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Old 07.04.2011, 18:58
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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I'm sorry, could you name a supplier who does make the effort to make sure that their products work and I'll go check it out.
The only times I took "herbal" medicine was in China. Yes, I was seriously ill. Yes, the stuff kicked in easily as hard as real-life antibiotics and yes, it brought me back on my feed in record time. No idea what the active ingredients were as I cannot read Chinese lables and honestly could not care less if this just killed a endagered species - better the tiger than me.

I agree that the traditional Chinese medicine does not follow scientific standards, but is based on several thousand years of trial and error. It probably still has quite some error in it, but that does not mean that many herbal solutions are not effective.

The simple check question is "side effects?" If the answer is a clear "NO! IT'S ALL HERBAL" I would not touch it. If the doctor says "well, its kinda strong and could..." then it's typically good herbal medicine.

P.S: After working ofr a year with disabled people and especially MS patients, I can say that it is an open secret that weed works better than most artificial muscle relaxation meds.
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  #42  
Old 07.04.2011, 20:01
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

Saying herbal medicine generally is useless is not a very intelligent approach. After all, as stated above, many products made by the chemically oriented pharma industry are partly or entirely based on herbal substances, just, often but not always, in more concentrated form, with a longer shelf life etc., and, of course, much more expensive.

The fact that there is counterfeit money does not mean that all money is fake. The fact that there are snake oil peddlars does not mean that all natural remedy is a scam.

The trouble with homeopathy is, those guys spend far more time, energy and money on inventing excuses for the fact that homeopathy fails double-blind tests than on real research.

My AOH is a total homeopathy nut, and I'm good friends with one of the most prominent and influential homeopaths worldwide. Neither of them has ever been able to convincingly explain to me why double-blind studies cannot be applied to homeopathy. Sorry folks, that sucks. I love my OH all the same, and Yorgos still is a nice guy, though.
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Old 07.04.2011, 20:34
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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I think a billion Chinese people may disagree with you.
You never picked up on the sarcasm? A billion Chinese can't be wrong.
  #44  
Old 07.04.2011, 20:40
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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There's the big confusion- so many people equate homeopathy with herbal medicine. Someone reads legitimate results from proper lab testing of some herb, and then ends up buying some homeopathic water thinking they're getting the same thing.

Plants and stuff make up a huge base of modern Big Pharma products, they don't just invent drugs out of thin air .
Why does it seem to be flimsy in the eyes of many to work with the plants directly.

Pharma has a habit of distilling everything, homeopathy dilutes it but one seems to be more credible.

I am a big fan of plants. I am also ready to accept that things aren't necessarily as they seem and can deal with the fact that someone has been muttering over a solution whilst swinging his pendulum. As a rocket scientist once told me...

There is more going on between two slices of toast than just the cheese.
  #45  
Old 08.04.2011, 12:36
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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Saying herbal medicine generally is useless is not a very intelligent approach. After all, as stated above, many products made by the chemically oriented pharma industry are partly or entirely based on herbal substances, just, often but not always, in more concentrated form, with a longer shelf life etc., and, of course, much more expensive.
I'm not saying that herbal remedies are useless, just stating that general purveyors of herbal remedies are just as happy to sell you something useless as they are to sell you something useful, happy to trade on the "natural" aspect, implying it's all good for you. It's probably not bad for you, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it's all good.

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Herbal medicine has been around for thousands of years, indeed it has, but then we tested it, and the stuff that worked became "medicine"
  #46  
Old 08.04.2011, 12:53
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

Herbal medicines "made in Switzerland": http://www.zellerag.ch/
or http://www.phytoceuticals.ch/

I know both companies first hand and what they manufacture is anything but mumbo-jumbo-homeopathy. It's medicine.
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  #47  
Old 08.04.2011, 13:30
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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Went to the Pharmacy today to get a spray for leaking-like-tap-due-to-hayfever nose. I was offered a "natural" remedy or chemical. I chose the natural without checking the label and was about to leave the shop when I realised it was a "homeopathic" remedy. Promptly went back in and exchanged for a proper chemical alternative.
Why do proper pharmacies peddle in such rubbish?
Pity. You missed a perfect opportunity to test for yourself whether it was effective or not.
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Old 08.04.2011, 13:33
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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Herbal medicines "made in Switzerland": http://www.zellerag.ch/
or http://www.phytoceuticals.ch/

I know both companies first hand and what they manufacture is anything but mumbo-jumbo-homeopathy. It's medicine.
I stand corrected, but their very limited choice of products is telling on the industry as a whole.
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Old 08.04.2011, 13:45
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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Pity. You missed a perfect opportunity to test for yourself whether it was effective or not.
No. Anecdotal accounts, singly or in bulk, do not and never will constitute verifiable evidence.


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Old 08.04.2011, 13:50
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

Delicate, cold vodka works a treat for hayfever. As does espresso, granita style. So too sex, eating and sleeping, in which ever order appeals. A good physical fight is the best avenue; adrenline brings everything into focus. Alighting from a tram when some idiotic but damned soul tries to force their way on makes hayfever go away, David Banner / Hulk style. "Move!"

