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  #21  
Old 07.09.2011, 15:33
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Re: swiss husband's family insisting on an ehevertrag!

I'm in the "everything is joint" camp too but then I'm not Swiss and things are done differently here.
For example, parents aren't totally free to dispose of their property as they want due to forced inheritance rights.
Also properties don't always pass to children under a Will on the death of the parents - I have two lots of Swiss neighbours with elderly parents and the house has already been transferred to kids - possibly for tax reasons, I don't know.
On top of that, as Helm says, there is a high incidence of divorce and Smoky is right, many expect houses to stay in the family.

If anybody on this forum is professionally qualified to advise you then let them speak now. Otherwise please do what others have suggested and consult a lawyer. One of your choosing - not your husband's family. You can't begin to deal this until you have professional representation by someone who is lookng after your interests.
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Old 07.09.2011, 15:41
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Re: swiss husband's family insisting on an ehevertrag!

We've been married 18 months already, I'm from UK, he is Swiss. a registry office simple thing. We live 1st floor, parents in law 2nd.
i asked my H to organise a pre nup before we got married, if he felt it necessary and let him know I strongly disagreed about having one. we did not get one.
If it has to be, then ok, i guess that will make me a live-in help? do the garden, haying, oversee hol flat and renting of other appartments in same house but have nothing to my name despite any lifeblood i may have poured in myself? is that the law?
but does anyone know what i should get stipulated in said contract? i.e. in case of H's death and his parents death, yes i should have it written that i get lifelong usage. if our child at 18 decides to sell, i imagine i should be provided for out of the proceeds?
my H's only sibling is also insisting the house stays in the family. Once my H inherits the house and gives sibling the half share, they don't have any more rights do they? apart from first refusal on the house in case of selling.
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  #23  
Old 07.09.2011, 15:54
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Re: swiss husband's family insisting on an ehevertrag!

Im getting one, I already have a nice house in my name (and brother and sisters) but dont live in it . getting married in July but Im of the opinion everything before the marriage is yours, everything after is both.

Then again we still pay for groceries separately haha cause our diets are soooooo different. works for me and I like it that way
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  #24  
Old 07.09.2011, 15:55
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Re: swiss husband's family insisting on an ehevertrag!

That's usually where the fun starts... The house belongs to your husband and his sibling... what if he decides that he wants to sell his half, can you pay him out?

Whole families have collapsed because this sort of thing has not been sorted beforehand and the siblings fell over themselves fighting for their half or the money.
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  #25  
Old 07.09.2011, 16:09
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Re: swiss husband's family insisting on an ehevertrag!

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Or, as my wife says: "What's your's is mine, what's mine's my own"
Mods should add a button allowing multiple "likes".... PaddyG, you made my afternoon with this one....Lol
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  #26  
Old 07.09.2011, 16:28
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I'm currently going through the same thing, so let me comment from the other side.

My hubby's dad and uncle own property in CH, and it's all going to him (where the value will eventually be shared with his brother; eventually it will be passed to our respective children). If something happens to my hubby it will go back to his dad/uncle/brother until it can be passed to the children. Never will it come to mine or my SIL hands.

As a side, my father in law has proposed to pay for life insurance as well as mortgage insurance (or whatever you call it) with me as a beneficiary should something happen to my husband, I'll be taken care of as we own a house together, which will come to me.

I thought a lot about it when we first started talking, and it shouldn't bother me because it was never really mine or in my family to begin with. It's always been on his side and thats the way they want it to be so it's ok. I would probably feel the same if something from generations past was willed to me and could be taken away from a divorce and forced to be sold to pay out my other half.
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  #27  
Old 07.09.2011, 16:29
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Re: swiss husband's family insisting on an ehevertrag!

