Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Family matters/health  
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #101  
Old 11.04.2011, 12:16
economisto
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

Quote:
View Post
Wasn't homeopathy dreamed up in the west? By some guy who ran out of dubious cures and came up with the genius idea of telling people they were stronger if diluted.
Was it the same dude as the Scientology thing? Both seem similarly grounded in observable data.
  #102  
Old 11.04.2011, 12:18
economisto
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

Quote:
View Post
It's such a lovely day, far too good to spend time debating with the closed eyes.
Uhm...can you stop diluting the thread. Taking it off topic brings it ever further on topic....somehow.
The following 4 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #103  
Old 11.04.2011, 12:19
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: -
Posts: 1,640
Groaned at 26 Times in 22 Posts
Thanked 2,932 Times in 1,202 Posts
Russkov has a reputation beyond reputeRusskov has a reputation beyond reputeRusskov has a reputation beyond reputeRusskov has a reputation beyond reputeRusskov has a reputation beyond reputeRusskov has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

Quote:
View Post
It's such a lovely day, far too good to spend time debating with the closed eyes.
Or they were closed, until anti-biotics cured my bacterial conjunctivitus.
  #104  
Old 11.04.2011, 12:19
Upthehatters2008's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: In the kitchen at parties.
Posts: 4,540
Groaned at 204 Times in 120 Posts
Thanked 6,078 Times in 2,378 Posts
Upthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

As for the dilution thing, Science is starting to wake up a bit...

Thermodynamics of extremely diluted aqueous solutions

Jun 1999
Vittorio Elia and Marcella Niccoli
Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences, June 1999

An extensive thermodynamic study has been carried out on aqueous solutions obtained through successive dilutions and succussions of 1% in weight of some solutes up to extremely diluted solutions, (less than 1x10-5 mol kg-1) obtained via several 1/100 successive dilution processes. The interaction of acids or bases with the extremely diluted solutions has been studied calorimetrically at 25°C. Measurements have been performed of the heats of mixing of acid or basic solutions, having different concentrations, with bidistilled water or with the extremely diluted solutions. Despite the extreme dilution of the solutions, an exothermic heat of mixing in excess has been found, in about the 92% of the cases, with respect to the corresponding heat of mixing with the untreated solvent. Here [it is shown] that successive dilutions and succussions may alter permanently the physical-chemical properties of the solvent water. The nature of the phenomena here described still remains unexplained, but significant experimental results are obtained.
  #105  
Old 11.04.2011, 12:26
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

Quote:
View Post
As for the dilution thing, Science is starting to wake up a bit...

Thermodynamics of extremely diluted aqueous solutions

Jun 1999
Vittorio Elia and Marcella Niccoli
Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences, June 1999

An extensive thermodynamic study has been carried out on aqueous solutions obtained through successive dilutions and succussions of 1% in weight of some solutes up to extremely diluted solutions, (less than 1x10-5 mol kg-1) obtained via several 1/100 successive dilution processes. The interaction of acids or bases with the extremely diluted solutions has been studied calorimetrically at 25°C. Measurements have been performed of the heats of mixing of acid or basic solutions, having different concentrations, with bidistilled water or with the extremely diluted solutions. Despite the extreme dilution of the solutions, an exothermic heat of mixing in excess has been found, in about the 92% of the cases, with respect to the corresponding heat of mixing with the untreated solvent. Here [it is shown] that successive dilutions and succussions may alter permanently the physical-chemical properties of the solvent water. The nature of the phenomena here described still remains unexplained, but significant experimental results are obtained.
Bottom line question is: did it make any difference to its efficacy on the human body?

What looks like huge changes in thermodynamics can, in reality, be likened to the difference of putting 832 grains of sugar in your coffee instead of 850 but it wouldn't necessarily make you slimmer.

EDIT - I'm not saying anything is wrong with what you wrote but in terms of homeopathy (as well as normal medicine), the end effect is what people are looking for.
  #106  
Old 11.04.2011, 12:27
economisto
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

Quote:
View Post
As for the dilution thing, Science is starting to wake up a bit...
yes. Stupid, stupid science....asleep for so long, has finally awoken with this study.
  #107  
Old 11.04.2011, 12:32
Upthehatters2008's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: In the kitchen at parties.
Posts: 4,540
Groaned at 204 Times in 120 Posts
Thanked 6,078 Times in 2,378 Posts
Upthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

Quote:
View Post
yes. Stupid, stupid science....asleep for so long, has finally awoken with this study.
These things take time. Allow them their epiphany .
  #108  
Old 11.04.2011, 12:33
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 12,361
Groaned at 340 Times in 276 Posts
Thanked 26,264 Times in 11,001 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

Quote:
View Post
Wasn't homeopathy dreamed up in the west? By some guy who ran out of dubious cures and came up with the genius idea of telling people they were stronger if diluted.
Yes it was. And it was invented at a time that understanding of the causes of illnesses was quite different to what it is today.
  #109  
Old 11.04.2011, 12:33
Robbster's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Basel
Posts: 99
Groaned at 2 Times in 1 Post
Thanked 28 Times in 22 Posts
Robbster has earned some respectRobbster has earned some respect
Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

Personally I would never go into a Pharmacy without knowing exactly what I want...Research.. Research.. Research..

