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  #121  
Old 06.06.2011, 20:22
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Re: Should the word "Näggr" be used in Swiss German?

I guess I can only speak from my own personal experiences of having (unfortunately) grown up in a very racist part of the US, but I think the reason that blacks don't like whites (or non-blacks) using the "N word" is because it was used so often to describe them with a negative connotation, prior to the civil rights movement. I mean, it wasn't so long ago when it was considered very socially acceptable for white people to call blacks "n***ers* and at the same time, to consider them to be inferior while forcing them to use separate drinking fountains and bathrooms, to sit at the back of the bus, etc.
Perhaps that word would not carry the connotation that it does if blacks had been treated equally throughout human history. But sadly, that's not the case. So I think the least we can do at this point is to grant them the respect of no longer referring to them with that horrible word.
  #122  
Old 06.06.2011, 20:23
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Re: Should the word "Näggr" be used in Swiss German?

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Yes, but just because you can find mentally defective examples of reactionary stupidity like this doesn't mean that the used of Ni***r and it's derivatives aren't racist. This view is a false syllogism.
So are you suggesting that (a) the use of the word in a child's workbook was intended to be racist? Or could it be that (b) it was put there in all innocence and that the intended hurt was constructed entirely in the minds of the child's parents? Or is it that (c) there was a cultural misunderstanding, maybe aggravated by the use of an outdated teaching book, that was blown out of all proportion?

To me it is clear that this is case (c) yet there seems to be a twist in this thread to somehow nail it as (a). Why?

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I guess I can only speak from my own personal experiences of having (unfortunately) grown up in a very racist part of the US, but I think the reason that blacks don't like whites (or non-blacks) using the "N word" is because it was used so often to describe them with a negative connotation, prior to the civil rights movement. I mean, it wasn't so long ago when it was considered very socially acceptable for white people to call blacks "n***ers* and at the same time, to consider them to be inferior while forcing them to use separate drinking fountains and bathrooms, to sit at the back of the bus, etc.
Perhaps that word would not carry the connotation that it does if blacks had been treated equally throughout human history. But sadly, that's not the case. So I think the least we can do at this point is to grant them the respect of no longer referring to them with that horrible word.
As far as I can remember from learning history, Blacks never had to use separate drinking fountains in Swiss history, and never had to sit at the back of the bus. Why then should some association that Americans have from their own past be steamrolled onto Switzerland? Is it because they messed up their race relations so badly that the rest of the world has to share in their guilt? Do Americans apologise for Switzerland's mercenary past?
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  #123  
Old 06.06.2011, 20:33
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Re: Should the word "Näggr" be used in Swiss German?

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As far as I can remember from learning history, Blacks never had to use separate drinking fountains in Swiss history, and never had to sit at the back of the bus. Why then should some association that Americans have from their own past be steamrolled onto Switzerland? Is it because they messed up their race relations so badly that the rest of the world has to share in their guilt? Do Americans apologise for Switzerland's mercenary past?
...you seem to have skipped a few classes. The triangle trade was started by Britain...just sayin'.
  #124  
Old 06.06.2011, 20:43
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Re: Should the word "Näggr" be used in Swiss German?

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Why then should some association that Americans have from their own past be steamrolled onto Switzerland? Is it because they messed up their race relations so badly that the rest of the world has to share in their guilt?
Of course not.. and this is precisely why I mentioned that I can only speak from my own cultural experience regarding the use of that word. And I do understand that the word may be often used with a different connotation here than it is in the US. But at the same time, I think the Swiss should understand why some blacks (and non-blacks) might take offense to it. And I think it would be incredibly insensitive to accuse any black person of not having the right to take offense to such a word.
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Old 06.06.2011, 20:43
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Re: Should the word "Näggr" be used in Swiss German?

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It's entirely racist if used by a white, state employed lawman (gets OJ off a murder rap), but "arty" if used in any HBO production (The Wire for example) and an absolute must if you're a rap artist demonstrating your wholesomeness to other 'hood dwellers.
Context is everything; that said, I'd hesitate to use the word myself, even though in a non-racist way, simply because of the history of the word (which is bound up with human history, from which it's connatations are derived) and because of the lijkelyhood my innocent usage being misunderstood. Anyone who doesn't get that is just, well, ignorant.
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  #126  
Old 06.06.2011, 20:48
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Re: Should the word "Näggr" be used in Swiss German?

