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Old 06.07.2011, 18:11
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Re: 6 year old marched out of the class by the scruff of his neck

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Hmmm....unless you load up the class with so much work they have no time for the mischief. Unless you incorporate discipline in the way that does not make you the cop. You inspire kids to discipline themselves. You expect a lot, and they hardly ever disappoint, they are glad somebody expects a lot from them, since it is a priviledge.

You can only waste as much of the valuable teaching time as much you allow yourself. Kids are not worse than they were before. I don't think the standards are falling. I think some do not know how to prevent troubles fast, and in time.
I was growing up in the Uk in the middle of the debate of comrehensives vs. grammars and I spent two years in a comprehensive in one of the toughest parts of town, and also some more time in a grammar. What I can say is that I don't believe the teachers I had in the grammar were actually better teachers or more intelligent or the school was better equipped or there was any other external reason that the teaching should be better. I think objectively everything was the same. But effectively the teachers were able to spend more time teaching because they were spending less time doing discipline. More time teaching -> more stuff taught -> higher grades in exams -> more kids into universities -> impression that grammar school education is better than comprehensive (which as I explained above, it isn't). So that means the kids in underperforming schools who actually try to learn and don't cause trouble are being unduly held back by their unruly classmates. If these want to mess up their own future, fine, but to take away the future of their hard working classmates is exremely antisocial and damaging. Should 29 pupils have to suffer a poorer education so that one kid can play the clown? I think all schools should have more power to expel problem pupils. In fact they should do so for the interests of their other pupils.
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Old 06.07.2011, 18:29
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Re: 6 year old marched out of the class by the scruff of his neck

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I was growing up in the Uk in the middle of the debate of comrehensives vs. grammars and I spent two years in a comprehensive in one of the toughest parts of town, and also some more time in a grammar. What I can say is that I don't believe the teachers I had in the grammar were actually better teachers or more intelligent or the school was better equipped or there was any other external reason that the teaching should be better. I think objectively everything was the same. But effectively the teachers were able to spend more time teaching because they were spending less time doing discipline. More time teaching -> more stuff taught -> higher grades in exams -> more kids into universities -> impression that grammar school education is better than comprehensive (which as I explained above, it isn't). So that means the kids in underperforming schools who actually try to learn and don't cause trouble are being unduly held back by their unruly classmates. If these want to mess up their own future, fine, but to take away the future of their hard working classmates is exremely antisocial and damaging. Should 29 pupils have to suffer a poorer education so that one kid can play the clown? I think all schools should have more power to expel problem pupils. In fact they should do so for the interests of their other pupils.
I have never taught in a school that would try to keep students who wanted out or sabotaged, it's a very strange concept. Students so wanted to be in, so expulsion was the biggets threat, it worked really well. I have my super effective measures that I can't really share but my goal is to use them, in order to keep the class team efficiently working above the expectations and intact. No slowing down for misbehavior.

It's interesting what you wrote about underperforming schools and classes. Says more about management, common school policies (implementing goals they have to reach, how disciplines is looked at and worked with), admin, etc..

Why are we talking about schools...it's holidays
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Old 06.07.2011, 18:56
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Re: 6 year old marched out of the class by the scruff of his neck

Amogles exactly the point I always made on a one to one basis, first to the student/s involved, and secondly to the parents if it was decided to involve them as the situation was not improving despite all measures taken.
Fact is, so often the troublesome kids, once taken aside on a face to face basis were usually very responsive, and a bit of research showed that they often had to endure the unimaginable in their private/family lives- and bad behaviour was a form of ADD.
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Old 06.07.2011, 19:44
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Re: 6 year old marched out of the class by the scruff of his neck

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...What did they learn from the experience? That it's OK for an adult to show aggression towards children!!!!...
No, they learned that if you muck about with those in authority over you, it can be quite uncomfortable. Seems a valid lesson to me. Like "life is fundementally unfair" and "I am not the centre of the universe"* - eventually, everyone has to learn it. Better earlier than later - then you've longer to learn the art of subversion...

*That's because I am the centre of the universe.

