Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Family matters/health  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 22.05.2011, 01:19
coconut's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Zurichberg
Posts: 738
Groaned at 12 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 1,000 Times in 405 Posts
coconut has a reputation beyond reputecoconut has a reputation beyond reputecoconut has a reputation beyond reputecoconut has a reputation beyond reputecoconut has a reputation beyond reputecoconut has a reputation beyond repute
Living with ALS (Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis)

Im trying to find a support group for this decease, my husband has it, its been diagnosed for almos 5 years now and specially this year is getting faster in him.
Im really scared, I saw today this comercial and havent stop crying, I need help because i have too much responsabilities with our family and i cant afford to get weak.
Please if you know an organization for people with this decease and they speak english will be really helpful for me righ now.
Martin is already in the stage where i have to do all for him and this comercial describes very well what awaits us.

http://youtu.be/g0Q4kIx95aU

Thanks in advance.
Sarahi
__________________
Best Zürich salon for Nails, Feet & Shellac, LUXIO, OPI click HERE
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank coconut for this useful post:
  #2  
Old 22.05.2011, 09:36
swisspea's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Around Lake Zurich
Posts: 6,406
Groaned at 42 Times in 31 Posts
Thanked 6,562 Times in 3,001 Posts
swisspea has a reputation beyond reputeswisspea has a reputation beyond reputeswisspea has a reputation beyond reputeswisspea has a reputation beyond reputeswisspea has a reputation beyond reputeswisspea has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Living with ALS (Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis)

http://www.alsmndalliance.org/direct...itzerland.html

I am sure you will find plenty of people within the support network, and also medical staff who speak English...

I recommend sending them an email explaining your situation, and asking for someone who can contact you to inform you better of what is available.

My only 'advice' is to try to get as much support as you can now, most people in this situation don't ask for support until the final stages, but you are probably entitled to a lot more help/support than you expect...
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank swisspea for this useful post:
  #3  
Old 22.05.2011, 09:45
Bertrand - Geneva
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Living with ALS (Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis)

you can also try to see if there's something on facebook, even create your own group.

Good luck, my thoughts are with you (not sure how you say that in English)
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank for this useful post:
  #4  
Old 22.05.2011, 09:55
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: SZ
Posts: 54
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 27 Times in 15 Posts
Scottydog has no particular reputation at present
Re: Living with ALS (Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis)

Maybe there are also some people on the Forum here who would be able to give you some help with the children if they live nearby you......

It certainly seems a friendly (usually!) online community, and it would be wonderful if people could become also a real community for you.
Just something to throw out to Zurich based people, if that would help at all.....

Meantime I really hope you can get the support also from the advice group, can you also ask the medical professionals who are currently involved with your husband if you can get some more help at home? As Sweetpea says, don't leave it too long to ask for that help.

Sending you a virtual hug
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Scottydog for this useful post:
  #5  
Old 22.05.2011, 11:19
coconut's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Zurichberg
Posts: 738
Groaned at 12 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 1,000 Times in 405 Posts
coconut has a reputation beyond reputecoconut has a reputation beyond reputecoconut has a reputation beyond reputecoconut has a reputation beyond reputecoconut has a reputation beyond reputecoconut has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Living with ALS (Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis)

Thanks to all for your kind replays.
The think is that i need to do this alone, he is still in the denial stage, he still say to people it was an accident what caused his hands to stop doing, he doesnt like to go to his doctor because only tells him how bad is getting. In some way this has been good because he try as hard as he can to continue fighting, maybe if he accepted the decease already he will just give up. Being that long with als, he still can do a lot of things most pacients cant. He is a very strong man and i admire and love him deeply but is just getting to be too much for me alone, he doesnt want to go to any als group and i feel mega shy to go alone, thats why i was wondering if someone here goes or knows someone who knows about this, i would like first a private talk and not to go direct to the group. Also is difficult having 2 babys if i go to the group and they start crying i cant focus or pay atention to anything with them.
Thanks again.
Sarahi
__________________
Best Zürich salon for Nails, Feet & Shellac, LUXIO, OPI click HERE
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 22.05.2011, 11:32
swisspea's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Around Lake Zurich
Posts: 6,406
Groaned at 42 Times in 31 Posts
Thanked 6,562 Times in 3,001 Posts
swisspea has a reputation beyond reputeswisspea has a reputation beyond reputeswisspea has a reputation beyond reputeswisspea has a reputation beyond reputeswisspea has a reputation beyond reputeswisspea has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Living with ALS (Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis)

The key message is 'you are not alone'!

