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Old 11.04.2011, 12:09
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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I would counter that with two points:

1. 12 years in medical science is quite a lot

2. One study in 12 years - not even looking at treatment outcomes in humans, at that - is hardly a huge weight of evidence, is it now
12 years is quite a lot when companies are looking to improve products, not though for theory or laws.

There are quite a few more studies into high dilutions. I just chose one (albeit the only one I could quickly understand).
  #122  
Old 11.04.2011, 12:11
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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Seriously though, 12 years in Scientific research is negligible. I fail to see the weight in arguing that a report is over xx years old. Funding does not simply allow for such a high turnover in prove/disprove/re-research etc.

Science, should of course be absolute. Age of scientific fact should be irrelevant.
Another nice one! Quote a scientific paper as "evidence", get challenged on it, then say "hey, we shouldn't be worrying about this..."


Brilliant! Bl**dy brilliant! "What's next?", I ask myself!!!


Cat ate it? Fire alarm just went off? Grandma died?
  #123  
Old 11.04.2011, 12:13
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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.
With that in mind, and with everything around Homeopathy being argued, give it some room until the base foundations (dilution effect etc) are fully researched and proven or disproven.
Surely they just have to put a dose of it in a petri-dish of the corresponding disease/condition/general nasty, set it against another petri-dish being treated with conventional medicine and a control petri-dish with no interference and see which one does the trick.

Chuck the treatment that has the lesser (or no effect) in the nearest bio-waste bin and sell the effective one, homeopathic or conventional.

Maybe I'm oversimplifying it but is that so hard?
  #124  
Old 11.04.2011, 12:15
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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Surely they just have to put a dose of it in a petri-dish of the corresponding disease/condition/general nasty, set it against another petri-dish being treated with conventional medicine and a control petri-dish with no interference and see which one does the trick.

Chuck the treatment that has the lesser (or no effect) in the nearest bio-waste bin and sell the effective one, homeopathic or conventional.

Maybe I'm oversimplifying it but is that so hard?
Way off the mark. Homeopathy is supposed to stimulate the body's own immune system. How do you reproduce that in a Petri dish ?
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  #125  
Old 11.04.2011, 12:16
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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Surely they just have to put a dose of it in a petri-dish of the corresponding disease/condition/general nasty, set it against another petri-dish being treated with conventional medicine and a control petri-dish with no interference and see which one does the trick.

Chuck the treatment that has the lesser (or no effect) in the nearest bio-waste bin and sell the effective one, homeopathic or conventional.

Maybe I'm oversimplifying it but is that so hard?
I'll save UtH the trouble on this one:
"But that's not how homeopathy works...""

  #126  
Old 11.04.2011, 12:16
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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Another nice one! Quote a scientific paper as "evidence", get challenged on it, then say "hey, we shouldn't be worrying about this..."
:
But I didn't ? In any form...
  #127  
Old 11.04.2011, 12:17
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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I'll save UtH the trouble on this one:
"But that's not how homeopathy works...""

Oh c'mon. How many cures for cancer or hayfever can be tested in a Petri dish ???
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Old 11.04.2011, 12:18
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...and there you have it. Science contradicts itself. Even QM is dividing community. Turn the clocks forward a 1000 years -would you still trust your current scientific teachings as fact ? Science generates more questions than answers. Like any any Law though, it is accepted not because it is the best, but because it's all we have.

With that in mind, and with everything around Homeopathy being argued, give it some room until the base foundations (dilution effect etc) are fully researched and proven or disproven.

That's the point! Of course science is constantly changing and evolving as our knowlege and understanding grows. So you are probably right that in 1000 years from now there will be far more elegant theroies on a whole number of subject matter than what we have at the moment. But that doesn't mean to say what we have at the moment is nonsense.

So why should I give homeopathy the benefit of the doubt when there are absolutly no studies that proove it's worth. I would much rather focus on the science rather than look for holes in our understanding. If we all did that then science wouldn't move on whatsoever.
  #129  
Old 11.04.2011, 12:18
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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Way off the mark. Homeopathy is supposed to stimulate the body's own immune system. How do you reproduce that in a Petri dish ?


Woah there cowboy!

So you're saying that the in vitro thermodynamics study you quoted is completely irrelevant...

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Old 11.04.2011, 12:19
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Way off the mark. Homeopathy is supposed to stimulate the body's own immune system. How do you reproduce that in a Petri dish ?
Doesn't a virus or bacteria's presence already stimulate the immune system into action naturally, though? That would kind of make homeopathy redundant, no?

