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Old 26.05.2011, 16:36
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Re: Is this normal? (creche & medicine)

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I agree with you on this, our child never let us anywhere near her buttock, in terms of thermometers, suppositories, etc. For some babes and tots, it can be extremely unpleasant, painful even. She never had any trouble to take and swallow precisely measured dose of syrup, either. I am not sure why creches prefer butt treatment, might be something stuck in here from the past, not really taking account of the fact most babies find it unpleasant, as far as I know. I also import my syrups, since they taste a lot more palatable, be it paracetamol, ibuprofen or baby antibiotics. What we got here burnt in the mouth, don't know why. But it gets a lot easier when they are bigger, my child comes to me ever evening and asks for kids multivitamin (chewable pills), for B complex to swallow, for probiotic chewy pills, she likes her routine.
How do you know most babies find it unpleasant? Obviously if you are rough with it, it will be unpleasant and perhaps painful. But the same goes if you jab the spoon containing the medicine into the baby's mouth.

Our doctor recommended it and it works for us and other families we know, and I don't think it is particularly helpful when you make unsubstantiated, uninformed and unbalanced statements like that because perhaps you don't agree with a particular method.
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Old 26.05.2011, 16:41
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Re: Is this normal? (creche & medicine)

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There was a big report recently (and I think someone posted it on this forum) about parents being pretty clueless with dosing medication. Babies and toddlers can also dribble, spit out and sick up medicine then you don't know how much they've had (or not had).

My son's doctor explained that suppositories are always the correct dose, won't get sicked up or dribbled down the chin plus they are absorbed into the system a lot quicker than through the stomach. That kind of sold it for me.

I give my son syrup now because he's older and understands he has to stand still and take the medicine carefully. I wouldn't have liked to have tried it when he was a baby.
That's all fair enough and logically I do see the benefits, but still...

When necessary, we gave our daughter syrup right from the start using a syringe with the ml measured on it - she'd just suck the stuff out in her own time.
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Old 26.05.2011, 16:49
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Re: Is this normal? (creche & medicine)

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How do you know most babies find it unpleasant? Obviously if you are rough with it, it will be unpleasant and perhaps painful. But the same goes if you jab the spoon containing the medicine into the baby's mouth.

Our doctor recommended it and I don't think it is particularly helpful when you make unsubstantiated, uninformed and unbalanced statements like that because perhaps you don't agree with a particular method.

Let me rephrase, my child hated it, I did, my brothers, my doctor cousins, my doctor parents stayed away from it too, used it once or twice. My doctor aunts and uncles, too, mind you. It's just not really done, to aggravate a one and a half year old, I would prefer a syrup, too. And who uses a spoon for a baby? Don't people have baby meds dispensers? Everyone I know does, these days.



We had this one, really handy



We attempted with the suppository once (when our child caught cold sore virus from a friend who kissed her, and had lesions all over her mouth and couldn't eat). We couldn't get half a dose of suppository into her, since they were improperly dosed, too, the weight didn't correspond. Try cutting a suppository, what a mess and insert it, it's too sharp and when you heat it a tad for the wax to smooth and coat the edges, it melts away.

I find syrups also a lot more practical, didn't make my baby cry, at least. And I was there when I administered it. So, hence my little notion to keep for myself, based on my experiences and people who are close and have babies.

We all have preferences, OP obviously shares my experiences with suppositories, it's just not done back home anymore, I think only up to 6mo, or so. I think creche should respect moms' wishes.
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Old 26.05.2011, 17:23
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Re: Is this normal? (creche & medicine)

Well, my son never had a problem with suppositories - I used them until he was 3 or so. Neither did any of our friends' kids. It's totally standard here and all pediatricians here prescribe them.
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Old 26.05.2011, 17:27
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Re: Is this normal? (creche & medicine)

Of course the Krippe should respect the parents wishes. However, how are they supposed to even realize they have to ask when giving Paracetamol supp's isn't an issue for the absolute majority of Swiss parents?

So, to wrap it up: if you have concerns about a Krippe using supp's or administering medicine to your little ones, be pro-active and inform the Krippe of your standpoint. That way you don't risk any unpleasant surpises.