I am sure that you can make contact with the group, and find out what they have on offer, and find out the support that you can get for yourself.

As a mother of small children, even without family stress like illness, it takes a lot of work to build yourself a support network. Tapping into the support networks is harder when you don't speak the local language and don't have big family and friend networks - it's very isolating.

Do you have a doctor for yourself that you can confide in ? Do you see a Paediatrician or child health nurse ? They can help you - maybe to find a counsellor that you can talk to about these things, who knows the system. Maybe you qualify for some subsidised babysitting or childcare, so that you can get a break for yourself to do the things you need to do to keep the household running ? Maybe the medical costs can be reduced ?

There is a form of grieving associated with chronic medical conditions. Whether your husband is a fighter or not, he has his own battle, for you it can be in someways harder - you are there to support him, and you also have to think of the 'what if's' and the 'ever after' and still keep everything going in the household.

Please do make contact with the support group. They really can help you to reassure you that you are not alone, and to recognise that what you are going through is a common experience, and that there are some things that can be done to make it easier.

We had a close friend go through Motor Neurone Disease via her close friend. She ended up supporting him as closely as you would if he was her husband, and it was a very devastating experience for her and for those around her - but it was something that she had to do, and she got through it, and built a support network and life moves on...

There are lots of support groups online, and I think you should try to separate a bit what 'you' need and what 'he' needs. Would it be possible to say to him 'I know you think that you don't want to do xyz, but I do, so I am asking you to support me to find the services and networks that I need to get through this.'...

Being in denial is 'natural' in one sense, it's a common response, and we all hope for a miracle, but that's his choice, not yours. Just because he doesn't want to talk about it, doesn't mean that you have to bottle it up inside as well.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank swisspea for this useful post:
  #7  
Old 22.05.2011, 15:32
ximix's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: UK (formerly Zurich)
Posts: 2,098
Groaned at 22 Times in 21 Posts
Thanked 2,315 Times in 1,179 Posts
ximix has a reputation beyond reputeximix has a reputation beyond reputeximix has a reputation beyond reputeximix has a reputation beyond reputeximix has a reputation beyond reputeximix has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Living with ALS (Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis)

Dear Sarahi

I'm very sorry to learn of your husband's illness and wish you and your family all the very best during this extremely difficult time.

I cannot add anything else to the wonderful advice you've been given already on this thread but would like to reiterate @Swisspea's comment that you are not alone.

You are key to setting things in motion that will surely bring tremendous relief and benefit you all not only emotionally but also in so many other ways as well by getting in contact with the support network as suggested, so please, please, please do this as soon as possible.

The first step in seeking help is often the hardest but in sharing your experience here you've already made a move in the right direction and the next is to contact the support network.

My thoughts are with you and please do let us know how you get on.

BIG *hugs*
isha
__________________
" The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible. " ~ Arthur C Clarke
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank ximix for this useful post:
  #8  
Old 22.05.2011, 16:55
Sky's Avatar
Sky Sky is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Somewhere special far away
Posts: 4,322
Groaned at 69 Times in 51 Posts
Thanked 7,190 Times in 2,662 Posts
Sky has a reputation beyond reputeSky has a reputation beyond reputeSky has a reputation beyond reputeSky has a reputation beyond reputeSky has a reputation beyond reputeSky has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Living with ALS (Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis)

When you are caring for a very close disabled loved one you do feel alone in those precise moments when you least expect it.

How about getting really practical in seeing what we can do to help Sarahi ?

1) Appropriate trustworthy babysitting in the Zurich region, not from strangers on the internet but from a well-known association like the Red Cross.. Here in Romandie the Red Cross offers babysitting services for 15 SFr an hour. Does anybody know if that exists in Zurich ?

2) In regards to the help, perhaps some of us know an English speaking Neurologist who knows of a help association

3) I would suggest starting with the support groups from the States and Canada. I did when I needed assistance (other serious health issue for a close loved one) and it really did help. People who I never met, going through the same issues in another part of the world understood the ups and the downs and came together to help each other through. The caring support made it better.

Networking......

