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Old 14.09.2011, 00:12
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Re: Who owns my x-rays?

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You can surely have a fun game with this kind of thing. It's personally-identifiable information and thus, no matter what, I'd say belongs to the person it identifies.

I would say in the land of Hanspeter Thür that this is a done deal. You should either a) be able to get them or b) demand they're destroyed
It only identifies the individual in the hands of an expert. It's a tough call.
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Old 14.09.2011, 00:13
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Re: Who owns my x-rays?

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Source please.

There is no contract between the Dr and patient to supply the X-Rays.

Dentist "I need to take an X-Ray to get a better look"
Patient "Fine"


Ownership remains with the holder. There is no implied or otherwise transfer of title. Point of law please.

Anything else is wishful thinking.
It's what I have been doing for the past 38 years. I am the guy who shoots the pictures, develops them (or has them developed by his staff), assesses them, makes the diagnoses and treatments based on them, stores them, hands them out to patients on request and, besides all that, reads all the articles in dental magazines covering the legal aspects of doing such. There was quite a debate between old-school dentists and lawyers in the seventies and early eighties. Sorry, I don't remember all the legal details because I'm too busy doing all the stuff above, but the courts very clearly settled the matter.

Hope this is good enough a source.
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  #23  
Old 14.09.2011, 00:15
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Re: Who owns my x-rays?

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It's what I have been doing for the past 38 years. I am the guy who shoots the pictures, develops them (or has them developed by his staff), assesses them, makes the diagnoses and treatments based on them, stores them, hands them out to patients on request and, besides all that, reads all the articles in dental magazines covering the legal aspects of doing such. There was quite a debate between old-school dentists and lawyers in the seventies and early eighties. Sorry, I don't remember all the legal details because I'm too busy doing all the stuff above, but the courts very clearly settled the matter.

Hope this is good enough a source.
Not really

A published article , precedent or ruling would be nice to end the debate. Until then, I remain , respectfully , unconvinced.

Just to clarify, we are talking about ownership , as per the OP, and not the right to a copy of them.

Remember, the Dentist has paid for the equipment, the film and the processing. He retains ownership of all materials. (Proof of purchase/Title). As I said before, there is no contract to hand over X-Rays, but there may exist a certain right to get a copy of them.
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Old 14.09.2011, 00:18
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Re: Who owns my x-rays?

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It only identifies the individual in the hands of an expert. It's a tough call.
So do the personally-identifiable aspects of your fingerprint - but a recreational centre that wanted to use fingerprints rather than membership cards went through a 2-year fight with Hanpi and lost.

Only in the hands of an expert is still personally-identifiable - trust me, between here and Germany, this stuff is a nightmare.
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  #25  
Old 14.09.2011, 00:23
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Re: Who owns my x-rays?

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So do the personally-identifiable aspects of your fingerprint - but a recreational centre that wanted to use fingerprints rather than membership cards went through a 2-year fight with Hanpi and lost.

Only in the hands of an expert is still personally-identifiable - trust me, between here and Germany, this stuff is a nightmare.
Which is silly, because you do not store fingerprints, you store a hashed value of certain points on the print, enough to match up with a second fingerprint read, but nothing that would uniquely identify the individual if exposed under normal cirumstances. No program/computer entry system analyses the whole print , and has no need to store the print whatsoever.

Strange ruling.
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Old 14.09.2011, 00:27
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Re: Who owns my x-rays?

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Which is silly, because you do not store fingerprints, you store a hashed value of certain points on the print, enough to match up with a second fingerprint read, but nothing that would uniquely identify the individual if exposed under normal cirumstances. No program/computer entry system analyses the whole print , and has no need to store the print whatsoever.

Strange ruling.
don't think of just the template, think of the contact forced by making people put their finger on the reader and leaving the print plus other residue and indicators.

it's not like I don't agree with you, it was a pain in my ass for two years and I don't even work in the darn place they were "processing".

oh and it's the fact that you are storing someone else's personally-identifiable data too, nearly forgot that bit. No matter what kind of expert you need to make information out of that data.

we discussed it at length many times, trust me.
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Old 14.09.2011, 00:49
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Re: Who owns my x-rays?

Just to post another analogy... You do not ask a car mechanic for his tools after he has fixed your car. They are tools of the trade , owned by the mechanic. Similarly , a dentist needed the X-Rays to resolve your the dental problem with the patient. In both cases , the customer pays for a service and can not expect to walk out with anything in his hands.
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Old 14.09.2011, 00:51
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Re: Who owns my x-rays?

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Not really

A published article , precedent or ruling would be nice to end the debate. Until then, I remain , respectfully , unconvinced.
I'm sorry, those articles were published about 30 years ago, when the courts toppled the old practice. Because matters have been handled that way ever since, most of those old magazines either went to the paper collection of the local primary school or are stored in neatly taped cardboard boxes in my basement, where I will leave them until they go to the paper collection too.