In Switzerland, the Krippes are still a Nanny-institution for children and not for the parents ;-)


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I think creche should respect moms' wishes.

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Old 26.05.2011, 18:30
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Re: Is this normal? (creche & medicine)

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Of course the Krippe should respect the parents wishes. However, how are they supposed to even realize they have to ask when giving Paracetamol supp's isn't an issue for the absolute majority of Swiss parents?
True that. I totally agree, it's about informing them and having relevant paperwork done, I am sure they have the proper forms for it.
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Old 26.05.2011, 21:55
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Re: Is this normal? (creche & medicine)

Ok, maybe I should have just said gave him paracetamol rather than turn this into a supp vs syrup debate.

The real issue here for me is that they gave him medication without my permission and against my specific instructions (which were not to give him any medication but to call me or husband first and then I/he would decide). There is no way i would leave my munchkin at creche for an afternoon with a 40 degree fever. If they had called me, I would have said give it to him, I'm on the next train home. But they didn't. And they didn't even try to.

I just wanted to find out if it was generally accepted in CH that the creche can decide on the spot with no reference to the parents what medical treatment a child receives.

(and judging from the horrified looks of the people I had coffee with this morning, this is not generally accepted professional behaviour in Switzerland). I have a meeting tomorrow morning, now to remain calm and polite...
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Old 27.05.2011, 11:03
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Re: Is this normal? (creche & medicine)

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, my son's doctor told me they were pretty convenient because the dose is always constant plus they can't barf them back up again (unless they've got a runny bum, then you obviously don't use them).
.
During training as nurse many moons ago, we had to spend 6 months on achildren's ward and suppositories would have been a blessing back then. Trying to get medicine or syrup down the throat of a non co-operative, tantrum throwing 2 year old is more trouble than it's worth because half the dosage is spit out or ends up down the child's pyjamas or on the nurse's apron.
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Old 27.05.2011, 11:17
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Re: Is this normal? (creche & medicine)

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I agree with you on this, our child never let us anywhere near her buttock, in terms of thermometers, suppositories, etc. For some babes and tots, it can be extremely unpleasant, painful even. She never had any trouble to take and swallow precisely measured dose of syrup, either. I am not sure why creches prefer butt treatment, might be something stuck in here from the past, not really taking account of the fact most babies find it unpleasant, as far as I know. I also import my syrups, since they taste a lot more palatable, be it paracetamol, ibuprofen or baby antibiotics. What we got here burnt in the mouth, don't know why. But it gets a lot easier when they are bigger, my child comes to me eveyr evening and asks for kids multivitamin (chewable pills), for B complex to swallow, for probiotic chewy pills, she likes her routine.
You worry about suppositories but then you dose your kids up with a load of unproven junk which they really shouldn't need if they have a balanced diet.

Your kids - do as you please regarding the pill popping but don't spread scare-stories about a sensible and pretty easy way of giving your young child a controlled dose of medicine.
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Old 27.05.2011, 11:43
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Re: Is this normal? (creche & medicine)

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We couldn't get half a dose of suppository into her, since they were improperly dosed, too, the weight didn't correspond. Try cutting a suppository, what a mess and insert it, it's too sharp and when you heat it a tad for the wax to smooth and coat the edges, it melts away.
Wow I'm not surprised she didn't like it, you are not supposed to mess with them like that! Just buy the one for the appropriate age/weight of your baby. I've never heard of those med dispensers, can't believe I missed out on another piece of baby equipment to acquire!
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Old 27.05.2011, 16:02
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Re: Is this normal? (creche & medicine)

I would state your objections politely, they were trying to do the right thing by your child, only the process was wrong . They deal with more kids than most of us so would have a reasonable idea about what is ok and normally cresches don't or won't adninister any medication at all - if the child needs it they should go home. The last thing you need is constant phone calls to come and collect your child with every little fever or sniffle.
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Old 27.05.2011, 16:13
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Re: Is this normal? (creche & medicine)

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Ok, maybe I should have just said gave him paracetamol rather than turn this into a supp vs syrup debate.