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We've been married 18 months already, I'm from UK, he is Swiss. a registry office simple thing. We live 1st floor, parents in law 2nd.
i asked my H to organise a pre nup before we got married, if he felt it necessary and let him know I strongly disagreed about having one. we did not get one.
If it has to be, then ok, i guess that will make me a live-in help? do the garden, haying, oversee hol flat and renting of other appartments in same house but have nothing to my name despite any lifeblood i may have poured in myself? is that the law?
but does anyone know what i should get stipulated in said contract? i.e. in case of H's death and his parents death, yes i should have it written that i get lifelong usage. if our child at 18 decides to sell, i imagine i should be provided for out of the proceeds?
my H's only sibling is also insisting the house stays in the family. Once my H inherits the house and gives sibling the half share, they don't have any more rights do they? apart from first refusal on the house in case of selling.
Whoa, steady on...

You're married. You have some 'default' rights and provisions made for you by virtue of being married and resident in Switzerland. There is no reason to sign additional contracts changing any of those conditions unless you want to. So don't let yourself be pressured. You may decide to go ahead in the end - or you may not - but it needs to be your fully-informed decision.


Did you marry in the UK, or in Switzerland? If you married in Switzerland, you had the option to specify division of property according to UK law (since one of you is a UK citizen) or according to one of the three major schemes I mentioned above. If you didn't specify, then by default your marriage will be according to Swiss law and "Errungenschaftsbeteilung."

If so, it means that your wealth (assets minus debts) is divided into four categories: your individual fortune, his individual fortune, your contribution to the marriage, his contribution to the marriage. Anything either of you inherits (i.e. The House) is counted as part of that person's "individual fortune", along with whatever assets each of you already had before marriage. Everything you earn while married is your "contribution to the marriage."

If the marriage ends through divorce: you keep your individual fortune, he keeps his, you add up both people's "contributions to the marriage" and split them 50-50.

If it ends because he dies: you do the same thing. His share (his "individual fortune" plus 50% of the combined "contributions") is then divided out according to his will. His will must leave you a minimum of 25% of the total estate, and the kids a minimum of 37.5% between them - anything more than that is up to him.

So if he dies, you have your whole share (individual fortune plus half your combined contributions) plus >25% of his share.

Whether or not that 25% takes the form of a house... well, who knows. If the estate is big enough, and he feels like it, he can leave the 25% to you in some other way (cash, stocks, whatever) and leave the house to the kids directly. That would solve the "problem" (such as it is) without any additional fuss.


My point is, this is how such a scenario would play out already, without any additional contracts. If the in-laws want to propose all sorts of extra legal flummery, then they should explain why it is a good idea, and you should figure out - with the advice of a lawyer - whether you agree. If not, don't sign: simple as that!
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  #28  
Old 07.09.2011, 17:39
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Re: swiss husband's family insisting on an ehevertrag!

Maybe they are worried that you would sell the house and it wouldn't be passed down to your daughter. Try talking to them about what their concerns are - why is this contract so important to them and what are they worried will happen?
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  #29  
Old 07.09.2011, 17:45
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Re: swiss husband's family insisting on an ehevertrag!

Very strange. Once they're dead and he inherits, it's his house, and he's free to do with it what he will. Your in-laws sound just plain odd.
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  #30  
Old 07.09.2011, 17:47
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Re: swiss husband's family insisting on an ehevertrag!

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If you have a shared wedding atm and he inherits the house, if you guys divorce you'd have the right to half of the value of the said house.
No, you wouldn't. Only in case of death. Inheritance is not communal property in Switzerland.

Tom

P.S. Ooops, I see MathNut said the same thing, but in better detail!
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  #31  
Old 07.09.2011, 17:48
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Re: swiss husband's family insisting on an ehevertrag!

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some keywords to look for are "Errungenschaftsbeteiligung", "Gütergemeinschaft", "Gütertrennung". These are the three standard schemes for determining what is 'yours, mine and ours' in a marriage. The first of these is the default if you got married in Switzerland, but you can write a contract at any time, even during the marriage, to change to a different one of these regimes or re-specify the details of what is considered individual vs. common property.
What are the differences between those?
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  #32  
Old 07.09.2011, 18:06
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Re: swiss husband's family insisting on an ehevertrag!