It's definitely my experience that there's normally a good (or bad, I guess) reason why kids who are disruptive behave as they do. And by a) not tolerating that behaviour and b) by treating them with the utmost respect at all other times, they can change.
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Old 06.07.2011, 19:45
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Re: 6 year old marched out of the class by the scruff of his neck

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Sounds as though you've lived a somewhat sheltered life DB.
My daughter, a primary school teacher in a deprived part of south London was quite seriously hurt by a weapon-wielding five-year-old. and there were another 29 of the little bl*****s causing mayhem while all this was going on.
Teachers in the UK aren't allowed to touch the little tykes, even in self-defence.
More rubbish. The Education and Inspections Act 2006 gives teachers the right to use "reasonable force" to restrain pupils. Much like everyone else really. In my opinion discipline should never involve violence - kids aren't born violent, they learn it from those around them. School should be a place where children in deprived areas can come to avoid violence, as a sanctuary. Hopefully they'll learn techniques to deal with others through their teachers. I'm sorry your daughter was hurt but if she can't get the better of a five year old, then perhaps she should be teaching in a nice private school in the country.
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Old 06.07.2011, 20:16
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Re: 6 year old marched out of the class by the scruff of his neck

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More rubbish. The Education and Inspections Act 2006 gives teachers the right to use "reasonable force" to restrain pupils. Much like everyone else really. In my opinion discipline should never involve violence - kids aren't born violent, they learn it from those around them. School should be a place where children in deprived areas can come to avoid violence, as a sanctuary. Hopefully they'll learn techniques to deal with others through their teachers. I'm sorry your daughter was hurt but if she can't get the better of a five year old, then perhaps she should be teaching in a nice private school in the country.
Whilst I agree with your logic...however...

"Reasonable force"....There's the rub. What a person at the time thought was reasonable may well be denied by a jury or Judge or a tribunal on a bad day. The test of reason is flawed in that is is clarified after the fact by people that were not witness to the fact. It is such a clouded definition, you could ask 50 Judges and get 50 different interpretations with 50 different outcomes.

Acting in the heat of the moment in itself may not be reasonable, as it can be construed as rash with no time for reasoning given, but wholly appropriate with the desired outcome. Reason may dictate that "I did as his parents would have done..." , but unreasonable if the Parents beat the child.

At home, if you felt your life was threatened, reasonable force could mean anything leading up to the death of the assailant/intruder, after recent law changes... Reasonable changes with the times. The kid could have had a knife..."...but no reasonable Adult would have believed the kid would use it !!!" come the cries back in court.

The word is awful, vague and highly interpretive , in law. It gives no guidance.
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  #67  
Old 06.07.2011, 20:24
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Re: 7 year old marched out of the class by the scruff of his neck

Hopefully common sense would prevail. There is a huge difference between hitting a child, which would be deemed totally unacceptable in most case apart from self defense or another student defense in a dangerous situation- to quietly but firmly, walking a child out of a class- holding him/her by the top back of shirt/jumper - if said child is being disruptive to the rest of the class and refused to go out for a 'cooling off' period- which in my book, with my 30+ experience, can be appropriate in some cases. Of course the age of the child is to be taken into consideration (I taught 10-19 age group, later specialising in 6thForm. A 7 year old should have a good idea of what is or not acceptable in a classroom.

As said before, we DO NOT KNOW the exact facts, why and how this was done. So difficult to comment. The parent does have to ascertain said facts in order to make a decision on how to proceed.
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  #68  
Old 06.07.2011, 20:41
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Re: 7 year old marched out of the class by the scruff of his neck

It is difficult to comment, I agree. But we are not a jury, nor director of that school to have to give a super exact, valid opinion, carefully constructed, etc etc...Just pondering over these things might help OP to get some kind of perspective.

