's nearly impossible to judge causality. Even when I take western medication (eg. antibiotics) I'm always sceptical about whether to start a course, gambling with myself when I'll get better anyway and when I do get better I guess how many days of illness the medication saved me. It's impossible to judge. Same with a headache. I have a headache, I take a pill. An hour later, sometimes I still have the headache, sometimes I don't. I'm not in a position to judge whether the pill worked for any specific headache I have because I can't open myself up to watch it work, so I have no real clue.
  #383  
Old 14.04.2011, 11:51
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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Sorry, I just disagree with this. I don't believe the individual is in a good place to judge what made him or her better. It's nearly impossible to judge causality. Even when I take western medication (eg. antibiotics) I'm always sceptical about whether to start a course, gambling with myself when I'll get better anyway and when I do get better I guess how many days of illness the medication saved me. It's impossible to judge. Same with a headache. I have a headache, I take a pill. An hour later, sometimes I still have the headache, sometimes I don't. I'm not in a position to judge whether the pill worked for any specific headache I have because I can't open myself up to watch it work, so I have no real clue.
Grounds to believe...

Tell a kid about the tooth fairy, money under pillow next morning, kid has grounds to believe. Same for Santa. Presents under the tree on the 25th. Kid has grounds to believe in Santa.

Pray , get better, person believes.

Accupuncture...person gets better.

How many hardened War vets carried a rabbits foot ?


Whatever belief system you have, if if works for you. Fine. Who cares why ?
  #384  
Old 14.04.2011, 11:58
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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Grounds to believe...

Tell a kid about the tooth fairy, money under pillow next morning, kid has grounds to believe. Same for Santa. Presents under the tree on the 25th. Kid has grounds to believe in Santa.

Pray , get better, person believes.

Accupuncture...person gets better.

How many hardened War vets carried a rabbits foot ?


Whatever belief system you have, if it works for you. Fine. Who cares why ?
But it doesn't. There's nothing wrong with carrying a rabbit's foot of course. Unless you think it makes you bullet proof in plain sight. Nothing wrong with believing in Santa, unless you eschew saving for that operation, because that's what you've asked Santa for. Nothing wrong with taking a homeopathic remedy. Nothing at all, it's just plain tap water, how could there be? But because it doesn't work (in any case, in the history of the world, ever, not once, seriously) it can be dangerous if a medically efficacious treatment is eschewed in favour of tapwater. But sure, if you've got hayfever and don't desperately mind itchy eyes, take some water. No problem. If your kid's got leukaemia and you go to a homeopathist (or whatever) instead of a doctor, go to jail for murder (seriously).
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Old 14.04.2011, 12:04
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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Whatever belief system you have, if if works for you. Fine. Who cares why ?

I care - if my tax money (or insurance premiums) is being used - I want some assurance that my money is being put to measurably, and realistic good use.

If that included prohibiting some conventional medicines because of, for example, high cost in relation to low cure rate then so be it.
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Old 14.04.2011, 12:08
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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But it doesn't. There's nothing wrong with carrying a rabbit's foot of course. Unless you think it makes you bullet proof in plain sight. Nothing wrong with believing in Santa, unless you eschew saving for that operation, because that's what you've asked Santa for. Nothing wrong with taking a homeopathic remedy. Nothing at all, it's just plain tap water, how could there be? But because it doesn't work (in any case, in the history of the world, ever, not once, seriously) it can be dangerous if a medically efficacious treatment is eschewed in favour of tapwater. But sure, if you've got hayfever and don't desperately mind itchy eyes, take some water. No problem. If your kid's got leukaemia and you go to a homeopathist (or whatever) instead of a doctor, go to jail for murder (seriously).
Let's not go around in circles on that one... if they are cured, then it has 'worked' for them. Nobody can prove otherwise, for or against in those specific circumstances.

No homeopath would treat, unaided by Doctors, anything so serious as Leukaemia. I have posted earlier about the scope of Homeopathy.

As for never ever working. Ever... That is impossible to prove for or against. Brave rhetorical superlative claims...
  #387  
Old 14.04.2011, 12:11
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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I care - if my tax money (or insurance premiums) is being used - I want some assurance that my money is being put to measurably, and realistic good use.

If that included prohibiting some conventional medicines because of, for example, high cost in relation to low cure rate then so be it.
It wouldn't be used it it was not having an effect.