Sarahi, there are ways that can be found. You've really done the right thing to reach out.
I'm so sorry to read your pain.
__________________
.
"Il mondo è fatto a scale, chi le scende e chi le sale"
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Sky for this useful post:
  #9  
Old 22.05.2011, 17:05
KeinFranzösisch's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 2,198
Groaned at 63 Times in 38 Posts
Thanked 2,549 Times in 1,115 Posts
KeinFranzösisch has a reputation beyond reputeKeinFranzösisch has a reputation beyond reputeKeinFranzösisch has a reputation beyond reputeKeinFranzösisch has a reputation beyond reputeKeinFranzösisch has a reputation beyond reputeKeinFranzösisch has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Living with ALS (Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis)

John Blais was an ALS sufferer who was an inspiration to many athletes. Though suffering from hardships of pain of ALS, he swam 3.86km, cycled 180.25km, and ran 42.2km to complete the Kona Ironman triathlon back in 2005, and returned in 2006. He proved that the human spirit knows no bounds and, once determined, can do anything.

I know it's not much, but I hope that John Blais can be as much an inspiration for you and your family as he was for me.

If you aren't already familiar with him, you can Google "ALS Warrior Poet", "John Blais" and "Blazeman".
__________________
I would sooner have you hate me for telling you the truth than adore me for telling you lies. - Pietro Aretino
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank KeinFranzösisch for this useful post:
  #10  
Old 22.05.2011, 17:55
Sky's Avatar
Sky Sky is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Somewhere special far away
Posts: 4,322
Groaned at 69 Times in 51 Posts
Thanked 7,190 Times in 2,662 Posts
Sky has a reputation beyond reputeSky has a reputation beyond reputeSky has a reputation beyond reputeSky has a reputation beyond reputeSky has a reputation beyond reputeSky has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Living with ALS (Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis)

http://www.alsa.org/
ALS Association (USA)
http://www.alsa.org/community/services.html?service_type=support-groups
Looks like there’s a Spanish speaking support group with a phone number in the States.

http://www.alsforums.com/
ALS online support group

Check out Orpha.net
It’s the web site for rare diseases.
There are support groups for ALS in Europe of which 4 in Spain.
http://www.orpha.net/consor/cgi-bin/SupportGroup_Search.php?lng=EN&type_list=SupportGr oups_Search_Simple&data_id=106&Maladie(s)/groupes%20de%20maladies=Sclerose-laterale-amyotrophique&search=SupportGroup_Search_Simple&Ch dId=106&SupportGroup_SupportGroup_Search_diseaseGr oup=Sclerose-laterale-amyotrophique&SupportGroup_SupportGroup_Search_dis easeType=Pat&SupportGroup_SupportGroup_Search_coun try=NN

Here are the support groups in Switzerland (for various rare diseases)

http://www.orpha.net/consor/cgi-bin/SupportGroup_Search_List.php?lng=EN&type_list=Supp ortGroups_by_country&lng=EN&search=SupportGroup_Se arch_List&data_id=0&TAG=CH

Perhaps this one might be the right one:
SGMK - Schweizerische Gesellschaft für Muskelkranke SGMK
Looks like there are various support groups (check out the links and forum)
http://www.muskelkrank.ch/

A small step in the beginning will lead to the right place.
With every step may come an answer, a reason, a hope.

.
__________________
.
"Il mondo è fatto a scale, chi le scende e chi le sale"

Last edited by Sky; 22.05.2011 at 18:06. Reason: my fonts went nuts :o)
Reply With Quote
The following 10 users would like to thank Sky for this useful post:
  #11  
Old 23.05.2011, 03:35
coconut's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Zurichberg
Posts: 738
Groaned at 12 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 1,000 Times in 405 Posts
coconut has a reputation beyond reputecoconut has a reputation beyond reputecoconut has a reputation beyond reputecoconut has a reputation beyond reputecoconut has a reputation beyond reputecoconut has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Living with ALS (Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis)

Sky, isha, KeinFranzösisch, Swisspea

Thank you so much for your message its really helpfull both emocional and practical.

  • We have the neurodoc, but without the pacient what am i going to do with the doc? he doesnt like to go and hear he's getting worst.
  • I have a tagmutter payed by the state so i can take german lessons, but i dont get it for going to the meetings. ..But I will try to check with the group, im almost sure it will be someone else with little kids attending and i wont feel like im disturbing the peace of the meeting if babys cry. otherwise someone was so kind and offer check after the babys for the time of the reunion and happen to live also where the group is, so this is almost figured out
  • He refuses to talk or meet more people with the decease, so if i go will be on my own, and at this point is ok for me
  • We dont have a lot of money however we have managed to survive good, hopefully soon i could start working making nails so i can still be at home in case im needed.
  • The help im looking in the group is not about insurance or kids, or to know about the decease, its more just to meet people who knows without asking what is like to live with a person with als. giving him a bath, dressing him, feeding him, holding the drink, all what i have to do phisically for him is piece of cake. Im dealing more with the psicologic thing. the fear of having make a mistake, once someone told me that i was so imature for having kids knowing my husband will die before they even turn 5 years and that my kids will be angry at me for that, in that moment i answered to this woman that we never know when exactly when we will die and i could have marry a perfectly healthy man, have kids and then loose my husband in a plane crash. i still believe in my answer but her statement has been chasing me ever since.Like i said phisically i will get tired but a good sleep can help me, psicologically i cant sleep...
Tomorrow i will call this group, check the meetings and take it from there.
Thanks again for the cheering, empaty, advise, taking the time to find webpages for me, etc, i really see in ef lots of great people.