Somebody mentioned "heat of the moment", I think that's what is actually the worst bit of disciplining with force. Be it only verbal, or also physical, to show to the entire class that a professional gets worked up to the point of grabing the skin of the neck as I understood OP, is just simply unacceptable and dangerous. Punishment should never come in heat of the moment. Sounds like it was the teacher who needed a time out. I don't think it gives the lesson of proper life scenario, either, nor prepares kids for being justly corrected should they do something wrong in the future. Kids provoke to get a reaction, always. If the prof responds like an angry bull, he is being manipulated. It's not really him who is in control of the situation. Eventhough he is using his physical power (he is obviously stronger) it's the kids who provoked him and got him into this state of mind, who are in control. He is obviously not controlling himself.

We can be all relativist, and say, we can't comment, since we weren't there, the kid might have been exaggerating, the teacher might have this and that...but something tells me that is what OP had in mind when she asked for opinion. I give OP credit for letting us come up with whatever musings we see related.
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  #69  
Old 06.07.2011, 20:45
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Re: 7 year old marched out of the class by the scruff of his neck

Agreed, absolutely. What I am saying is that there are ways and ways of escorting a child out of a classroom, even holding the back of his jumper if he refuses. It could be that the teacher did NOT do this in a rough or angry manner, in the 'heat' of the moment. This could have happened after several warnings, and done in a calm but firm manner. We just don't know.

But I DO know that kids often will give their own slant on events- so they do not get told off by parents or by the headmistress/master. I hope Telandy will accept that it is important to ascertain the facts, before taking any action. It could well be that a meeting with the teacher will clarify things and hopefully lead to good teamwork between parents and school- to best support the child. As said before, if the reaction is negative and defensive- then of course the situation will be re-assessed.
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Old 06.07.2011, 20:58
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Re: 7 year old marched out of the class by the scruff of his neck

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Agreed, absolutely. What I am saying is that there are ways and ways of escorting a child out of a classroom, even holding the back of his jumper if he refuses. It could be that the teacher did NOT do this in a rough or angry manner, in the 'heat' of the moment. This could have happened after several warnings, and done in a calm but firm manner. We just don't know.

But I DO know that kids often will give their own slant on events- so they do not get told off by parents or by the headmistress/master.
I get you, it's true. As much as we can assume yes, OP wrote by the scruff of his neck which does not sound like a jumper to me. We do not know if it was done in anger, sure, but calmly grab somebody by their necks does not sound acceptible to me, either. I am not sure why we speculate so much. We have an OP who asked a simple question. Being pedantic to the point of telling her her kids are making things up, is not exactly helpful. I feel bad for parents who's kids seem to not settle too well within the local school system, more so since I am a huge advocate of public schooling.
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Old 06.07.2011, 21:08
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Re: 7 year old marched out of the class by the scruff of his neck

To clarify the facts and gauge the reaction of the teacher, is really not 'pedantic' - it just makes sense. Finding ways to diffuse the situation instead of making it worse, also, for all concerned, especially the child.
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Old 06.07.2011, 21:24
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Re: 7 year old marched out of the class by the scruff of his neck

I think teachers have a very difficult job these days, especially in the UK. When I was a kid we had respect for teachers and if they shouted at us we desreved it. I was caned on several occasions and it did not do me any harm even neighbours would give us a slap if we misbehaved.

Things have changed but there is nothing wrong with the right kind of discipline

I used to work with unemployed young kids and they are so clued up. They can treat us with disrespect but whoa and behold if you reprimanded them (not physically) you would be in court in no time!!

The onus should be on the parents for kids behaviour and not blame teachers or social workers etc.
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Old 06.07.2011, 21:26
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Re: 7 year old marched out of the class by the scruff of his neck

I think OP got answers alright. I give her credit to trust her own kids and their reporting skills, none of our biz to start questioning them.

My child was hit by a creche stagier, and banalizing it was not the way I wanted this to have it processed. I do not think that stagier will ever be aggressive towards another little kiddo.