I can't stand it when they try to give you something else..I know what I want and I want it now...if you don't have it I will go elsewhere..no problem

If it is a POM then..I give you prescription..you bottle up the drug..I pay..I walk out...thank you...If no specific brand is mentioned then I research it..
  #110  
Old 11.04.2011, 12:36
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

Quote:
View Post
As for the dilution thing, Science is starting to wake up a bit...

Thermodynamics of extremely diluted aqueous solutions

Jun 1999
Vittorio Elia and Marcella Niccoli
Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences, June 1999

An extensive thermodynamic study has been carried out on aqueous solutions obtained through successive dilutions and succussions of 1% in weight of some solutes up to extremely diluted solutions, (less than 1x10-5 mol kg-1) obtained via several 1/100 successive dilution processes. The interaction of acids or bases with the extremely diluted solutions has been studied calorimetrically at 25°C. Measurements have been performed of the heats of mixing of acid or basic solutions, having different concentrations, with bidistilled water or with the extremely diluted solutions. Despite the extreme dilution of the solutions, an exothermic heat of mixing in excess has been found, in about the 92% of the cases, with respect to the corresponding heat of mixing with the untreated solvent. Here [it is shown] that successive dilutions and succussions may alter permanently the physical-chemical properties of the solvent water. The nature of the phenomena here described still remains unexplained, but significant experimental results are obtained.

Nice try, but no cigar.


Since we all know that a mole is 6x10^23 molecules, one can easily see that they're dealing with solutions that still have 6x10^18 molecules per kilo of solution.

That's science.


According to that nice Mr Hahneman, the "inventor" of homeopathy a couple of hundred years ago, (so let's all drop the "n billion Chinese can't be wrong" nonsense), a good homeopathic mix is 60C (i.e. a dilution of 10^-60), in which case one would typically need to give two billion doses per second to six billion people for 4 billion years to deliver a single molecule of the original material to any patient.

That's quite a lot.
The following 2 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #111  
Old 11.04.2011, 12:41
Upthehatters2008's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: In the kitchen at parties.
Posts: 4,540
Groaned at 204 Times in 120 Posts
Thanked 6,078 Times in 2,378 Posts
Upthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

They still have 10c/30 remedies which are the most popular... I have never seen a 60c remedy. (Although 1M's are not uncommon either)

I am sure if the tests were extrapolated to higher dilutions, similar results would prevail. There are plenty more studies on effects at dilution. Scientific stuff too...

Quote:
View Post
Nice try, but no cigar.


Since we all know that a mole is 6x10^23 molecules, one can easily see that they're dealing with solutions that still have 6x10^18 molecules per kilo of solution.

That's science.


According to that nice Mr Hahneman, the "inventor" of homeopathy a couple of hundred years ago, (so let's all drop the "n billion Chinese can't be wrong" nonsense), a good homeopathic mix is 60C (i.e. a dilution of 10^-60), in which case one would typically need to give two billion doses per second to six billion people for 4 billion years to deliver a single molecule of the original material to any patient.

That's quite a lot.
  #112  
Old 11.04.2011, 12:48
terryhall's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Die Südkürve
Posts: 1,790
Groaned at 11 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 1,030 Times in 552 Posts
terryhall has a reputation beyond reputeterryhall has a reputation beyond reputeterryhall has a reputation beyond reputeterryhall has a reputation beyond reputeterryhall has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

Are there any studies from within the last 10 years? Just that I note the "wake up" study that you quoted before is from 1999.... 12 years ago...
  #113  
Old 11.04.2011, 12:51
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

Quote:
View Post
They still have 10c/30 remedies which are the most popular... I have never seen a 60c remedy. (Although 1M's are not uncommon either)

I am sure if the tests were extrapolated to higher dilutions, similar results would prevail. There are plenty more studies on effects at dilution. Scientific stuff too...
Oops, my bad!!!


