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Old 21.04.2011, 11:56
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Kids with a native language other than German became majority in Schools in Zurich as

Non-native German kids became majority in Zurich as of 2010. Unfortunately, they are also overwhelming majority in C and B secondary schools and are almost non present in gymnasiums. Why is that? This is basically impossible that native Germans are gifted and the others are not. And what we, parenting expats living in Switzerland can do to equalize our kids chances?
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Old 21.04.2011, 11:59
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Re: Non-native German kids became majority in Zurich

Maybe before everyone goes beserk on this one, you should make a decent translation of the article in the newspaper. This is really not what it said.
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Old 21.04.2011, 12:01
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Re: Non-native German kids became majority in Zurich

Just to clear this up a bit...

Last edited by herc82; 21.04.2011 at 12:09. Reason: added info
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Old 21.04.2011, 12:32
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Re: Non-native German kids became majority in Zurich

Here is a translated version via Google Translate

This is a (fairly) familiar story, one of the differences (to me) is that it is "our" kids they're talking about instead of "theirs" (as I am part of the minority now vs how it was for me before with Spanish-speaking children I encountered in Florida who were from disadvantaged backgrounds).

Another one of the differences is that the children and families I'd encountered before (again, Spanish-speaking in Florida) were families who had moved to Florida seeking a better life, not as a temporary change but with the intent of it being permanent. Some of the folks mentioned in the article see themselves as only temporary residents, not immigrants.


Anyhow, it's not unknown for children who are from disadvantaged backgrounds and / or who have parents who themselves are not academically inclined (whether a question of drive or aptitude, the result often is similar) to not do as well in school, particularly in the study areas leading toward college / uni.
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Old 21.04.2011, 12:49
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Re: Non-native German kids became majority in Zurich

A not uncommon attitude among teachers my children have encountered is an obsession with German. That if the child cannot speak with absolute fluency, then they're not going to get to the top levels of school. This applies to Swiss/German kids as well. The chances of speaking to the "required" level, (in quotes, since this is a teacher preference, rather than official dogma), are rather enhanced if the parents of the child speak good Schriftdeutsch at home.

My son had various teachers like this, since we arrived here 9 years ago. Including his biology teacher in pro-gym who told him he wouldn't get into Gymnasium with his level of German. And his German teacher in Gym, who told him he wouldn't get into university with his level of German. ( He's going to Basel university in September, to study Physics).

My daughter had this from her primary teacher, who insisted she should go to Realschule - lowest level - because her German wasn't good enough for her to cope. Within four months of the first term, her Realschule teacher proposed that she go up a level. She's now in Secondary, and getting grades that will get her into Gym, and thence to university.

If your child is bright, but his/her German is considered to be deficient, the best thing to do is get a tutor, who will help the child with the German language aspects of the child's lessons - across the curriuculum. Also, look carefully at the rules. We discovered that in Baselland at least, if neither parent is a fluent German speaker, then the teacher can ignore (or give less weight) to German proficiency. It seems the rules and procedures are in place to deal with this issue, but some teachers aren't aware of it, and still have the obsession with the language, that was instilled in them, when they went through the system.
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Old 21.04.2011, 13:10
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Re: Non-native German kids became majority in Zurich

Please be carefull how you quote. Deutschsprachige Kinder means German speaking children - not German children, nor native Germans.

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Non-native German kids became majority in Zurich as of 2010. Unfortunately, they are also overwhelming majority in C and B secondary schools and are almost non present in gymnasiums. Why is that? This is basically impossible that native Germans are gifted and the others are not. And what we, parenting expats living in Switzerland can do to equalize our kids chances?
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Old 21.04.2011, 13:43
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Re: Non-native German kids became majority in Zurich

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Please be carefull how you quote. Deutschsprachige Kinder means German speaking children - not German children, nor native Germans.
Thanks for pointing this out.

The article says, that:
Quote:
Als fremdsprachig gelten auch Kinder, die gut Deutsch sprechen und einen Schweizer Pass haben, aber eine andere Muttersprache sprechen.
Children who speak good German and have a Swiss pass, but speak a different native language are considered as foreign speaking children.

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Umgekehrt werden Kinder aus Deutschland oder Österreich ohne Schweizer Pass den Deutschsprachigen zugerechnet.
Children from Germany or Austria, without a Swiss passport, are considered as German speaking.

Although I made a shortcut here, I meant non native German speaking, not non native German.


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Old 21.04.2011, 14:01
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Re: Non-native German kids became majority in Zurich

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Although I made a shortcut here, I meant non native German speaking, not non native German.
Ok, I will put this into relation. A study has shown that in Germany, in large cities children with both parents being German are 14 times (!) more likely to end up at a university than the children with both parents being first generation immigrants.

