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Old 06.07.2011, 13:38
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Re: 6 year old marched out of the class by the scruff of his neck

I totally agree that any teacher who cannot reasonably control a class probably isn't in the right profession, but what about truly and dangerously uncontrollable little shites, who even the best teachers in the world have no control over? Do we pussyfoot around them too?
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  #42  
Old 06.07.2011, 13:46
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Re: 6 year old marched out of the class by the scruff of his neck

Many feel that they have no choice but to do so, and in my opinion, to the detriment of all, especially the kids. It takes an awful time, and lots of dedication, to deal with discipline issues, and follow them up with other staff and parents (in the teacher's own time of course, be it lunch-time, breaks or after school).
I know, I taught at several inner city comprehensives in the UK. Must say though, that the Class Tutor and Head of Year system there was hugely helpful in following up kids who had real problem (I am talking Secondary schools here). In CH (as in most countries apart from UK- this does not exist, and teachers often feel totally isolated and unsupported).
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  #43  
Old 06.07.2011, 13:47
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Re: 6 year old marched out of the class by the scruff of his neck

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The argument that "it never did me no 'arm" is, quite frankly, reactionary bollocks. We are not living in the 19th century any more.
I know I'm looking good for my age Dougal, but I am not at least 120 years old!!

In this instance the "reactionary bollocks" is actually the "Oh poor old Tarquin, his delicate psyche will not be able to deal with such a display of brutality"

A core failing of society (as a whole - although perhaps not to the same extent in Switzerland) is the failure of respect between age groups. This combined with a lack of discipline is the root cause of most of the social ills we rant against.

At least I'm not suggesting national service
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  #44  
Old 06.07.2011, 13:49
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Re: 6 year old marched out of the class by the scruff of his neck

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I know I'm looking good for my age Dougal, but I am not at least 120 years old!!

In this instance the "reactionary bollocks" is actually the "Oh poor old Tarquin, his delicate psyche will not be able to deal with such a display of brutality"

A core failing of society (as a whole - although perhaps not to the same extent in Switzerland) is the failure of respect between age groups. This combined with a lack of discipline is the root cause of most of the social ills we rant against.

At least I'm not suggesting national service
Why not? National service is a very good idea for the UK
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  #45  
Old 06.07.2011, 13:51
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Re: 6 year old marched out of the class by the scruff of his neck

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  #46  
Old 06.07.2011, 13:55
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Re: 6 year old marched out of the class by the scruff of his neck

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I totally agree that any teacher who cannot reasonably control a class probably isn't in the right profession, but what about truly and dangerously uncontrollable little shites, who even the best teachers in the world have no control over? Do we pussyfoot around them too?

Nooo, that would be the end of us. Really. But there are very sophisticated and efficient ways to deal with those special cases. Sophisticated does not mean lengthy and inefficient, but focusing on reasons that make kids non cooperative. And, usually, they get removed, special care, mediation, long term therapy and reinsertion. Usually being removed is hard enough to buckle down and play by the rules. There is a time period that if a teacher reaches out for the "reaseau", it is very helpful. If you don't reach out or want to treat defects solely yourself, than the risk of shortcuts and blow ups increases. It's been decades when teachers thought they have to manage all by themselves...no longer so, thankfully. Prevention is the most efficient, though. Constictency. Respect.

You can't demand respect, though. You have to have it first, in order to expect it from others.
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  #47  
Old 06.07.2011, 14:06
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Re: 6 year old marched out of the class by the scruff of his neck

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I totally agree that any teacher who cannot reasonably control a class probably isn't in the right profession, but what about truly and dangerously uncontrollable little shites, who even the best teachers in the world have no control over? Do we pussyfoot around them too?
True, many classes waste a lot of time with the class-control stuf and dealing with issues and all that detracts from actual productive teaching time. Some of the little critters do it intentionally because the less time there is to teach, the less they need to know and the less the teacher can test them on. But we as a society pay the price because the standards of education are falling.
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  #48  
Old 06.07.2011, 14:19
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Re: 6 year old marched out of the class by the scruff of his neck

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True, many classes waste a lot of time with the class-control stuf and dealing with issues and all that detracts from actual productive teaching time. Some of the little critters do it intentionally because the less time there is to teach, the less they need to know and the less the teacher can test them on. But we as a society pay the price because the standards of education are falling.
Hmmm....unless you load up the class with so much work they have no time for the mischief. Unless you incorporate discipline in the way that does not make you the cop. You inspire kids to discipline themselves. You expect a lot, and they hardly ever disappoint, they are glad somebody expects a lot from them, since it is a priviledge.

You can only waste as much of the valuable teaching time as much you allow yourself. Kids are not worse than they were before. I don't think the standards are falling. I think some do not know how to prevent troubles fast, and in time.
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Old 06.07.2011, 14:33
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Re: 6 year old marched out of the class by the scruff of his neck

I do have sympathy for any teacher who struggles to find the right or "acceptable" way to deal with an unruly child, particularly when it could potentially cause them to lose their jobs. I just don't think that all situations can be dealt with by use of a teacher's handbook.
What is a teacher supposed to do if, for example, a child's bad behavior is holding up the class and the child refuses to be quiet or leave the classroom? Is the teacher expected to just let the child remain in the classroom, or should the teacher physically remove the child (preferably with as little force as possible)?
Of course, I know there are *some* teachers who are too quick to use physical force, but I also can't help but wonder if some of these parents who complain about the way their child was punished in a schoolroom are actually trying to transfer the blame away from their child and onto the teacher.
So I guess I just don't see it as a "black and white issue." Some situations may in fact demand some slight physical force, such as ushering a child out of a classroom. But do I think that trying to control a child's behavior by inflicting pain upon him or her (e.g. smacking or spanking)? Never.
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Old 06.07.2011, 14:56
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Re: 6 year old marched out of the class by the scruff of his neck

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I totally agree that any teacher who cannot reasonably control a class probably isn't in the right profession, but what about truly and dangerously uncontrollable little shites, who even the best teachers in the world have no control over? Do we pussyfoot around them too?
I think kids know which teachers they can walk all over and which not. In my class (probably the same for everyone) we had a couple of these little shites that would wind up the softer teachers to the point where the teacher would end up exploding and losing control, much to the delight of the little b**tards turning the key.