My mistake, that description was for a 60X dilution, which is of course the same as a 30C dilution, which as you say is very popular, and is as originally promoted by Mr Hahnenwasser Hahneman.
  #114  
Old 11.04.2011, 12:54
Upthehatters2008's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: In the kitchen at parties.
Posts: 4,540
Groaned at 204 Times in 120 Posts
Thanked 6,078 Times in 2,378 Posts
Upthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

Quote:
View Post
Are there any studies from within the last 10 years? Just that I note the "wake up" study that you quoted before is from 1999.... 12 years ago...
...and Newtons laws are how old ?
  #115  
Old 11.04.2011, 12:58
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

Quote:
View Post
...and Newtons laws are how old ?
Another nice one! Totally irrelevant non sequitur, but gets you out of the corner
  #116  
Old 11.04.2011, 13:02
terryhall's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Die Südkürve
Posts: 1,790
Groaned at 11 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 1,030 Times in 552 Posts
terryhall has a reputation beyond reputeterryhall has a reputation beyond reputeterryhall has a reputation beyond reputeterryhall has a reputation beyond reputeterryhall has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

Quote:
View Post
...and Newtons laws are how old ?
Newtons Laws, as anyone quoting them in scientific context will attest, are still referred to as "Experimental Theories", as they remain unproven beyond doubt.

So, any recent studies?
  #117  
Old 11.04.2011, 13:02
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

Quote:
View Post
...and Newtons laws are how old ?
But even many of Newton's laws of physics were "replaced" by Einstein's theory of relativity. This is simply because Newton's laws were centred around classical physics based on mechanics. Newton's laws weren't sufficient enough to deal with wider questions regarding space-time as it regarded that as an absoulute.

And that's the beauty of science. A theory remains a theory until someone can proove otherwise. At present, no study ever conducted can proove that homeopathy has any effect on human health beyond that of the placebo effect.

Until such a study prooves otherwise, my mind will not be altered on the matter.
The following 2 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #118  
Old 11.04.2011, 13:03
Upthehatters2008's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: In the kitchen at parties.
Posts: 4,540
Groaned at 204 Times in 120 Posts
Thanked 6,078 Times in 2,378 Posts
Upthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

Quote:
View Post
Another nice one! Totally irrelevant non sequitur, but gets you out of the corner
Seriously though, 12 years in Scientific research is negligible. I fail to see the weight in arguing that a report is over xx years old. Funding does not simply allow for such a high turnover in prove/disprove/re-research etc.

Science, should of course be absolute. Age of scientific fact should be irrelevant.
  #119  
Old 11.04.2011, 13:07
Carlos R's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Roundn'about Basel
Posts: 7,232
Groaned at 105 Times in 95 Posts
Thanked 9,934 Times in 4,178 Posts
Carlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

Quote:
View Post
Seriously though, 12 years in Scientific research is negligible. I fail to see the weight in arguing that a report is over xx years old. Funding does not simply allow for such a high turnover in prove/disprove/re-research etc.

Science, should of course be absolute. Age of scientific fact should be irrelevant.
I would counter that with two points:

1. 12 years in medical science is quite a lot

2. One study in 12 years - not even looking at treatment outcomes in humans, at that - is hardly a huge weight of evidence, is it now - it shows no benefit, nor suggests any real mechanism by which this might actually be relevant to medicine

...but I guess it does kinda tap in to the whole "dilution" of material idea, i.e. one study in hundreds of thousands of other studies, so it must, de facto, be a more powerful study that all the other "real" ones...
__________________
Never let right or wrong get in the way of a good opinion
  #120  
Old 11.04.2011, 13:08
Upthehatters2008's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: In the kitchen at parties.
Posts: 4,540
Groaned at 204 Times in 120 Posts
Thanked 6,078 Times in 2,378 Posts
Upthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

Quote:
View Post
But even many of Newton's laws of physics were "replaced" by Einstein's theory of relativity. This is simply because Newton's laws were centred around classical physics based on mechanics. Newton's laws weren't sufficient enough to deal with wider questions regarding space-time as it regarded that as an absoulute.

And that's the beauty of science. A theory remains a theory until someone can proove otherwise. At present, no study ever conducted can proove that homeopathy has any effect on human health beyond that of the placebo effect.

Until such a study prooves otherwise, my mind will not be altered on the matter.
...and there you have it. Science contradicts itself. Even QM is dividing community. Turn the clocks forward a 1000 years -would you still trust your current scientific teachings as fact ? Science generates more questions than answers. Like any any Law though, it is accepted not because it is the best, but because it's all we have.

With that in mind, and with everything around Homeopathy being argued, give it some room until the base foundations (dilution effect etc) are fully researched and proven or disproven.
Closed Thread




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Oh, strike again s'il vous plait Macchiato International affairs/politics 12 04.12.2010 01:07
lufthansa strike swissotter International affairs/politics 1 22.02.2010 16:08
Managed anti-spam and anti-virus service for individual domain-owners spamchek Commercial 0 13.05.2005 12:22


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 19:46.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0