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Old 06.07.2011, 21:34
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Re: 6 year old marched out of the class by the scruff of his neck

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More rubbish. The Education and Inspections Act 2006 gives teachers the right to use "reasonable force" to restrain pupils. Much like everyone else really. In my opinion discipline should never involve violence - kids aren't born violent, they learn it from those around them. School should be a place where children in deprived areas can come to avoid violence, as a sanctuary. Hopefully they'll learn techniques to deal with others through their teachers. I'm sorry your daughter was hurt but if she can't get the better of a five year old, then perhaps she should be teaching in a nice private school in the country.
Yes, one could possibly use 'reasonable force' if one was expecting to be attacked with a sharp weapon.
Just as you say ' school should be a place where children in deprived areas can come to avoid violence' which is probably why good teachers try not to employ the 'reasonable force' technique, even were it their right.
The child was found to have mental problems and is now in a special school, poor little blighter.
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Old 06.07.2011, 21:52
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Re: 7 year old marched out of the class by the scruff of his neck

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But I DO know that kids often will give their own slant on events- so they do not get told off by parents or by the headmistress/master. I hope Telandy will accept that it is important to ascertain the facts, before taking any action.
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I am not sure why we speculate so much. We have an OP who asked a simple question. Being pedantic to the point of telling her her kids are making things up, is not exactly helpful.
As it has been stated numerous times over the OP needs to acertain what actually happened.
I don't think anyone has said that her child is making things up but children (not all but most) do have a way of wording things very differently to the way adults do which gives the "event" a different twist.
Telandy needs to talk to the teacher and then let us know the outcome.
Good luck and lots of strength to you Telandy.
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Old 07.07.2011, 00:35
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Re: 7 year old marched out of the class by the scruff of his neck

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..then let us know the outcome..
Exactly. Let's hope for that...
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Old 07.07.2011, 07:40
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Re: 7 year old marched out of the class by the scruff of his neck

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I think OP got answers alright. I give her credit to trust her own kids and their reporting skills, none of our biz to start questioning them. ...
Without disrespect to the OP, some parents "trust" their own kids even when they're lying little sods. Not a matter of trust, but rather defending their kids, right or wrong.

I trust my kids, but on occasion, they come home and tell me some story about how they've been woefully treated... and on further questioning we find it's not so one-sided as it initially seemed. Even the best of children (like mine ) put their own spin on things to make themselves look good and their opponents look bad. Even the best of adults, judging by the complaints forum here...
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Old 07.07.2011, 08:54
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Re: 7 year old marched out of the class by the scruff of his neck

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Without disrespect to the OP, some parents "trust" their own kids even when they're lying little sods. Not a matter of trust, but rather defending their kids, right or wrong.

I trust my kids, but on occasion, they come home and tell me some story about how they've been woefully treated... and on further questioning we find it's not so one-sided as it initially seemed. Even the best of children (like mine ) put their own spin on things to make themselves look good and their opponents look bad. Even the best of adults, judging by the complaints forum here...
I've had this conversation with my son recently; he's realised that mummy will fuss around with cuddles and lots of attention if he is hurt or scared. This has given rise to his clever little almost-5-year-old brain coming up with ways of exaggerating incidents and situations to cast himself in the "poor me" light. I know this because I've watched it happen. He's taken a swipe at some kid in the playground or pilfered their toy then been clobbered by them, then comes running over to me with "He hit me for no reason."

I've had to try to get him to understand that if he does this too much it will be difficult for me to believe him if he really is victimised.

Don't want to hijack this thread but how the hell do you put it across to a kid not to make up such stories whilst not destroying his belief that mum will back him up to the hilt whatever happens? I tried the "Boy Who Cried Wolf" story but it was still a bit abstract for him.
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Old 07.07.2011, 09:53
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Re: 7 year old marched out of the class by the scruff of his neck

He should have taken the example of my physics teacher and hurled a board rubber* at the child's head.

He could have then carried out the limp, unconcious child with ease.




*Do they still have those, or is it all PowerPoint and interactive touchscreens these days?
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Old 07.07.2011, 10:13
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Re: 7 year old marched out of the class by the scruff of his neck

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Don't want to hijack this thread but how the hell do you put it across to a kid not to make up such stories whilst not destroying his belief that mum will back him up to the hilt whatever happens? I tried the "Boy Who Cried Wolf" story but it was still a bit abstract for him.
erm... Why would you back your son up whatever happens? Next time he comes running, smile sweetly and carry on. If it's serious you'll still be hearing about it the next day.
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