God bless you,
Sarahi
__________________
Best Zürich salon for Nails, Feet & Shellac, LUXIO, OPI click HERE
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank coconut for this useful post:
  #12  
Old 23.05.2011, 18:34
Sky's Avatar
Sky Sky is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Somewhere special far away
Posts: 4,322
Groaned at 69 Times in 51 Posts
Thanked 7,190 Times in 2,662 Posts
Sky has a reputation beyond reputeSky has a reputation beyond reputeSky has a reputation beyond reputeSky has a reputation beyond reputeSky has a reputation beyond reputeSky has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Living with ALS (Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis)

Make a little bubble around you and let the rest of the world turn as it will.

People are people are people.
People will make comments always, try not to listen to them as they are ignorant and do not understand and can not understand.
Leave them where they are and try not to paint yourself with their opinions or their colors.

You made your husband's life very precious as you gave him beautiful children who will continue and will take him with them in their hearts where ever they will go. They are his loving message to a hopeful future.

Now.... when I needed help for the major health issue to be faced, I found that the On-Line support group was the best for me. It allowed me to keep a distance and yet stay in touch, and it allowed me to share with others all over the world.

I found angels on my path, and you will find them too.

You don't have to meet people and your husband won't have to participate. There are many many caregivers of the ill patients on these forums, not just the patients themselves.


http://www.alsforums.com/
ALS online support group

--------------------

On a second note..... call the Invalid Insurance (your husband probably has that right now) and ask them if they offer services like child-care for the sick patients. I know they offer to cover transportations costs, so maybe there is something there. Not just childcare, but also help at home for assisting a handicapped person.

Hugs,
__________________
.
"Il mondo è fatto a scale, chi le scende e chi le sale"
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank Sky for this useful post:
  #13  
Old 23.05.2011, 19:45
coconut's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Zurichberg
Posts: 738
Groaned at 12 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 1,000 Times in 405 Posts
coconut has a reputation beyond reputecoconut has a reputation beyond reputecoconut has a reputation beyond reputecoconut has a reputation beyond reputecoconut has a reputation beyond reputecoconut has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Living with ALS (Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis)

Quote:
View Post

--------------------

On a second note..... call the Invalid Insurance (your husband probably has that right now) and ask them if they offer services like child-care for the sick patients. I know they offer to cover transportations costs, so maybe there is something there. Not just childcare, but also help at home for assisting a handicapped person.

Hugs,
I dont want to make my husband sound like a bad man because he isnt, but even do he is entitled to get spitex so i can be relief from feeding, shower, dressing him he doesnt want. our salary is poor enough and we are managing to pay someone who cleans our apmt 2 hours 2 days pes week so the house doesnt fall over us as im already all booked for him and the kids. There is help but he must accept it and he doesnt want, kind of swiss pride.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 23.05.2011, 22:49
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: USA, former Zurich
Posts: 2,041
Groaned at 14 Times in 14 Posts
Thanked 4,811 Times in 1,660 Posts
BokerTov has a reputation beyond reputeBokerTov has a reputation beyond reputeBokerTov has a reputation beyond reputeBokerTov has a reputation beyond reputeBokerTov has a reputation beyond reputeBokerTov has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Living with ALS (Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis)

Coco,

I am really sorry to hear about this. I unfortunately cannot offer you any advice on support groups with regards to this specific condition, and I was quite ignorant about this disease myself until I googled it a few seconds ago.

Your plate seems quite full, between your husband, your children, learning German, finding a job, and dealing with life, and I am sure you are not left with much time for anything else. I can imagine that some days you must be so exhausted to even blink...Sooner or later, we all find ourselves in the situation where we feel we just can't take it anymore, and that got me thinking...

