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  #61  
Old 30.06.2011, 18:15
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Re: Type 2 diabetes in newly diagnosed 'can be reversed' - drastic 2 month diet.

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Why do doctors prescribe medications and treatments when it is not necessary. Why has a watch dog agency been set up to review the doctors charge
Some of it could be patient-led. You even read on here from time to time about people moaning that they've been to their "incompetent" doctor who wouldn't prescribe them anything even though they themselves think they should have had all manner of antibiotics or whatever.

Maybe doctors are slowly beginning to feel they should give them a prescription for something and invite them to a follow up appointment to close the circle of their treatment.
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  #62  
Old 30.06.2011, 18:20
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Re: Type 2 diabetes in newly diagnosed 'can be reversed' - drastic 2 month diet.

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More of a realistic point of view. We have greedy self centered business people . Why are the doctors not affected.

As I said there are good doctors. Actually there are some great doctors but there are doctors who are not so

Why do doctors prescribe medications and treatments when it is not neccessary. Why has a watch dog agency been set up to review the doctors charge
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Yes, there are some (good) doctors who are doing this but not enough. Most are ruled by the money from reoccurring appointments.
"Realistic" would infer the presence of fact. I could respect your argument more if you produced some. At the moment, your argument is purely subjective.
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  #63  
Old 30.06.2011, 18:24
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Re: Type 2 diabetes in newly diagnosed 'can be reversed' - drastic 2 month diet.

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Realism is based on facts, I could respect your argument more if you produced some. At the moment, your argument is purely subjective.
Go on the internet and you can check it out for yourself. Lots of material and research showing people are not getting healthier from medications.

Please please understand I am not painting the whole health field as bad. Check it out yourself.
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  #64  
Old 30.06.2011, 18:29
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Re: Type 2 diabetes in newly diagnosed 'can be reversed' - drastic 2 month diet.

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Some of it could be patient-led. You even read on here from time to time about people moaning that they've been to their "incompetent" doctor who wouldn't prescribe them anything even though they themselves think they should have had all manner of antibiotics or whatever.

Maybe doctors are slowly beginning to feel they should give them a prescription for something and invite them to a follow up appointment to close the circle of their treatment.
Yes, of course much of it is patient led. Based upon lack of knowledge and bad information. But many people thanks to the internet are becoming more knowledgeable and are asking for more.

Many doctors are feeling the pinch as a result.

A numbers of years ago a professor from a german university told me that many of the people who want to become doctors are doing so for the money.

I think the message is Question your doctors or if you do not like what they say go some place else. When you find a good doctor hang on.
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  #65  
Old 30.06.2011, 18:29
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Re: Type 2 diabetes in newly diagnosed 'can be reversed' - drastic 2 month diet.

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Yes, there are some (good) doctors who are doing this but not enough. Most are ruled by the money from reoccurring appointments.
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Go on the internet and you can check it out for yourself. Lots of material and research showing people are not getting healthier from medications.

Please please understand I am not painting the whole health field as bad. Check it out yourself.
I'll take that as an admission that

a) There are no facts to support your jaded view.
b) (a) remains in force until you prove the assertion you made rather than relying on others to do it for you.
c) People not getting healthier after medication has nothing to do with Dr's being ruled by money and that medicines are more likely to be ineffective rather than effective, and this has nothing to do with the Dr's that do not make these medicines.
d) You dug the hole and can't get out of it.
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  #66  
Old 30.06.2011, 18:35
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Re: Type 2 diabetes in newly diagnosed 'can be reversed' - drastic 2 month diet.

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I'll take that as an admission that

a) There are no facts to support your jaded view.
b) (a) remains in force until you prove the assertion you made rather than relying on others to do it for you.
c) People not getting healthier after medication has nothing to do with Dr's being ruled by money and that medicines are more likely to be ineffective rather than effective, and this has nothing to do with the Dr's that do not make these medicines.
d) You dug the hole and can't get out of it.
Typical response for this response.

Try Using your common sense than having to find a study to support your opinion. All studies can be slanted to support your view. Try trusting your own opinion.

I started to get healthy when I formulated my own opinion and faced reality.
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  #67  
Old 30.06.2011, 18:37
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Re: Type 2 diabetes in newly diagnosed 'can be reversed' - drastic 2 month diet.

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Typical response for this response.

Try Using your common sense than having to find a study to support your opinion. All studies can be slanted to support your view. Try trusting your own opinion.

I started to get healthy when I formulated my own opinion and faced reality.
If you are not going to produce facts , or a shred of evidence to support your claims then do not expect to waste any more of my time.

You are dodging the question. You don't have any evidence do you ?
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  #68  
Old 30.06.2011, 20:02
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Re: Type 2 diabetes in newly diagnosed 'can be reversed' - drastic 2 month diet.

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I think the message is Question your doctors or if you do not like what they say go some place else. When you find a good doctor hang on.
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Typical response for this response.

Try Using your common sense than having to find a study to support your opinion. All studies can be slanted to support your view. Try trusting your own opinion.

I started to get healthy when I formulated my own opinion and faced reality.
So basically you are saying some doctors are good and some are bad based on your own experience?