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Well, a sample size of 1 is usually enough for the EF...

No biggie, on to the next popcorn-crunching thread..
If something like this happened to you ro your would wait until you a statistically verified sample size before you took any action on the matter?

Really?

Seriously?

Hmmm....
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  #127  
Old 06.06.2011, 20:52
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Re: Should the word "Näggr" be used in Swiss German?

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Of course not.. and this is precisely why I mentioned that I can only speak from my own cultural experience regarding the use of that word. And I do understand that the word may be often used with a different connotation here than it is in the US. But at the same time, I think the Swiss should understand why some blacks (and non-blacks) might take offense to it. And I think it would be incredibly insensitive to accuse any black person of not having the right to take offense to such a word.
It's a human right to take offense. But objectively, it's a different country, it's a different language and the offense isn't intended. Some words don't translate 100% and when learning a new language that's maybe something people can bear in mind a bit more often. If you go into a different country and automatically assume that anything you don't feel comfortable with is done maliciouly to annoy and discriminate you, then maybe you are actually the cause of the problem come the day that people really do start being nasty on purpose. If people wouldn't jump to concusions so quickly and assume the innocence of the other until proven guilty people could get on so much better.
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  #128  
Old 06.06.2011, 21:10
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Re: Should the word "Näggr" be used in Swiss German?

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So are you suggesting that (a) the use of the word in a child's workbook was intended to be racist? Or could it be that (b) it was put there in all innocence and that the intended hurt was constructed entirely in the minds of the child's parents? Or is it that (c) there was a cultural misunderstanding, maybe aggravated by the use of an outdated teaching book, that was blown out of all proportion?

To me it is clear that this is case (c) yet there seems to be a twist in this thread to somehow nail it as (a). Why?
A. No. I am suggesting that it IS racist. What i find most intriguing is that others are suggesting that because they didn't say it and it doesn't bother them that it doesn't matter. This is clearly incorrect or we wouldn't be having this conversation. Which leads to...

B. A significant number of posts in this thread are saying just that. Interesting that people that proclaim the irrelevance of this issue are still intent on waiting so much bandwidth to argue against something that should never affect them.

C. I think it is nice to posit the assumption that it was/is a misunderstanding. But I find as you go down the years that many if not most things like this are not as innocent as they seem at first viewing. It is laziness or sloppiness at best that keeps these things alive. Cultural context is a convenient shield for much of what we want to say or do but "know" that we really shouldn't anymore. This is because, all protestations aside, we have learned and we do know better.


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As far as I can remember from learning history, Blacks never had to use separate drinking fountains in Swiss history, and never had to sit at the back of the bus. Why then should some association that Americans have from their own past be steamrolled onto Switzerland? Is it because they messed up their race relations so badly that the rest of the world has to share in their guilt? Do Americans apologise for Switzerland's mercenary past?
Does Switzerland do business with the rest of the world? Are you completely isolated from the rest of the world? And it isn't just Americans and their sorted past that is on display here. What nations did business and continue to do business since the dawn of the global African slave trade? What nations continued to exercise racial based priorities near the end of the last century and who was a major partner for them?

We are none of us from a nation that can be held blameless for what happened. One can pretend all one wants but these things did happen. Seems to be a recurring theme.
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  #129  
Old 06.06.2011, 21:10
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Re: Should the word "Näggr" be used in Swiss German?

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It's a human right to take offense. But objectively, it's a different country, it's a different language and the offense isn't intended. Some words don't translate 100% and when learning a new language that's maybe something people can bear in mind a bit more often. If you go into a different country and automatically assume that anything you don't feel comfortable with is done maliciouly to annoy and discriminate you, then maybe you are actually the cause of the problem come the day that people really do start being nasty on purpose. If people wouldn't jump to concusions so quickly and assume the innocence of the other until proven guilty people could get on so much better.
what the hell are you even blathering about here?