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What are the differences between those?
Errungschaftsbeteiligung:
In case of divorce any assets brought into marriage remain in possession of the one who brought them into the marriage (inheritance and amends are part of this category, too).

All assets that have been gained while married (expect inheritance and amends) are split between the partners.

Gütertrennung:
In case of divorce anything that was gained while married remains in the possession of the partner who gained it.

Gütergemeinschafft:
In case of divorce all the assets that are in possession of a married couple are split into two.



Errungenschafftsbeteiligung is the defaut case under Swiss civil law. Any regulation that is different from the defaut case (i.e. Errungenschaftbeteiligung) has to be defined in a marriage contract.
A marriage contract is only valid if it is publicly certified by a notary.
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  #33  
Old 07.09.2011, 18:10
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Re: swiss husband's family insisting on an ehevertrag!

I´m not a lawyer but instinct tells me that anything additional you will sign will limit not enhance your rights as a wife and mother. Quietly find out the impact of doing nothing. Then you can follow it as a strategy.

AYB
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  #34  
Old 07.09.2011, 18:36
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Re: swiss husband's family insisting on an ehevertrag!

I have heard of this, and from what I was told by someone who was writing their will the same way as your inlaws was that they were concerned that on death of their son their daughter in law could remarry, then she could die so "their" property could end up in the hands of a total stranger and not remain in the "family".
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Old 07.09.2011, 20:16
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Re: swiss husband's family insisting on an ehevertrag!

Why is everybody upset about this guy's parents' opinion ?

It's their house, they'd like to give it to the adult child (now, while they are still alive right?) and they want to protect the assets as to ensure that it remains in the family, no matter the case (divorce etc).

If their grandchild inherits, where is the problem ?

Sounds pretty straightforward, it's their house.
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  #36  
Old 07.09.2011, 20:30
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Re: swiss husband's family insisting on an ehevertrag!

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How does your husband feel about your relatives insistance? I'd've told mine to get stuffed.
It's the husbands relatives who are demanding this, not hers. Is it possible in Switzerland, to set up a family trust? That could allow you the right to live in the house at least until your children are independent.

I can understand someone wanting to avoid having a d in law ( or s in law) inherit - perhaps not because that person would benefit, but looking at the negative possibility of the son/daughter dieing before the s or d in law. , Then s or d in law remarries, perhaps to someone who already has children. .... they then get to benefit from the inheritance.

Trouble with that thinking though, is that there are endless scenario's of who dies first. At some stage, the one who is doing the original bequeathing, has to let go and realise that once they are dead, they need to let go of all control.
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Old 07.09.2011, 20:33
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Re: swiss husband's family insisting on an ehevertrag!

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It's their house, they'd like to give it to the adult child (now, while they are still alive right?)
I've read nothing to suggest that.

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and they want to protect the assets as to ensure that it remains in the family, no matter the case (divorce etc).
In the case of divorce, it normally would. Death, not.

Most reasonable would be uso-frutto, wife gets to live in it until her death, and the kid is guaranteed to get the house. Easy.

Tom
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Old 07.09.2011, 20:41
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Re: swiss husband's family insisting on an ehevertrag!

Perhaps I didn't understand correctly ?
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  #39  
Old 07.09.2011, 22:10
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Re: swiss husband's family insisting on an ehevertrag!

if it was me , I would tell them to shove their house up their arse, and buy your own. The last thing you want is to be beholden to your in-laws.

Your husband should understand this.

AYB
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Old 07.09.2011, 22:16
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Re: swiss husband's family insisting on an ehevertrag!

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if it was me , I would tell them to shove their house up their arse, and buy your own. The last thing you want is to be beholden to your in-laws.

Your husband should understand this.

AYB
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