The only thing left for it to do would be to aid the killing and removal of the bug and, if it can do this, surely it would be apparent in the petri-dish?
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Old 11.04.2011, 12:20
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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Oh c'mon. How many cures for cancer or hayfever can be tested in a Petri dish ???
ALL medications started by testing in a petri dish (or tissue culture flask to be accurate) . It's one of the 1st screening assays.
  #132  
Old 11.04.2011, 12:20
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Oh c'mon. How many cures for cancer or hayfever can be tested in a Petri dish ???
Can't speak regarding hayfever, but regarding cancer - all of them.
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Old 11.04.2011, 12:21
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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Woah there cowboy!

So you're saying that the in vitro thermodynamics study you quoted is completely irrelevant...

No, I am saying that you cannot test homeopathic effects on an immune system without an immune system.

The study I quoted was to cool the heat on people laughing at the effects of dilution.
  #134  
Old 11.04.2011, 12:23
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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Way off the mark. Homeopathy is supposed to stimulate the body's own immune system. How do you reproduce that in a Petri dish ?
If it stimulates the immune system, when why is it "supposed" to alleviate hay fever symptoms, a condition caused by an over-reactive immune response (release of histamines from Mast cells after overreaction to an allergen by IgE).
  #135  
Old 11.04.2011, 12:23
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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The study I quoted was to cool the heat on people laughing at the effects of dilution.
In a truly homeopathic way, the study you quoted was so weak that its potency has us laughing even louder now
  #136  
Old 11.04.2011, 12:25
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

I notice you conveniently didn't reply to my last post about Newtons "Laws" still being unproven beyond doubt - with that in mind, how long do you want to leave homeopathy on the table until it can be "proven"?

If you can show me a double-blind study that displayed markedly different results between a homeopathic remedy, and a normal glass of water, given that both were administered to the patient as being a homeopathic remedy, then I would have some sympathy for your arguments.

Unfortunately, you seem to be following a path of selective response to challenges to your position, obfuscatory comments on unrelated topics, and circular debate. Classic signs of the Troll at work...
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  #137  
Old 11.04.2011, 12:28
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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No, I am saying that you cannot test homeopathic effects on an immune system without an immune system.

The study I quoted was to cool the heat on people laughing at the effects of dilution.
Sorry UTH, but that's a bit of a homeopathic face palm...



By implication, you are saying that there's something in the dilution (i.e. thermodynamic properties), therefore there's something in homeopathy (through some sort of thermodynamic effect), therefore there's a cure. If you're not, then the reference is completely irrelevant.

For the record there are lots of effects of mixing x with y with z, or diluting a from b, but they have no therapeutic relevance.

What most of us here are saying that by dilution there's nothing in it (homeopathy). Punkt.
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Old 11.04.2011, 12:29
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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Oh c'mon. How many cures for cancer or hayfever can be tested in a Petri dish ???
Judging by the petri-dishes I used to find in our fridge at home, and the fact that my wife was working in cancer research at the time, I'd say quite a few
  #139  
Old 11.04.2011, 12:32
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Re: Strike 1 for the anti-homeopathicists

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I notice you conveniently didn't reply to my last post about Newtons "Laws" still being unproven beyond doubt - with that in mind, how long do you want to leave homeopathy on the table until it can be "proven"?

If you can show me a double-blind study that displayed markedly different results between a homeopathic remedy, and a normal glass of water, given that both were administered to the patient as being a homeopathic remedy, then I would have some sympathy for your arguments.

Unfortunately, you seem to be following a path of selective response to challenges to your position, obfuscatory comments on unrelated topics, and circular debate. Classic signs of the Troll at work...
Bear with me, it's 8 to 1 on this thread, I have kids to look after and am trying to keep up.

Not too sure what you mean by "they remain unproven beyond doubt".

Aren't people here arguing that Homeopathy remains unproven beyond doubt ?

Far from obfuscating the facts, I have been correcting the people misquoting what Homeopathy is all about. Please go back and re-read my threads,

Now, before you go calling anyone a Troll , please look up the real meaning of this word, in context. It seems you fall foul of your own accusations.
  #140  
Old 11.04.2011, 12:32
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Way off the mark. Homeopathy is supposed to stimulate the body's own immune system. How do you reproduce that in a Petri dish ?
Well first you need some cell with a virus or disease. Then if you want to reproduce the body's own immune system then do you know what you do?

BANG IN SOME IMMUNE CELLS. Some macrophages and dendritic cells will do the trick nicely.

Add you homeopathic remedy. Adjust the osmolarity to make sure it doesn't have any effect.

Wait and see nothing happen.


Oh yeh and this thread again? Seriously?
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