Those with hayfever will understand.
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Old 08.04.2011, 13:54
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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Why does it seem to be flimsy in the eyes of many to work with the plants directly. ...
I've often wondered whether there are synergistic effects from multiple active ingredients. By distilling one active ingredient, and using that, very successfully, to treat a condition, we could be missing out on some other really useful treatment. Perhaps this is one area that pharma misses out on, to an extent. Two chemicals single might be slightly beneficial, but together cure galloping lurgy. ( Mind you, given the MMR scare, it seems the public prefer single chemicals).

The only issue I have with herbal medicine is that you don't necessarily know how much of a particular active ingredient you're getting. Or what else you might be ingesting. At least with pharma, you're (fairly) sure of consistency. 400mg of ibuprofen is always 400mg of ibuprofen. Handfuls of feverfew vary wildly.
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Old 08.04.2011, 13:59
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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I've often wondered whether there are synergistic effects from multiple active ingredients. By distilling one active ingredient, and using that, very successfully, to treat a condition, we could be missing out on some other really useful treatment. Perhaps this is one area that pharma misses out on, to an extent. Two chemicals single might be slightly beneficial, but together cure galloping lurgy. ( Mind you, given the MMR scare, it seems the public prefer single chemicals).
Pretty sure most medicines aren't just "one" chemical. Also, many illnesses are treated with a range of drugs in combination.

AFAIK, a lot of research goes into making sure certain drugs don't produce undesirable side effects when used with others.
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Old 08.04.2011, 14:03
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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I've often wondered whether there are synergistic effects from multiple active ingredients. By distilling one active ingredient, and using that, very successfully, to treat a condition, we could be missing out on some other really useful treatment. Perhaps this is one area that pharma misses out on, to an extent. Two chemicals single might be slightly beneficial, but together cure galloping lurgy. ( Mind you, given the MMR scare, it seems the public prefer single chemicals).

The only issue I have with herbal medicine is that you don't necessarily know how much of a particular active ingredient you're getting. Or what else you might be ingesting. At least with pharma, you're (fairly) sure of consistency. 400mg of ibuprofen is always 400mg of ibuprofen. Handfuls of feverfew vary wildly.
Pharmaceutical products which are to be sold in Switzerland - be they chemical or herbal - must be approved by this body: http://www.swissmedic.ch/ and the criteria for approval are quite strict
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Old 08.04.2011, 14:12
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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Old 08.04.2011, 14:17
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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Hypercal ? Calendula ?

It works
Yes something with Calendula, the stuff is great...
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Old 08.04.2011, 14:20
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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Bloody Herbalists. They didn't do a good enough job of burning them all at the stake all those years ago. That botanical knowledge was going nowhere! Crazy herbalist or pharmaceutical company? I know who I'd rather trust.

Plants are for pussies. Viva pharmaceuticals!
Quite a different thing herbs and "homeopathy". I take jazmin tea when in "those days" the only thing that relieves my pain (besides a good Ponstan)
  #57  
Old 08.04.2011, 14:43
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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The simple check question is "side effects?" If the answer is a clear "NO! IT'S ALL HERBAL" I would not touch it. If the doctor says "well, its kinda strong and could..." then it's typically good herbal medicine.
The only time I've taken herbal medicine in tablet form was Echinacea (it was recommended for its immune system boosting properties).

It nothing I could measure for my immune system but did cause me to black-out a few times. I stopped using it and then, in the pursuit of knowledge with regard to the black-outs (I was concerned they were something more serious), I tried it again a month or so later. Again I had the blackouts.

There were side-effects mentioned on the bottle but none like this which would suggest that driving a vehicle or anything like that would be dangerous.
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Old 08.04.2011, 14:45
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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The only time I've taken herbal medicine in tablet form was Echinacea (it was recommended for its immune system boosting properties).

It nothing I could measure for my immune system but did cause me to black-out a few times. I stopped using it and then, in the pursuit of knowledge with regard to the black-outs (I was concerned they were something more serious), I tried it again a month or so later. Again I had the blackouts.

There were side-effects mentioned on the bottle but none like this which would suggest that driving a vehicle or anything like that would be dangerous.

You are not supposed to put the whole bottle up your nose !
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Old 08.04.2011, 14:53
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Quite a different thing herbs and "homeopathy".
Indeed. Most of us here are arguing hard to fundamentally agree that with each other

But it's a standard fogging technique, here and elsewhere, used time and again by pro-homeopaths to divert the discussion away from "homeopathic treatments" to "natural treatments" and challenge people on the herbal thing, conveniently getting away from the harsh reality that homeopathy is pure snake-oil.


Without the snake.



And also without the oil.

.
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Old 08.04.2011, 20:11
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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No. Anecdotal accounts, singly or in bulk, do not and never will constitute verifiable evidence.
Whose talking about verifiable evidence? I was thinking more in terms of proving/disproving for one's own satisfaction/interest!
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