People have a right to choose their treatment, just as you, using insurance premiums or tax dollars or otherwise. What next, Christian Governments banning Muslim prayers ?

In terms of cost to you, shall we say, homeopathic strength costs
  #388  
Old 14.04.2011, 12:13
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

These homeopathy threads remind me of an epic thread on my other favorite forum, regarding dousing.

The interesting thing was this forum is populated exclusively by engineers, toolmakers, and machinists. Folks whose brains are trained for logical thinking, and whose livelihood depends completely on cause and effect.

After some hundreds of posts it was eventually locked and is referred to lovingly now years later whenever someone tries to convey some idiotic idea.

If you start drilling in the ground there's a pretty good chance at some point you will hit water. Even in Tucson Arizona. Sometimes not. If you doused beforehand, then you credit dousing. If you follow a geological survey you probably have better chances of hitting water. The James Randi foundation has been challenged many many times by dousers, none of which have claimed the million dollar prize. Of course if Joe Dowser fails to win it's no big financial loss to anyone, however if a homeopath or scientist challenges the prize and loses, it's another BIG nail in the coffin of an industry's credibility and death to a scientist's career, so no surprise that Randi has only been challenged a couple of times on the subject.

I suppose in the end it's better to fanatically believe in homeopathy than to join something like Heaven's Gate or follow a Jim Jones. A little better. Same belief in unprovable nonsense though. Quantum buddism and all that. Funny how many folks have unbelievable beliefs. At least the Mormons have a cool backstory and are snappy dressers and good businessmen .
  #389  
Old 14.04.2011, 12:16
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

I once read that doctors giving homeopathic stuff in general invest more time in listening and talking to the patient. Having a positive feeling and trust that something works well does help, but if I see that a remedy alone does not get better results in testing than chance/placebo, I'll lose my faith in it and then it wouldn't even work as a placebo anymore..
What is the argument against testing?
  #390  
Old 14.04.2011, 12:16
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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Let's not go around in circles on that one... if they are cured, then it has 'worked' for them.
No, it hasn't. And the way I know that, is because you know that too - because you put quote marks around the word "worked". If I throw your laptop out the window, I'll break it. It'll be broken. For everyone. Not just for you. I won't be able to put quote marks around the word "broken", just like I can't put quote works around the word "working" to describe the current non-defenestrated state of your laptop.

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Nobody can prove otherwise, for or against in those specific circumstances.
Yes they can. Easily. And if you think they can't you don't really understand what "prove" means. I don't have to prove every iteration of an event individually to prove a concept and therefore prove each event. 600 million Chinese people speak Mandarin and the stars in the sky word by fusing hydrogen into helium. I neither have to interview each Chinese person nor visit every star to provably know my statements to be true.

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No homeopath would treat, unaided by Doctors, anything so serious as Leukaemia. I have posted earlier about the scope of Homeopathy.
Apparently they do. The morons.


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As for never ever working. Ever... That is impossible to prove for or against. Brave rhetorical superlative claims...
See above. I stand by my claim. Ever. Once. Ever.
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Old 14.04.2011, 12:31
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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...Quantum buddism and all that..
You mean where the Scientists are just coming to terms with the Buddhist concept of reality, and that reality is nothing. or were you referring to the external observer , the uncertainty principle, the double slit experiment, or the ground shaking proof that there is an external observer not within the physical world that is responsible for our Universal quantum mind that tells us we exist only because we think we exist ? (Non Local Causality) If you think today's scientists make a mockery of Homeopathy, wait till you read about what the QM's say about conventional Science and the nature of reality. Quantum Buddhists, for the last 300 years ago has been saying now, what QM's are just starting to realise.

It's a great topic for another thread....count me in.

Further reading first though...

Fritjof Capra’s “The Tao of Physics”
“Quantum Healing” by Deepak Chopra



Niels Bohr, who developed the Bohr Model of the atom, said,

"For a parallel to the lesson of atomic theory...[we must turn] to those kinds of epistemological problems with which already thinkers like the Buddha and Lao Tzu have been confronted, when trying to harmonize our position as spectators and actors in the great drama of existence.”

Nobel-prize winning philosopher Bertrand Russell described Buddhism as a speculative and scientific philosophy:

"Buddhism is a combination of both speculative and scientific philosophy. It advocates the scientific method and pursues that to a finality that may be called Rationalistic. In it are to be found answers to such questions of interest as: 'What is mind and matter? Of them, which is of greater importance? Is the universe moving towards a goal? What is man's position? Is there living that is noble?' It takes up where science cannot lead because of the limitations of the latter's instruments. Its conquests are those of the mind.”