It doesn't really need a ground breaking study to come up with that, though.

Last edited by Sandgrounder; 30.06.2011 at 20:07. Reason: Linked in the wrong quote
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  #69  
Old 30.06.2011, 20:05
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Re: Type 2 diabetes in newly diagnosed 'can be reversed' - drastic 2 month diet.

The claim I challenged was "Most are ruled by money"
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  #70  
Old 30.06.2011, 20:09
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Re: Type 2 diabetes in newly diagnosed 'can be reversed' - drastic 2 month diet.

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The claim I challenged was "Most are ruled by money"
Sorry UTH, I linked in the wrong quote...

I'm dangerous today.
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  #71  
Old 01.07.2011, 08:35
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Re: Type 2 diabetes in newly diagnosed 'can be reversed' - drastic 2 month diet.

Well, sure, not all doctors are ethical, just like everyone else. D'oh, as Homer Simpson would say.

For many, many people "lifestyle" changes can turn around or mitigate the effects of type 2 diabetes. But not every patient responds in the same way, and not everyone is going to comply. What are you going to do with the non compliant ones? Shoot them? I imagine some of you might feel that way.

For some people, meds are a necessity. People who take meds are not necessarily stupid sheep, either - not everyone has side effects. Some individuals require meds.

If doctor sees a patient with uncontrolled diabetes and says to the patient "come back when you're ready to make some changes", without offering any treatment, that's unethical.

Everyone has a different opinion on how best to proceed - and there's just not one way. And of course, the existence of meds has made it easier for some patients to bypass lifestyle changes. I also think that we need to look at how we teach people to make those lifestyle changes, and how to support people making those changes.....(by support I mean the tools that people use) - telling someone to "shut their piehole", doesn't quite cut it.

For some people the radical very low calorie diet (VLCD) may work. It's fast, you see progress and you're monitored. Monitoring is, I think, key here.

However, once the weight is lost and the diet over, the patient has to return to an appropriate eating level with activity. This is where people can often gain all the weight they've lost plus more because their body has become accustomed to less food in the meantime. Setting people up for cycles of weight loss and gain is worse than never losing the weight at all. That's the point.

And how important is increased activity vs. just weight loss? Because not everyone is going to loose weight and keep it off - once you become insulin resistant, weight loss can be increasingly difficult.

But the other point about the original article is that it is unusual for someone to publish an article in a peer-reviewed journal with 11 subjects. That seems a very small sample study, and just a short follow up. Still, this may be a valuable path to follow. Time will tell.

Last edited by edot; 01.07.2011 at 08:58.
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  #72  
Old 01.07.2011, 09:07
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Re: Type 2 diabetes in newly diagnosed 'can be reversed' - drastic 2 month diet.

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If you are not going to produce facts , or a shred of evidence to support your claims then do not expect to waste any more of my time.

You are dodging the question. You don't have any evidence do you ?

If you don't want to waste your time why do you spend so much time onthis forum?

If you don'twant to waste your time then why are spending so much time tryingto pick an argument with me?

This threadwas about the discussion of diabetes which I had and which I improve with diet. The point was that I took my life into my hands and stopped depending onthe doctors and the medication. BUT I did “use” the excellent services of thediabetic Clinic at Hirslanden Hospital in my journey to recovery. I amvery grateful to them. The only time I have been back to a doctor is because ofan eye problem. As a side note the diabetic clinic is being shoved off to theside because it does not make enough money as the rest of theHirslanden(surgery etc)

In myopinion, the journey has been about learning to be independent and realize thatI have choices in my life. To beginquestioning the politicians, the business leaders and especially the medicalprofessionals, most of whom profess to care about me when they really don’t.There “are” those who do but I will not find out if I do not question.

So, this is my opinion, I am not going to supply you with a whole lot ofstudies. You can take it or leave it. That is your choice. It is okay for youto question but if you do not like my answers then do your own research as Ihave done my mine.
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  #73  
Old 01.07.2011, 09:10
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Re: Type 2 diabetes in newly diagnosed 'can be reversed' - drastic 2 month diet.

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So basically you are saying some doctors are good and some are bad based on your own experience?

It doesn't really need a ground breaking study to come up with that, though.
You are right but there "are" those who believe that because a person has Dr. in front of their name they know everything and are not to be questioned.
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  #74  
Old 01.07.2011, 09:23
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Re: Type 2 diabetes in newly diagnosed 'can be reversed' - drastic 2 month diet.

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You are right but there "are" those who believe that because a person has Dr. in front of their name they know everything and are not to be questioned.
That might have been the case with my grandparents generation but I think you are giving people nowadays less credit than they deserve. If I am not showing signs of improvement I go and find another doctor. I don't think this makes me stand out as particularly enlightened, though; anyone else would do the same.

As others have mentioned, the patient has to cooperate, whether it means finishing a course of antibiotics or a complete lifestyle change.

So far, the experiences I have had with the doctors here have been excellent. I never felt that I was being treated unnecessarily nor the doctor was trying to make money out of me.
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  #75  
Old 01.07.2011, 09:27
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Re: Type 2 diabetes in newly diagnosed 'can be reversed' - drastic 2 month diet.