The real issue here for me is that they gave him medication without my permission and against my specific instructions (which were not to give him any medication but to call me or husband first and then I/he would decide). There is no way i would leave my munchkin at creche for an afternoon with a 40 degree fever. If they had called me, I would have said give it to him, I'm on the next train home. But they didn't. And they didn't even try to.

I just wanted to find out if it was generally accepted in CH that the creche can decide on the spot with no reference to the parents what medical treatment a child receives.

(and judging from the horrified looks of the people I had coffee with this morning, this is not generally accepted professional behaviour in Switzerland). I have a meeting tomorrow morning, now to remain calm and polite...
Wel, I agree with you.

Your child is your ultimate responsibility, and no-one else has the right to give them medication without first consulting you.

I do not give even a head-ache tablet to any of my grandkids friends if they are visiting and complain of a headache. For any ailments they may have they have to go receive it from their own parents. The ONLY thing I would do is to stop bleeding if they`ve had an accident, and then get them to their own home, or doctor if necessary.

Yes, remain calm, and insist on control of what is put into your child.
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Old 27.05.2011, 16:44
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Re: Is this normal? (creche & medicine)

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Now, I think this is totally unacceptable. I expect them to look after my child. I do not expect them to give him medication without even asking me and I expect details and I expect to be told immediately if they think he is ill. My husband (swiss) was a bit shocked at my reaction. Am I over-reacting? Is this normal here? I know that I never signed anything to say they could give him medicine and I remember being asked when he first started there and I specifically told them that I wasn't happy with the idea of them giving him medicine and they should call me immediately they thought he was ill. I'm planning to call tomorrow and try to get a meeting with the boss to air my views but would like to know where I stand.
So, did you manage to get a meeting with the boss? Because, in my opinion, talking with him/her really is the best solution, followed by an email to confirm whatever you agreed upon. Although it is good that you inform whether your reactions are appropriate as it shows that you can see multiple perspectives, in the end, it does not really matter what is "customary" or whether you are "over-reacting".

What matters most is that you get together, discuss both viewpoints, get your expectations clear, and make some agreements how to deal with similar situations in the future. This can all be done in a non-insulting, non-blaming way, as long as both participants are willing to listen to each other. So, do not just "vent" your opinion, but actively listen to any motivations/arguments the boss gives you. You don't have to agree with them, but understanding why they do certain things will help you making your own wishes clearly understood. And, in my view, it won't hurt to tell the boss what you are used to, and why you want to be informed. Then agree on different scenarios and solutions that you both feel are acceptable. That way, it does not really matter what local customs are, as long as you can both reach an agreement.

Oh, and I think it is perfectly reasonable to be called/informed whenever your kid has high fever and/or needs medication. However, just make sure that the creche staff is aware of your expectation. I also think it is reasonable to agree that you don't have to be called for every minor bruise. And somewhere in between there is the grey area that may need a bit more discussion. Me coming from the Netherlands, I would not mind creche staff to give my youngest (16 months) a supp without them informing me that very moment. Informing me after the fact would be sufficient for me, but that is just me.

It would be great to have your husband attend the meeting. Not only to support you, but also to catch any linguistic errors that may arise. Not every Swiss is fluent in English....

At the end of the meeting, summarize what you discussed, ask the boss if you both understood everything correctly, and get the email address to confirm by email what you discussed and what agreements have been made.

Hope this helps.
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Old 27.05.2011, 21:10
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Re: Is this normal? (creche & medicine)

Right, we had the meeting this morning and I'm planning to write a letter just confirming what was agreed re the paracetamol. I managed to keep calm and bring my points across in a rather rational manner I took a list with me so she knew it wasn't just the one thing that worried me, but a few.
She said that it wasn't at midday (like we were told) that he had fever, but at 4 and thought that as he'd be picked up at 5 then it was ok to give him something and wait. I pointed out that if she had called, someone could have picked him up within 5 mins as by chance by husband was already home then. I put it across as "this is how it's done in my country, I accept there are differences, but I still expect x,y,z from you"

To cut a long debate short we have agreed that they may give him if he has a fever, but that I expect to be informed immediately. They may not give him anything else for any other reason. And we have agreed that I will keep a book in his bag and they will write a report in of the basic things he has done, how much he's slept (a problem for us!) etc and anything else out of the ordinary.