The American physicist J. Robert Oppenheimer made an analogy to Buddhism when describing the Heisenberg uncertainty principle:

"If we ask, for instance, whether the position of the electron remains the same, we must say 'no;' if we ask whether the electron's position changes with time, we must say 'no;' if we ask whether the electron is at rest, we must say 'no;' if we ask whether it is in motion, we must say 'no.' The Buddha has given such answers when interrogated as to the conditions of man's self after his death; but they are not familiar answers for the tradition of seventeenth and eighteenth-century science.


There are also , within the ideas above, several scientific proofs on the Placebo Affect and the mind's ability to cure. Believing in something, a cure, can make that cure work.
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Old 14.04.2011, 12:43
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

Woah, Deepak Chopra, he's bringing out the big guns now.
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Old 14.04.2011, 12:49
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

If I sell someone London Bridge, and someone buys it, has a crime been committed? Bear in mind, in my court, only the anecdotal evidence should be admitted, any evidence that may show that I had nothing to sell should not be admitted on the grounds that the buyer believed he purchased it and so it might hurt his feelings to find out otherwise.
  #394  
Old 14.04.2011, 13:05
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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No, you believe they're good grounds because they fit into what you believe to be correct. You could extend this to prayer or whatnot. The scientific evidence for either of these things working is about equal (there is none).

If they, say, prayed specifically to the Devil and got better, would those be good grounds for believing that the Devil is actually a benevolent dude who helps in time of disease? Whatever "works", amiright?
great, this is becoming a religion debate.
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Old 14.04.2011, 13:07
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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If I sell someone London Bridge, and someone buys it, has a crime been committed? Bear in mind, in my court, only the anecdotal evidence should be admitted, any evidence that may show that I had nothing to sell should not be admitted on the grounds that the buyer believed he purchased it and so it might hurt his feelings to find out otherwise.
yes, as always with you...fraud.
  #396  
Old 14.04.2011, 13:08
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ou know they're bolloxed when they have to resort to "science"

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You mean where the Scientists are
...
bla bla bla
Nobel-prize winning philosopher Bertrand Russell described Buddhism as a speculative and scientific philosophy:
...
bla bla bla
The American physicist J. Robert Oppenheimer made an analogy to Buddhism when describing the Heisenberg uncertainty principle:
...
bla bla bla
...
Everyone else has been very polite, but actually...

Do yourself a favour, UtH . If you're going to quote science to justify nonscience, at least do us the favour of quoting something a bit "with it" e.g.. mid/late 20thC scientist - Feynman, for example.

Referring to QM, a theory already outdated almost a 100 years ago really doesn't cut the mustard. :msnsleep: Go read up on QED, or something more recent.

Seriously, mate. Take a step into the (mid-)20thC.
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Old 14.04.2011, 13:10
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Oops, wrong side :-(

Sorry, I forgot again
  #398  
Old 14.04.2011, 13:11
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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yes, as always with you...fraud.
If they really believed they owned london bridge, but didn't try too hard to test this fact, where's the harm? Who are you to butt in and dispute what the buyer believes?
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Old 14.04.2011, 13:18
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Re: ou know they're bolloxed when they have to resort to "science"

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Everyone else has been very polite, but actually...

Do yourself a favour, UtH . If you're going to quote science to justify nonscience, at least do us the favour of quoting something a bit "with it" e.g.. mid/late 20thC scientist - Feynman, for example.

Referring to QM, a theory already outdated almost a 100 years ago really doesn't cut the mustard. :msnsleep: Go read up on QED.

Seriously, mate. Take a step into the (mid-)20thC.
.
QM - Nonscience ?? QED is merely an offshoot. Or were you just trolling your pet theories against mine ?

Sorry WJ, I am bang up todate on this. A pet project for the last few years.
Still , if the published Scientists out there can't agree on this, then neither will we.

...and then again, mere semantics. Perhaps you were trying to refute my main points about external observers and non local causality etc ?
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Old 14.04.2011, 13:18
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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great, this is becoming a religion debate.
Didn't mean to scare you. T'was an example to gauge the irrationality of UtH's stance (and he didn't disappoint). Debate's evolved since then. Move along.
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