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View Poll Results: Which country would you as an 18 year old fluent in EN and FR study in ?
Switzerland 18 27.69%
United States 26 40.00%
United Kingdom 15 23.08%
Others 6 9.23%
Voters: 65. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old 05.06.2011, 14:51
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If you were 18 would you want to attend university in CH or the U.S.?

Well, I always thought that I would be able to claim some competence in the area of helping my children prepare for a university experience. Now that we have relocated to CH, I'm thinking otherwise. Yikes!

I've read everything on the topic of swiss universities that I could find on EF. Much of that was helpful, but directed primarily for English speakers needing to develop fluency in German/French to study here.

What if the potential student is already fluent in both English and, in this case, French? Would they be better off in a Swiss or American university? The Economist published an article not too long ago touting the general superiority of the American university experience. Personally, I loved my university experience in the U.S.

But, that was a little while ago, and since then, tuition costs have essentially tripled. Also, I worry about all the trouble that a kid can get into. But then again, college was hard, but fun!

So I already know that the Swiss universities cost almost nothing compared to an American university, although living expenses are substantial. What I don't know is:

Do universities, schools such as EPFL, provide a fun social growing experience? I went to a liberal arts school, my spouse to MIT, but we both have memories to cherish from those times.

Are college students as likely to encounter crazy parties/drugs/violence in Switzerland as in the U.S.?

Is a Swiss university education generally as flexible/useful in the job market as an American degree?

Where would you want to attend university if you were 18?
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Old 05.06.2011, 15:42
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Re: If you were 18 would you want to attend university in CH or the U.S.?

I had an amazing experience studying at home in the UK. Financially, it's sucky for life as you have what is pretty much a permanent debt (I believe it's the same in the states, but correct me if I'm wrong). However, living in a "university town" here, I kind of feel sorry for those at uni here. It's pretty quiet and there are no student offers available. I compare it to what my life was like in Southampton and feel very lucky.

However, I think it all depends on where you plan on staying afterwards. As has been said many, many times on EF... Swiss employers value Swiss qualifications over those from other countries. I was fortunate in that my employer recognises that an MA from the UK is still an MA, but I don't think there are many like that.

So it depends on a lot of factors. Studying in the UK is a blast, though!
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Old 05.06.2011, 15:48
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Re: If you were 18 would you want to attend university in CH or the U.S.?

Studying in Switzerland is about the studying, not the rad social life and mad parties. It's more like a job than a fun social experience. Also, if you want your Swiss degree to be worth anything in Switzerland, it still is "Masters or bust".
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Old 05.06.2011, 16:05
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Re: If you were 18 would you want to attend university in CH or the U.S.?

I have had this conversation many times with Swiss and expats who have lived in CH for many years and so many still seem to want to study in the UK.

What I find interesting though is how in recent years the bar has gone up - from a decent 2.1, then a first. So many employers in the UK now are only interested in you if you have a Masters and it has to be from a good Uni...
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Old 05.06.2011, 16:11
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Re: If you were 18 would you want to attend university in CH or the U.S.?

If I could do it all over again, I would study in Australia (Queensland) or Canada (McGill), and I wouldn't have done the military service first, neither.

I sometimes think I missed out on a lot by going into the military right out of high school, but I think also having started university AFTER the military made the whole experience more focused and disciplined. Plus my social circle was filled with adults and not other college students.

I did enjoy my college experiences in the US though. There wasn't anything negative about them, except the student loans that I'm still paying for.
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Old 05.06.2011, 17:00
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Re: If you were 18 would you want to attend university in CH or the U.S.?

Let your children choose and don't intervene. Send them to the right people to talk to, make your financial frame clear to your kids and let loose.
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Old 05.06.2011, 17:09
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Re: If you were 18 would you want to attend university in CH or the U.S.?

yes, student loans are a ball and chain.

i have no idea about universities here in c.h. but i do know that a lot depends on the university he chooses in the states and his line of study. i really loved going to school there, contrary to reality show programs, i found that there was a lot of studying going on and there was a real diversity in the student body which made it both competitive (in a good way) and rewarding in terms of the opportunities that were presented. this may be the same here, i don't know, but i wonder if there are the same opportunities in terms of research, networking, internships, etc.

i also think it's best if he chooses, and with most decisions there is always a chance to change. now is the time for him to take chances and feel secure that if it ends up not being the right choice, he can try the other.
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Old 05.06.2011, 17:15
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Re: If you were 18 would you want to attend university in CH or the U.S.?