I hope other posters will be able to give you more useful advice than whatever I am writing here and the help you need on the topic you are inquiring about, but since we all try to solve problems with the tools we have at hand...

I see that you live in Zurich. I know you mentioned in another post somewhere else that it's hard for you to go out, as you need to be with your husband 24/7, and my work schedule is a bit "wild" during the day to use an euphemism, so I imagine it would be hard for you to accept a dinner invitation for a homemade meal, but would you do me the pleasure of accepting a "care package"?

Homemade pesto, gnocchi, pasta sauces, chocolate truffles, focaccia bread, peperonata, you name it, I make it for you and bring it to you, if you prefer even over a quick coffee at a cafe that is conveniently located for you. Some solid homemade Italian food that hopefully will make you smile.

This is just a drop in the sea compared to all that you are going through, but if you feel this could be helpful to you, however small it is, feel free to PM me. Stay strong!
Reply With Quote
The following 10 users would like to thank BokerTov for this useful post:
  #15  
Old 23.05.2011, 23:29
coconut's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Zurichberg
Posts: 738
Groaned at 12 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 1,000 Times in 405 Posts
coconut has a reputation beyond reputecoconut has a reputation beyond reputecoconut has a reputation beyond reputecoconut has a reputation beyond reputecoconut has a reputation beyond reputecoconut has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Living with ALS (Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis)

Quote:
View Post
Coco,

I am really sorry to hear about this. I unfortunately cannot offer you any advice on support groups with regards to this specific condition, and I was quite ignorant about this disease myself until I googled it a few seconds ago.

Your plate seems quite full, between your husband, your children, learning German, finding a job, and dealing with life, and I am sure you are not left with much time for anything else. I can imagine that some days you must be so exhausted to even blink...Sooner or later, we all find ourselves in the situation where we feel we just can't take it anymore, and that got me thinking...

I hope other posters will be able to give you more useful advice than whatever I am writing here and the help you need on the topic you are inquiring about, but since we all try to solve problems with the tools we have at hand...

I see that you live in Zurich. I know you mentioned in another post somewhere else that it's hard for you to go out, as you need to be with your husband 24/7, and my work schedule is a bit "wild" during the day to use an euphemism, so I imagine it would be hard for you to accept a dinner invitation for a homemade meal, but would you do me the pleasure of accepting a "care package"?

Homemade pesto, gnocchi, pasta sauces, chocolate truffles, focaccia bread, peperonata, you name it, I make it for you and bring it to you, if you prefer even over a quick coffee at a cafe that is conveniently located for you. Some solid homemade Italian food that hopefully will make you smile.

This is just a drop in the sea compared to all that you are going through, but if you feel this could be helpful to you, however small it is, feel free to PM me. Stay strong!
Oh dear God, Federica thank you so much. In this forum i have found so many wonderful people that i dont know yet in person and really feel less alone with their posts. For the offer i get you are italian or love italian food? I do feel really shy to accept the care package but coffee sounds great.... i'll send you a pm
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank coconut for this useful post:
  #16  
Old 24.05.2011, 09:40
Swissoconnors's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Nidwalden
Posts: 185
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 147 Times in 72 Posts
Swissoconnors has an excellent reputationSwissoconnors has an excellent reputationSwissoconnors has an excellent reputationSwissoconnors has an excellent reputation
Re: Living with ALS (Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis)

I'm so sorry to hear this, Sarahi. I know someone in the States who husband suffered with ALS, didn't realise that was what you were going through. Unfortunately can't do anything very useful from here. I really hope you can find a support group.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Swissoconnors for this useful post:
  #17  
Old 24.05.2011, 09:53
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: USA, former Zurich
Posts: 2,041
Groaned at 14 Times in 14 Posts
Thanked 4,811 Times in 1,660 Posts
BokerTov has a reputation beyond reputeBokerTov has a reputation beyond reputeBokerTov has a reputation beyond reputeBokerTov has a reputation beyond reputeBokerTov has a reputation beyond reputeBokerTov has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Living with ALS (Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis)

Quote:
View Post
For the offer i get you are italian or love italian food?
Yes and yes

Sent you a PM as well.

Have a good day!
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank BokerTov for this useful post:
Reply

Tags
als




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Interesting new approach to treating multiple sclerosis (MS) Verbier Family matters/health 81 24.04.2022 19:08
Living in Nyon versus Living in Lausanne karin_z Housing in general 7 31.01.2010 01:16
Living in CH or in FR Floris Housing in general 14 10.10.2008 08:02


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 06:54.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0