My husband didn't come, and we had the conversation in German anyway, so neither of us was speaking in our native language! Not sure what to do about that as he goes to creche to learn German, it's actually advertised as a bilingual crèche, and there seem to be no German speakers there any more...she's advertising, but hasn't found one yet since the last one quit. And it was her who was my son's group leader and it seems that she didn't tell the others/put on file any of the details that were discussed when he started (including allergies . Fortunately his were only suspected and turned out not to be but still...)

So we'll see how things go!
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Old 27.05.2011, 22:13
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Re: Is this normal? (creche & medicine)

I think it's imperitive for mums to check out the protocol in any childcare facility. Be polite but absolutely firm as to what your wishes are. Stay as long as you can to see how stressed/attentive the carers are.

I saw something the other day that has haunted me ever since. A day care center were out in the park with the kids. They ranged from about 16 months to three years old. I was out with four of my older kids, we were having a mucky session, which entails getting water from the fountain and generally mixing it with sand, grit and any other natural material to hand.

I counted 11 young kids, one was possibly 14-16 months old and was dumped in the sand and became distressed as he/she had sand in it's mouth and was obviously suffering discomfort. I found out that the day care had recently merged with an other small one. A child of maybe 14-16 months had come from a small day care and wandered over to me with her arms outstretched, I couldn't ignore her and picked her up and gave her a cuddle and sung to her. One of the day care workers came over took her from me and said she'd been spoiled from the small group and needed to become independent! They had put the sandy mouthed child in a pram in the shade, which was a long long way from the sand pit, they put the crying little girl on a bench (no back support) which was at least 40-50 cm off the ground and left her there, crying with her arms out stretched! I can only say I was horrified and I've had trouble sleeping since.

There were 3 carers out with the kids and I only saw them sitting at the edge of the sandpit. No interaction, no vocabulary building and certainly no security given to those kids who really needed it.

I took my mucky's back for pick up and after lunch took my lunch time kids back to the park. I saw one of the young woman who was there earlier, sat on a swing and asked if she was on her break. She was a school girl of 15 who was spending a week in the nursery to find out if that was something for her future career, she looked very sad and didn't really want to communicate. So two woman were responsible for that whole group and I ask myself "how could they have introduced that young girl to a positive aspect of child care", my heart is very heavy.

Maybe I'm an idealist.
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Old 27.05.2011, 22:21
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Re: Is this normal? (creche & medicine)

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Maybe I'm an idealist.
God no, that is absolutely harrowing. Poor kids.
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Old 28.05.2011, 14:00
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Re: Is this normal? (creche & medicine)

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Wow I'm not surprised she didn't like it, you are not supposed to mess with them like that! Just buy the one for the appropriate age/weight of your baby. I've never heard of those med dispensers, can't believe I missed out on another piece of baby equipment to acquire!
That was our CH ped advice. I told her supp's are not done back home anymore for kids older 6mo, since it causes discomfort and we have meds dispensers that work and don't mind taking the time to calm a distressed babe and give it syrup in peace, but our ped said half it, melt the edges, shove it in no matter what.

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You worry about suppositories but then you dose your kids up with a load of unproven junk which they really shouldn't need if they have a balanced diet.

Your kids - do as you please regarding the pill popping but don't spread scare-stories about a sensible and pretty easy way of giving your young child a controlled dose of medicine.
Scare stories? The fact that all babies older than a few months that I know find supp's uncomfortable? Why aggravate them even more, that is not sensible. I don't have a trouble with multivits and probiotics, since I don't shove them into my child's bumm. It's not a big deal, I do have a slight trouble with supp's since it seems it is done out of convenience of the staff while using medical reason (dosage) which is irrelevant if one is patient and has time to calm the baby down. Anywhere else I know they do not do this with babes that are older than really small.