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For some people, meds are a necessity. People who take meds are not necessarily stupid sheep, either - not everyone has side effects. Some individuals require meds.

If doctor sees a patient with uncontrolled diabetes and says to the patient "come back when you're ready to make some changes", without offering any treatment, that's unethical.

Everyone has a different opinion on how best to proceed - and there's just not one way. And of course, the existence of meds has made it easier for some patients to bypass lifestyle changes. I also think that we need to look at how we teach people to make those lifestyle changes, and how to support people making those changes.....(by support I mean the tools that people use) - telling someone to "shut their piehole", doesn't quite cut it.

For some people the radical very low calorie diet (VLCD) may work. It's fast, you see progress and you're monitored. Monitoring is, I think, key here.

However, once the weight is lost and the diet over, the patient has to return to an appropriate eating level with activity. This is where people can often gain all the weight they've lost plus more because their body has become accustomed to less food in the meantime. Setting people up for cycles of weight loss and gain is worse than never losing the weight at all. That's the point.

And how important is increased activity vs. just weight loss? Because not everyone is going to loose weight and keep it off - once you become insulin resistant, weight loss can be increasingly difficult.

But the other point about the original article is that it is unusual for someone to publish an article in a peer-reviewed journal with 11 subjects. That seems a very small sample study, and just a short follow up. Still, this may be a valuable path to follow. Time will tell.
It is not a question of stupidity, but rather a blind faith in a system that is not perfect. Actually, in my mind I actually believed that my fait had been determined until I read a book that gave me the hope and belief that I could actually do something about it.

I agree it might be unethical to tell people to goi away but in some cases it might be just the thing. There are many people who really do not want to get better and are dependent on the medical systems which of course drives up the costs

I agree that that answer is not to tell people to shut up. . In some cases this is what Drs do when questions are asked. Not directly of course.

Yes, my weight maintenance is a challenge especially when the grocery stores and restaurants are loaded with and promote products that are unhealthy for me. But I take this as a challenge and am enjoying the experience of the discovery of new foods, spices and herbs.
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  #76  
Old 01.07.2011, 10:00
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Re: Type 2 diabetes in newly diagnosed 'can be reversed' - drastic 2 month diet.

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Actually, in my mind I actually believed that my fate had been determined until I read a book that gave me the hope and belief that I could actually do something about it.
Why don't you share the book's title/author for anyone that might be interested and comes across this thread?
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  #77  
Old 01.07.2011, 11:02
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Re: Type 2 diabetes in newly diagnosed 'can be reversed' - drastic 2 month diet.

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That might have been the case with my grandparents generation but I think you are giving people nowadays less credit than they deserve. If I am not showing signs of improvement I go and find another doctor. I don't think this makes me stand out as particularly enlightened, though; anyone else would do the same.

As others have mentioned, the patient has to cooperate, whether it means finishing a course of antibiotics or a complete lifestyle change.

So far, the experiences I have had with the doctors here have been excellent. I never felt that I was being treated unnecessarily nor the doctor was trying to make money out of me.
I agree that people are much more enlighhtened now adays thanks much to the internet. Actually I am finding these are exciting times as many people are beginning to question. But there are those who still do not question for many reasons. I was one of them.

There were days when antibiotics were given when it was not neccessary and it still is.

I too have had excellent Drs but I also have had some who are not.

You may not be aware that a Dr is making money out of you. I knew somone who worked for a Dr. and many tests were done that were not neccessaray.
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  #78  
Old 01.07.2011, 11:06
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Re: Type 2 diabetes in newly diagnosed 'can be reversed' - drastic 2 month diet.

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You may not be aware that a Dr is making money out of you. I knew somone who worked for a Dr. and many tests were done that were not neccessaray.
No really?? I thought they worked for free!
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  #79  
Old 01.07.2011, 11:12
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Re: Type 2 diabetes in newly diagnosed 'can be reversed' - drastic 2 month diet.

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No really?? I thought they worked for free!
Okay let me explain. Dr. A tells patient B that a test needs to be that is not neccessary. The test is done and the Dr. makes a profit on the test. But the test was nbot neccessary at all but Dr A made profit. Do you understand now?

I will forward the name of the book when I get to the office a little later.

By for now
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  #80  
Old 01.07.2011, 11:18
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Re: Type 2 diabetes in newly diagnosed 'can be reversed' - drastic 2 month diet.

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Okay let me explain. Dr. A tells patient B that a test needs to be that is not neccessary. The test is done and the Dr. makes a profit on the test. But the test was nbot neccessary at all but Dr A made profit. Do you understand now?

I will forward the name of the book when I get to the office a little later.

By for now
I think you will find that Swiss Dr's seem to be quite thorough. They have a relatively vast infrastructure to draw from when it comes to diagnosis. Just because a test comes back negative does not mean that test was not required. A negative test eliminates certain suspected causes and forms the basis of a thorough examination.

May I ask how you are qualified to determine that a certain test was not necessary ?
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