I don't know much about what the universities are like here but in general my impression based on the people that I know are a) some come out of it pretty well (but they have doctorates from ETHZ) b) many don't seem to have much curiosity or drive, or it seems to have been beaten out of them by the educational culture (don't ask questions esp ones that make Herr Dr Professor look like he's made a mistake, don't stand out, don't make connections to what you should do without someone telling you). Sure, these things are universal but it seems more prominent here. YMMV.
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Old 05.06.2011, 17:25
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Re: If you were 18 would you want to attend university in CH or the U.S.?

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I don't know much about what the universities are like here but in general my impression based on the people that I know are a) some come out of it pretty well (but they have doctorates from ETHZ) b) many don't seem to have much curiosity or drive, or it seems to have been beaten out of them by the educational culture (don't ask questions esp ones that make Herr Dr Professor look like he's made a mistake, don't stand out, don't make connections to what you should do without someone telling you). Sure, these things are universal but it seems more prominent here. YMMV.
I remember a guest professor from the US at Aarhus university when i was studying linguistics there, he was specialized in French. He couldn't even say a word correctly in French let alone a full sentence. When I asked the guy to change to English because his French was just impossible to understand, I don't remember a happy helpful Mister Professor and he continued in his horrible French. At the end, he came to me to threaten me, I answered in Danish, which he didn't speak, and made fun of him the rest of the day.

Are US university professors incompetent? No they aren't. This one was.

Now make the connection to what you should do without me telling you.
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Old 05.06.2011, 17:26
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Re: If you were 18 would you want to attend university in CH or the U.S.?

It depends on where they plan to go in the US to be honest.

MIT is about the equivalent of EPFL or ETHZ in Switzerland. But if your kid is going to Harvard & co then I think it would be a missed opportunity not to go.

From what I've seen of the few institutes in Switzerland is that they are all of very good quality. Even the haute-ecoles surprised me!
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Old 05.06.2011, 17:27
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Re: If you were 18 would you want to attend university in CH or the U.S.?

I think this question hinges on a number of considerations: financial resources, course of study, and geographic considerations. If you are interested in IT, Science or Business and you have the money to pay for tuition and the ability to be accepted to the right Ivy League, the US education would have a certain brand image and network that might be more advantageous career wise than a Swss university degree would. However, I would imagine that as a whole there are few colleges outside the top 30 that can compete with the quality of education that Swiss universities provide. Also, a college degree will receive more recognition in the country in which you earned it. So if the student's goal is to remain in the States after graduation then attend a US college.
On a seperate note, If you are thinking about taking out loans to attend college, I would rather attend a Swiss university at little or no cost as opposed to being saddled with debt from a US college because of high tuition costs.
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Old 05.06.2011, 17:34
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Re: If you were 18 would you want to attend university in CH or the U.S.?

University studies is the ideal opportunity for the "kids" to cut the apron strings with parents. They have to make their own experience and fly on their own wings. Therefore it should be as far away as possible given the financial possibilities.
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Old 05.06.2011, 17:35
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Re: If you were 18 would you want to attend university in CH or the U.S.?

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Are US university professors incompetent? No they aren't. This one was.

Now make the connection to what you should do without me telling you.
Yes, your single example completely negates my generalities based on personal experiences based on years as an undergrad, graduate, post-doc etc. My connection? D- for you.
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Old 05.06.2011, 17:37
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Re: If you were 18 would you want to attend university in CH or the U.S.?

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I remember a guest professor from the US at Aarhus university when i was studying linguistics there, he was specialized in French. He couldn't even say a word correctly in French let alone a full sentence. When I asked the guy to change to English because his French was just impossible to understand, I don't remember a happy helpful Mister Professor and he continued in his horrible French. At the end, he came to me to threaten me, I answered in Danish, which he didn't speak, and made fun of him the rest of the day.

Are US university professors incompetent? No they aren't. This one was.

Now make the connection to what you should do without me telling you.
did he specialize in french syntax or french . this is quite common among linguistic programs. i've seen a ton of english professors from abroad who struggled when giving lectures. they were great resources in terms of understanding syntax and other topics, but completely inept at holding a conversation and explaining themselves in the language.

that being said, regardless of his level of french i'm not sure it's so appropriate to make fun of him. as a linguistic student surely you could have kept track of his mistakes and explained where his research of french should focus
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Old 05.06.2011, 17:42
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Re: If you were 18 would you want to attend university in CH or the U.S.?

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I don't know much about what the universities are like here but in general my impression based on the people that I know are a) some come out of it pretty well (but they have doctorates from ETHZ) b) many don't seem to have much curiosity or drive, or it seems to have been beaten out of them by the educational culture (don't ask questions esp ones that make Herr Dr Professor look like he's made a mistake, don't stand out, don't make connections to what you should do without someone telling you). Sure, these things are universal but it seems more prominent here. YMMV.
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I remember a guest professor from the US at Aarhus university when i was studying linguistics there, he was specialized in French. He couldn't even say a word correctly in French let alone a full sentence. When I asked the guy to change to English because his French was just impossible to understand, I don't remember a happy helpful Mister Professor and he continued in his horrible French. At the end, he came to me to threaten me, I answered in Danish, which he didn't speak, and made fun of him the rest of the day.