OP's kid was chased around and called a "naegger"
another guy who actually grew up here and went to school here in modern times has confirmed this word is not used to describe people unless in a racist manner.

jesus some people will play devil's advocate until their faces turn blue. wake up, daydreamer.
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  #130  
Old 06.06.2011, 21:15
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Re: Should the word "Näggr" be used in Swiss German?

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It's a human right to take offense. But objectively, it's a different country, it's a different language and the offense isn't intended. Some words don't translate 100% and when learning a new language that's maybe something people can bear in mind a bit more often. If you go into a different country and automatically assume that anything you don't feel comfortable with is done maliciouly to annoy and discriminate you, then maybe you are actually the cause of the problem come the day that people really do start being nasty on purpose. If people wouldn't jump to concusions so quickly and assume the innocence of the other until proven guilty people could get on so much better.
I'm honestly not trying to argue your point here, just for the sake of arguing (I can't stand people who do that). I actually really appreciate debates like this because they tend to force me to think more deeply about my own cultural and/or objective interpretations (one of the reasons I love this forum!).
But let me ask you this, if I may...
If you were at a dinner and there was an "African American" there, would you hesitate to use the "N word" in his or her presence, if you found yourself in a conversation about black people? Or would you use the word regardless of his or her possibly taking offense to it, since you know that your intention was not to upset him or her?
  #131  
Old 06.06.2011, 21:23
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Re: Should the word "Näggr" be used in Swiss German?

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I'm honestly not trying to argue your point here, just for the sake of arguing (I can't stand people who do that). I actually really appreciate debates like this because they tend to force me to think more deeply about my own cultural and/or objective interpretations (one of the reasons I love this forum!).
But let me ask you this, if I may...
If you were at a dinner and there was an "African American" there, would you hesitate to use the "N word" in his or her presence, if you found yourself in a conversation about black people? Or would you use the word regardless of his or her possibly taking offense to it, since you know that your intention was not to upset him or her?
I wouldn't use the term in any language myself. But if a foreigner used it, or somebody else who for any reason wasn't aware of the negative connotations, I wouldn't be pointing my finger in accusation. I've been in situations myself where I've struggled along in some foreign language that I only understood the basics of the basics of and have accidentally said some pretty crude things but when this was explained to me we all laughed together "that's a bad word in your language? cool! I've learnt my first rude word! Ha Ha Ha!". Nobody got into a fit over it and accused me of anything, and I wouldn't dream of accusing anybody who did that in my language.
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Old 06.06.2011, 21:26
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Re: Should the word "Näggr" be used in Swiss German?

It's not accepted by 'THE Swiss'. I am Swiss and I find it extremely offensive, and so would most of the Swiss I know. Not just the word, but the stereotype. Way, way out of order. All the Swiss I know are fully aware of the meaning, etc, Amogle!

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  #133  
Old 06.06.2011, 21:26
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Re: Should the word "Näggr" be used in Swiss German?

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It's a human right to take offense. But objectively, it's a different country, it's a different language and the offense isn't intended. Some words don't translate 100% and when learning a new language that's maybe something people can bear in mind a bit more often. If you go into a different country and automatically assume that anything you don't feel comfortable with is done maliciouly to annoy and discriminate you, then maybe you are actually the cause of the problem come the day that people really do start being nasty on purpose. If people wouldn't jump to concusions so quickly and assume the innocence of the other until proven guilty people could get on so much better.
You right about one thing. It is a different country.

What about Swiss banks 'face apartheid lawsuit'?

I am not saying that Switzerland is/was worse or better than any other particular country in this matter. (my daughter loved and still does treasure a fondness for Switzerland as do her parents.) What I am saying is that to continue to claim that there is no link or understanding of the issues involved due to language or place in this particular senario is a fantasy bordering on delusional. Especially given what has been shown to have gone before.

Most of the twisting is fairly easy to spot. What concerns me is why so much effort is being spent to deny what is being discussed might, unfortunately, be within the experience and purview of us all. In all probability none of us are wholly innocent or guilty, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't happen here.
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  #134  
Old 06.06.2011, 21:47
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Re: Should the word "Näggr" be used in Swiss German?