To cut a very long story short: It is not the language alone. It is a question of the entire social structure, values people have and economic situation people are in. Poorer children from big families with low educated parents growing up in the poorer part of a city are less likely to get a good education than the single child of two academics living in the best suburb. That's unfair, but simply a reality - not only in Germany or Switzerland, but probably anywhere in the world.
The difference is that in Zurich, which is what the article is about, the non-German speaking population is on average far less educated, lower earning and socially in a less favourable situation to get their kids into college. So you can make a funny statistic based on mother tongue...
That there is a minority of well educated, high earning non-German speaking expats does not change the average much.

So: I would make the bet that if you compare the educational successes of children of similarly educated, earning and living parents you would not find a massive difference between Swiss, English, German or whatever else parents.
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Old 21.04.2011, 14:05
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Re: Non-native German kids became majority in Zurich

I didn't bother reading the article. I am more curious (and upset) why my teachers never looked like the one in the photo.
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Old 21.04.2011, 15:12
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Re: Non-native German kids became majority in Zurich

Here is my dilemma:
I am marking German essays, student with balkanic name wrote five pages. Normal length, quite a few interesting parts, some weaker ones. But even if the student is able to explain his thoughts, student is clearly not German mother tongue speaker. Clumsy, sometimes wrong structure, missing Fachsprache (specialized vocab?), lengthy explanations showing a deficit in vocabulary, not idiomatic expression. Short: like my English on this forum.
How do I grade that essay? How much influence the language will have on the final grade? Would a more idiomatic language give a better grade for the same content? Isn't it fair to take also language skills into consideration when grading?
Now let's say this student gets one point less compared to German mother tongue speakers... tranfered over to the whole school population, we end up with a lower average for students with foreign language background. Is that fair? Well, that's exactly my dilemma.

I do not have an answer to my dilemma. I really don't. But it is the same problem in bilingual section German/French when Swiss German and Jura-Romands write the same essay... my dear students with German background are bilingual but there is still a difference when put in the same pile of essays as the French mother tongue speakers.
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Old 21.04.2011, 15:49
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Re: Non-native German kids became majority in Zurich

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Well, that's exactly my dilemma.

I do not have an answer to my dilemma. I really don't.

Easy! you be nice and give everybody good grades...
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Old 21.04.2011, 15:54
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Re: Non-native German kids became majority in Zurich

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I didn't bother reading the article. I am more curious (and upset) why my teachers never looked like the one in the photo.

any issues this article brings up can be easily remedied through a serious of 'parent-teacher' meetings
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Old 21.04.2011, 15:56
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Re: Non-native German kids became majority in Zurich

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any issues this article brings up can be easily remedied through a serious of 'parent-teacher' meetings
When they come... Some do, others don't.
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Old 21.04.2011, 16:15
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Re: Non-native German kids became majority in Zurich

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When they come... Some do, others don't.
That's what I ment with "values". I can dig it up again: There was a research showing that there was a much bigger difference than between German and non-German speakers between various groups of immigrants.

Non-German speaking Vietnamese in Eastern Germany, who culturally value education greatly, actually outperformed German students while middle Eastern and Turkish children, with on average low educated parents who had not much interest in the education of their children, lacked behind the most.

So in short does it more matter how much your parents care about your education than the language you speak... not that much of a surprise, is it?
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Old 21.04.2011, 17:02
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Re: Non-native German kids became majority in Zurich

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So in short does it more matter how much your parents care about your education than the language you speak... not that much of a surprise, is it?
Totally right, especially up to Mittelstufe, where pure intelligence frankly is not an issue... most children in the world an intelligent enough for middle school. But one can not isolate intelligence from language skills (the way one's intelligence is made accessible to others) and from social values (the scale of how important what is at what age for whom). Three things totally verschmolzen (melted together?). To find out what exactly explain differences between given population groups (Bevölkerungsgruppen) is not an easy task: a teenager's mind is not analysable because it is not made out of splittable parts (entzieht sich der Analyse, besteht aus unzerlegbaren Bestandteilen). One has to apprehend it as a whole, and get an holistic image of the components of the problem for each single teenager in question.
In other words: one part of this trio can more than compensate for another part and the end result is not predictable based on only one of them. That's why it is possible to have good students with totally foreign language speaker parents and also possible to see student born in the country and still performing under average as a social group dispite having received the same education as the local monolingual students, incl. language. It looks like a contradiction, but it is not really.
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Old 21.04.2011, 18:42
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Re: Non-native German kids became majority in Zurich

I read an interesting article once that pointed out that when some of the children of 'foreign' mother tongue started kindergarten, it wasn't the lack of Swiss German which was the problem but the children hadn't the vocabulary in their own mother tongue either. Maybe they knew a load of 'irrelevant' words, but when it came to learning the language here, they had to learn what the word 'meant', before they actually learned the word in Swiss German. They didn't know what scissors were, or what they were used for. And if the same children have no books at home, no newspapers, hear no conversations with the sort of subject matter they need at school, the problem will not go away as they get older.
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Old 21.04.2011, 19:06
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Re: Non-native German kids became majority in Zurich