Are US university professors incompetent? No they aren't. This one was.

Now make the connection to what you should do without me telling you.
An empirical universal rule about university professors:

- If they have very good teaching skills then they are usually bad in research activities.
- If they have very good research activities then they usually have bad teaching skills
- Very tiny minority of prof. in excellent universities have both good research and teaching skills.
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Old 05.06.2011, 18:05
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Re: If you were 18 would you want to attend university in CH or the U.S.?

Nothing really compares to the experience in studying at a North American institution. There are so many programs and activities offered there, that aren't even available here. Let alone the infrastructure. North American insitutions are almost like a city in itself and offer a vast variety in extracurricular activities. In addition, most campuses are fitted with the latest technology and superb healthcare centers.
Another important factor is the interesting people you can meet there. I was able to travel to many countries, where I was able to meet friends and their families from universities which I've attended.
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Old 05.06.2011, 18:08
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Re: If you were 18 would you want to attend university in CH or the U.S.?

There's not many professions where the source of your degree makes a difference. Especially after a few years in the work place. I can't recall it ever being an issue when I was applying for jobs, nor when I was a hiring manager. I've worked with a few Oxford and Cambridge graduates - they've been no worse and no better than anyone else particularly. There were some from other older universities who were a bit snobby, but I just put it down to the inate insecurity they had from not making to Oxbridge. The redbrick graduates couldn't give a toss.

Go where you're happy to go, where you'll enjoy the culture, and where you can get the funding. If you're smart, you'll go to a Swiss university and ask mum and dad for some of the $$$$$ they're saving...
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Old 05.06.2011, 18:11
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Re: If you were 18 would you want to attend university in CH or the U.S.?

Being exposed to American and non American academic environment and all sorts of other environments, and having pedagogy as a hobby ...I think no matter what school one goes to, it is up to you how much you take in. If you worry about having prestigious degree, then go for them. But if you worry about having solid edu, then expect the most from yourself, push yourself hard, never compare yourself to you classmates, compare yourself to your mentors. Be diplomatic with profs who don't let you and soak everything you can from profs that do let you. Do your own thing, even it is not done here.

I did hear how stiff the environment can be, experienced some at UniGe myself, but honestly, it is about how much one dares and not giving in intimidation, being diplomatic. I think unies are good, you just have to have the right attitude, you have to dare argue and experiment in order to get somewhere, politely. Routine, disciplining work is done all over, one can benefit even in a bad school. When people realize you are different not to avoid work, but to have more of it, because it is enriching, they will slowly help, even if their academic ego does not necessarily agree with it, at first.

So, I'd say, people expect too much from schools. The drive for what is beyond the expected must come from within. If you have this attitude, with the great resources even bad schools offer, you can always only profit.

Stimulating classmates, cultural mix, open, vibrant circles, diversity and respect to it, interesting personalities, ingenious summer/part time work possibilities while one is studying, work and study combo, that's something different. I'd go for that elsewhere, for sure, if I was 18. But if your kids' horizons are already expanded, they are mature, and only plan to go after academics, then here it is peaceful, inexpensive (although a friend is sending her kid to US since just the boarding here, etc. comes to the same fees, apparently).

Go on, just let them choose. They should know by now on their own, anyways.
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Old 05.06.2011, 20:13
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Re: If you were 18 would you want to attend university in CH or the U.S.?

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An empirical universal rule about university professors:

- If they have very good teaching skills then they are usually bad in research activities.
- If they have very good research activities then they usually have bad teaching skills
- Very tiny minority of prof. in excellent universities have both good research and teaching skills.
Having attended two of the top 5 universities in the US, I would take exception to these 'rules'. Generally, one's proficiency at teaching is commensurate with one's attitude towards it. In general, I've found professors very much engaged in the enterprise of teaching. And, yes, both of my institutions were heavily research oriented.
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Old 05.06.2011, 21:55
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Re: If you were 18 would you want to attend university in CH or the U.S.?

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Having attended two of the top 5 universities in the US, I would take exception to these 'rules'. Generally, one's proficiency at teaching is commensurate with one's attitude towards it. In general, I've found professors very much engaged in the enterprise of teaching. And, yes, both of my institutions were heavily research oriented.
You are certainly right. I should have added that this is from my experience with french universities and therefore the universal is limited to "french" only
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