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I wouldn't use the term in any language myself. But if a foreigner used it, or somebody else who for any reason wasn't aware of the negative connotations, I wouldn't be pointing my finger in accusation. I've been in situations myself where I've struggled along in some foreign language that I only understood the basics of the basics of and have accidentally said some pretty crude things but when this was explained to me we all laughed together "that's a bad word in your language? cool! I've learnt my first rude word! Ha Ha Ha!". Nobody got into a fit over it and accused me of anything, and I wouldn't dream of accusing anybody who did that in my language.
I agree that people shouldn't be too quick to accuse others of being racist, particularly when it's a matter of cultural syntax. But I guess I see it like this...
Yes, while some people/cultures may not realize that certain words CAN be offensive, perhaps they should be made aware of the fact that these words CAN be offensive, regardless of intention.
For one thing, I think that there are a lot of racist people out there who don't even realize they're racist. And what I personally define as being "racist" is the negative stereotyping of a group of people according to skin color.
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Old 06.06.2011, 21:50
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Re: Should the word "Näggr" be used in Swiss German?

  #136  
Old 06.06.2011, 22:15
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Re: Should the word "Näggr" be used in Swiss German?

BTW re-read the OP - this word is used IN AN 'OFFICIAL' SCHOOL WORKSHEET - WITH A VERY STEREOTYPICAL PICTURE- not by a young child or poorly educated person who does not know better. I would certainly challenge this with the teacher- if s/he prepared the sheet, or with the school or education authority if it stems from them.

As a teacher, I find it incredible (and more) that the teachers at the school have not picked this up themselves. Which educated person in 2011 could possibly let this be given to children (unless...)

could you scan and post the worksheet here for us to 'judge' for ourselves. I'd like to show it to Swiss friends from all walks of life to gauge their reaction. I am abso sure that none of the teachers would find it acceptable - and hope that all or most others would feel the same.
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  #137  
Old 06.06.2011, 22:34
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Re: Should the word Nigger be used in Swiss German?

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This is always the question when I tell someone that I refuse to use the word "black" to refer to someone with darker skin.

I usually just say--whatever their name is
Caucasians come in many different skin tones- have we ever felt the need to describe them in terms of skin colour? I could invent one though I suppose- the sheet white one, the slightly sallow off- white, the bluish -white, the brown, the yellow. No we only use those terms with people of a different race, even when their colour may in fact be pretty similar to Caucasians.
One of my favourite books is by Philip Roth- the Human Stain which addresses race and identity. we really should give up classing people on skin colour

  #138  
Old 06.06.2011, 22:50
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Re: Should the word "Näggr" be used in Swiss German?

I didn't want to bother to read the whole thing but all I can add that there are certain words that should never be used in civilized world because they have very offensive connotation, vile and spake the hatred. Irrespective of the language, let's not fool each other they all have same negative meaning. Period. You don't want your child to grow up educated on such. Btw: don't enjoy discussing the topic any further...

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  #139  
Old 06.06.2011, 22:59
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Re: Should the word "Näggr" be used in Swiss German?

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BTW re-read the OP - this word is used IN AN 'OFFICIAL' SCHOOL WORKSHEET - WITH A VERY STEREOTYPICAL PICTURE- not by a young child or poorly educated person who does not know better. I would certainly challenge this with the teacher- if s/he prepared the sheet, or with the school or education authority if it stems from them.

As a teacher, I find it incredible (and more) that the teachers at the school have not picked this up themselves. Which educated person in 2011 could possibly let this be given to children (unless...)

could you scan and post the worksheet here for us to 'judge' for ourselves. I'd like to show it to Swiss friends from all walks of life to gauge their reaction. I am abso sure that none of the teachers would find it acceptable - and hope that all or most others would feel the same.
I've got dibs on it as my new avatar.
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Old 06.06.2011, 23:19
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Re: Should the word Nigger be used in Swiss German?

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"Jetz bin I Neger worden" Along the lines of "He's a bit of a Jew" - indicating tightfistedness. Not really on.
Do you mean that one can say that expression "he's a bit of a Jew" without chocking English speaker????
You say that in my home and you are asked to leave. Germans will never ever use Jews in any expressions. If the expressions is not meant offensive in English, then make sure I am not hearing it. My old nazi aunty however would not complain...

I am so shocked by that expression, I looked up and found also "to jew someone down". Can you seriously use that in an English speaking environment?
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