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Here is my dilemma:
I am marking German essays, student with balkanic name wrote five pages. Normal length, quite a few interesting parts, some weaker ones. But even if the student is able to explain his thoughts, student is clearly not German mother tongue speaker....
Now let's say this student gets one point less compared to German mother tongue speakers... tranfered over to the whole school population, we end up with a lower average for students with foreign language background. Is that fair? Well, that's exactly my dilemma...
If the subject is Biology, then there should be no difference. If it's a humanity, like History, then the language quality does have a bearing - maybe half to one mark. If it's German, then all bets are off.

That's my view anyway.

In my note above, I wasn't suggesting the language skills has no bearing, but simply that some of the BL teachers we've encountered seemed to give it far more weight than it warrants. Hence the word "obsession".
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Old 21.04.2011, 19:14
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Re: Non-native German kids became majority in Zurich

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In my note above, I wasn't suggesting the language skills has no bearing, but simply that some of the BL teachers we've encountered seemed to give it far more weight than it warrants. Hence the word "obsession".
One of our children (back at primary school having had a two year stay in England in the middle) missed the teaching of the 'comma' rules in German, and half a mark got taken off for a grammatical mistake. Mind you, being her, she then sat down and went through the rule book by herself until she got the hang of it all. Me, I still write German and then take a sprinkling of commas in my salt comma cellar and spread them around over the text till it looks about right so I'd never make it to Gymnasium.
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Old 21.04.2011, 21:47
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Re: Non-native German kids became majority in Zurich

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In my note above, I wasn't suggesting the language skills has no bearing, but simply that some of the BL teachers we've encountered seemed to give it far more weight than it warrants. Hence the word "obsession".
No problem, I understood it that way too.
Language is not a problem just for the beauty of language. The main issue is cognitive developpment and intellectual potential. The ratio from A by B is a hard nut. In order to think, one needs to articulate thoughts. Articulated thoughts become then the bricks one builds up reasoning with. That's a simple syllolism:
If language equals articulated thoughts
and articulated thoughts equal built up reasoning,
then language equals reasoning.
In other words, people (not only students but people in general) will not be able to build up reasoning if they do not have the language skills for it. It does not mean that the students with reduced language skills are not smart, but it does mean that their potential does not developp to full achievement if they do not have the language skills to articulate their reasoning. Not only to communicate their reasoning and get a grade but also to come to a reasoning in their own head in the first place. The concept one is able to think with and combine with each other are the concepts that we can define and express in such a way that meaning is linked to a sign expressing this meaning (basic Saussure reasonning here). If Germans or Brits do not understand the concept of bonne foi, it's not because they are too stupid to understand it, but because this concept explained in German or English is transformed into a new related concept that can be expressed by the said languages. And no, it's not Ehrlichkeit nor Gutgläubigkeit, in the sense that these too German words are only two partial meaning of the concept expressed in French by the words bonne foi. That means that one needs to internalize (verinnerlichen) the concept as a whole in order to get grasp of it. Germans only get parts of it, many parts, and put them together, without having the greater picture like any average French speaker. It's exactly what's happening with partially bilingual students, the ones not articulated enough in their so called mother tongue (home language) in order to have a higher level of cognition that they can count on in the other language used in their education. I even have an English speaking student, his parents are scientists (perhaps you son...) and he just don't get it in literature because he has no idea of what we are talking about in English either (poetry, text interpretation, style and analysis) and his German is not strong enough to him even if he appears to be bilingual outside class so that he does not instictively build up meaning and sense directly in German either. German is simple not a mother tongue to him, he is just an excellent foreign language speaker and he will still get his matura, but he would do better if education language was his real mother tongue or if he simply had this academic level in his mother tongue as well. I keep that secret, I would never ever tell parents that, but that is what I have in class every day. And I can see, I can compare, I can feel the difference between his reasonning built up in a language foreign to him and mother tongue German speakers who can deal better with thinking gymnastic and conceptual playing in German. For a reason unknown to me, it's even clearer in French, French conceptual word playing seems more difficult than in German. Well, you know about my dilemma, no need to repeat myself.
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Old 21.04.2011, 23:19
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Re: Non-native German kids became majority in Zurich

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one can not isolate intelligence from language skills (the way one's intelligence is made accessible to others)
Actually, one can. Language has always been my weak spot (despite being fully literate in English and French, functionally literate in Italian and German, and marginally literate in several others (i.e. I can read menus, etc.). But I do engineering, someone else does the documentation, and I am home-free. (plus, it's better all around if my intelligence ISN'T accessible to others!)

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