I am glad that now in my kiddo's phase of pickiness and yoghurt allergy, she has her probiotics. Yay. She eats very balanced diet at home, but mind you, you never know exactly what creche is feeding them and what she actually ingests, and she is fulltime. So, pillpopping aversion you might have, I am not closeminded on certain flexible shortterm sollution, which is painfree. I do not think that a few weeks of multitabs/probiotics (unproven junk?!) is going to affect my child in terms of her wanting to pop pills her entire life .

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During training as nurse many moons ago, we had to spend 6 months on achildren's ward and suppositories would have been a blessing back then. Trying to get medicine or syrup down the throat of a non co-operative, tantrum throwing 2 year old is more trouble than it's worth because half the dosage is spit out or ends up down the child's pyjamas or on the nurse's apron.
I can't see a tantrum throwing 2yr old taking a supp very nicely, either. You need two people to hold and shove. Just like you need two to pour into a kiddo's mouth, if the child is not calm and cooperating. It's a powerstruggle isn't it, no matter what. I would rather have a baby calm and take the meds, then force something in her butt. Anytime our kid felt like protesting the syrup, you condition, you wait a few mins. It worked every single time. I bet it would have been a blessing, but not sure how nice it is for the unhappy babes. A hospital ward and creche is a different environment, by the way. Lot more stress, less staff, less time. Creche is not a hospital, so not really sure why they need emergency clinical measures for kids that are able to actually take meds orally.

Oldhand, I have chosen a daycare that is further exactly for this reason. Everysingle time I saw the educatrices walk the wee kiddos in the neighborhood, there was no interraction. Zero. No song with kids, do talk, no showing things, not smiling, seemed like an obligatory task they didn't really enjoy. It seemed they were all either stagiers or apprentices, before 20, and chitchating about their private things, yelling over the kid's chatter. So, we chose another one, where at times there is not much interraction either, you can see the staff being dead tired at the end of the day to actually talk in a reasonably invested manner, but over all, they are great. Respectful of parent's wishes, if somewhat clinical. But professional, patient and warm.

Glad you were there to at least provide some comfort to that little one.
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Old 28.05.2011, 14:13
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Re: Is this normal? (creche & medicine)

"Shove" / "Force something into the butt" - that's where you were going wrong, MC. Care, and gently-does-it was how the doctor showed me. I am surprised that with so many medical professionals in your family you didn't know that .

No wonder your little one objected!
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Old 28.05.2011, 14:55
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Re: Is this normal? (creche & medicine)

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"Shove" / "Force something into the butt" - that's where you were going wrong, MC. Care, and gently-does-it was how the doctor showed me. I am surprised that with so many medical professionals in your family you didn't know that .

No wonder your little one objected!
Shoved was used ironically. Kids dislike suppe's as much as we do. Not nice, unless one is into that kind of stuff

Try cooperatively gently insert a supp' into a baby's butt. I am not sure, but our's wouldn't ever get used to this to cooperate. Much less than to cooperate while swallowing a sweet dose of syrup. That's all. Why be clinical...
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Old 28.05.2011, 15:06
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Re: Is this normal? (creche & medicine)

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Shoved was used ironically. Kids dislike suppe's as much as we do. Not nice, unless one is into that kind of stuff

Try cooperatively gently insert a supp' into a baby's butt. I am not sure, but our's wouldn't ever get used to this to cooperate. Much less than to cooperate while swallowing a sweet dose of syrup. That's all. Why be clinical...
I don't know anyone who actually likes taking medicine in any form (unless they are into that kind of stuff).

What do you do if your baby vomits up the dose of medicine? Give her another dose of it or hope at least some of it went into her system?

It's happened to my son - he takes syrup now he's older but with a bout of fever accompanying a fluey bug he was feeling so agitated and out of sorts he barfed within about 3 minutes of a dose of Algifor. I had to wait another 4 hours before I could give him another dose because I was afraid of over-medicating him.

I don't think the use of "shove" or "force something into the butt" when discussing medicating children in ways you somehow disapprove of is in anyway ironic. There is nothing to suggest irony. Deliberately provocative maybe.
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