Then there was the other teachers who just had the X factor in keeping the whole class' attention without even the need to raise their voice. It's a delicate balance; if a teacher shows just once that they can lose control with a class there is an element which will capitalise on it and the teacher has got a 10 fold job to get them back onside.
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  #51  
Old 06.07.2011, 14:59
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Re: 6 year old marched out of the class by the scruff of his neck

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I think kids know which teachers they can walk all over and which not. In my class (probably the same for everyone) we had a couple of these little shites that would wind up the softer teachers to the point where the teacher would end up exploding and losing control, much to the delight of the little b**tards turning the key.

Then there was the other teachers who just had the X factor in keeping the whole class' attention without even the need to raise their voice. It's a delicate balance; if a teacher shows just once that they can lose control with a class there is an element which will capitalise on it and the teacher has got a 10 fold job to get them back onside.
You are oh so right!
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  #52  
Old 06.07.2011, 15:17
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Re: 6 year old marched out of the class by the scruff of his neck

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I totally agree that any teacher who cannot reasonably control a class probably isn't in the right profession, but what about truly and dangerously uncontrollable little shites, who even the best teachers in the world have no control over? Do we pussyfoot around them too?
Indeed, there are classes where nobody can controle the students. Such places are not rare in the UK, in France and the US. A Canadian colleague told me horror stories about a place in Montreal I forgot the name of but that did it for me: Québec = holliday, not work. For ever.

That being said: we are not talking about such a class here. And most of the cases of disagreement I know of in Switzerland are based on different wordings of the same events because of different perceptions. We have to admit that the two following sentences can describe the exact same event:
- I was marched out of the class by the scruff of my neck by a rough teacher.
- I took the student out of the class for a cool off moment by leading the child with a firm hand on its upper back.

Children and teenagers as late as in their 16th year of age do have or may have difficulties making the difference between the feeling occuring during an event and the actions taken during that event. No doubt the child felt crushed by the authority of the teacher, but the fact is not necessarily crushing the child with physical violence. Just sayin'...

EDIT: In my whole carrieer, there is ONE class I didn't manage to controle, because of two students (class was fine when both were absent sick). I controled all the other 80+ classes I've had before, during and after. A parent of one student in that class could have sued me for being incompetent... would that have made sense? Please think before answering.
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  #53  
Old 06.07.2011, 15:18
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Re: 6 year old marched out of the class by the scruff of his neck

I think teachers who enjoy teaching and are not afraid of troubles, rarely get those troubles. The minute students figure out there is room for button pushing (they will always try, the thing is not to be afraid of it, but expect it, since it is absolutely normal) and the teacher might be at the end of the rope or afraid, it's a lost game, and stressed people resort to formal power or physical nonsense. One can successfully use the energy of a little trouble maker very positively. At the end of the day, it is too much hustle to not prevent. Bored kids will always poke.
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  #54  
Old 06.07.2011, 15:27
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Re: 6 year old marched out of the class by the scruff of his neck

Definitely not right!!!!
And for all those who commented on the fact it did them no harm. What did they learn from the experience? That it's OK for an adult to show aggression towards children!!!! I wonder how they would feel if this was their child!! No child deserves to be treated in this manner, there are better, more professional ways to deal with misbehavior in the classroom.
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Old 06.07.2011, 16:00
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Re: 6 year old marched out of the class by the scruff of his neck

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Definitely not right!!!!
And for all those who commented on the fact it did them no harm. What did they learn from the experience? That it's OK for an adult to show aggression towards children!!!! I wonder how they would feel if this was their child!! No child deserves to be treated in this manner, there are better, more professional ways to deal with misbehavior in the classroom.
Oh for heaven's sake. We don't even know what really happened. No use getting overly emotional on this subject as long as we don't know the facts.
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Old 06.07.2011, 16:06
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Re: 6 year old marched out of the class by the scruff of his neck

I think if I was a teacher, I would set up a full-size mock-up of a guillotine at the front of the class. Complete with bloodstains and stuff. That'd scare the little fookers.
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Old 06.07.2011, 16:13
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Re: 6 year old marched out of the class by the scruff of his neck

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I think if I was a teacher, I would set up a full-size mock-up of a guillotine at the front of the class. Complete with bloodstains and stuff. That'd scare the little fookers.
Only if it was a working model and you gave a demonstration
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Old 06.07.2011, 16:16
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Re: 6 year old marched out of the class by the scruff of his neck

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Only if it was a working model and you gave a demonstration
Oh yes, working and fully functional of course. Anyone got a melon?
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Old 06.07.2011, 16:20
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Re: 6 year old marched out of the class by the scruff of his neck

At last - Amen - some common sense.
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Oh for heaven's sake. We don't even know what really happened. No use getting overly emotional on this subject as long as we don't know the facts.
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Old 06.07.2011, 17:02
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Re: 6 year old marched out of the class by the scruff of his neck

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Oh for heaven's sake. We don't even know what really happened. No use getting overly emotional on this subject as long as we don't know the facts.
Welcome to EF.
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