By the way, those courts also ruled that normally the dentist is responsible for the safe storage of the pictures and that they should be handed to the patient only if need be, for instance for taking them abroad. If, for instance, the patient decides to see another dentist, the new practice normally calls the old one to have the pictures sent, often, if necessary, together with copies of the patient's record. Instead of the original pictures, copies can be sent. But it was clearly stated that the patient is the owner of the original pictures.

I hope you can live with your being unconvinced.
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  #29  
Old 14.09.2011, 00:55
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Re: Who owns my x-rays?

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I'm sorry, those articles were published about 30 years ago, when the courts toppled the old practice. Because matters have been handled that way ever since, most of those old magazines either went to the paper collection of the local primary school or are stored in neatly taped cardboard boxes in my basement, where I will leave them until they go to the paper collection too.

By the way, those courts also ruled that normally the dentist is responsible for the safe storage of the pictures and that they should be handed to the patient only if need be, for instance for taking them abroad. If, for instance, the patient decides to see another dentist, the new practice normally calls the old one to have the pictures sent, often, if necessary, together with copies of the patient's record. Instead of the original pictures, copies can be sent. But it was clearly stated that the patient is the owner of the original pictures.

I hope you can live with your being unconvinced.
Surely you can dig up an article on the Internet though ? 30 year experience must have you affiliated with some online sources of information.

I tried Googling, and all results only cemented my original thoughts. The Dentist owns the X-Rays. As personal data, the patient has a right to a copy.


Here is a good debate...Draw your own conclusions, it really is a grey area (no pun(s) intended).

http://ask.metafilter.com/33217/Who-owns-your-Xrays
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  #30  
Old 14.09.2011, 01:12
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Re: Who owns my x-rays?

XRays are not creative expression nor original. It is a functional item and functional items are not copyrightable.
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Old 14.09.2011, 01:21
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Re: Who owns my x-rays?

I assume in this thread we are talking about films only.

I mention this because the dentist I visit uses only digital xrays. They can put the images on a CD if need be and they can be viewed on a computer.

Many doctor's offices are also using digital xray technology. The advantage is the information can be shared with a specialist, for example. The xrays can be printed out on photo paper if need be.
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Old 14.09.2011, 01:23
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Re: Who owns my x-rays?

Upthehatters2008 - I think you are going to ultimately lose this debate (based on my analysis) but I admire your stringent requirement for the source documents.

Stick with it, and before I die, I will supply you with the relevant Swiss law (unless someone beats me to it).

By the way, I suspect that some people are referring to laws other than Swiss law.
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  #33  
Old 14.09.2011, 01:34
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Re: Who owns my x-rays?

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Upthehatters2008 - I think you are going to ultimately lose this debate (based on my analysis) but I admire your stringent requirement for the source documents.

Stick with it, and before I die, I will supply you with the relevant Swiss law (unless someone beats me to it).

By the way, I suspect that some people are referring to laws other than Swiss law.
The OP asked "Who owned them ?", the answer is simple, the dentist. Must he supply copies - Yes.

To the other poster, they are copyrightable, as there is artistic expression, based on the settings of the machine, the angle of the camera etc. although, there are stronger precedents for title rather than copyright. Possession is 9/10ths of the law as they say. The dentist paid for all the materials and (AND) did not enter into any contact to supply the X-Rays. There is absolutely no grounds to justify that the OP paid for the title/ownership. I would suggest all the OP did was agree to the X-Ray being taken to aide the dentist. No sale was agreed.
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Old 14.09.2011, 01:37
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Re: Who owns my x-rays?

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I assume in this thread we are talking about films only.

I mention this because the dentist I visit uses only digital xrays. They can put the images on a CD if need be and they can be viewed on a computer.

Many doctor's offices are also using digital xray technology. The advantage is the information can be shared with a specialist, for example. The xrays can be printed out on photo paper if need be.
Yes, the OP's question was who owns the X-Rays. Interesting point though. Once digitised, the X-Rays are on a hard disk, does the patient have a right to the hard disk ? No... to the original X-Ray film...? No... To copies...? Yes.
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Old 14.09.2011, 01:45
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Re: Who owns my x-rays?

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Surely you can dig up an article on the Internet though ? 30 year experience must have you affiliated with some online sources of information.

I tried Googling, and all results only cemented my original thoughts. The Dentist owns the X-Rays. As personal data, the patient has a right to a copy.


Here is a good debate...Draw your own conclusions, it really is a grey area (no pun(s) intended).

http://ask.metafilter.com/33217/Who-owns-your-Xrays
Come on UTH, that's just a last ditch effort, isn't it? You can't bring up an American forum covering American matters to tell us how these things are handled in Switzerland. It's late, I know.

As for using the Internet for such issues, you must know that, contrary to common belief, not everything is available on the Internet. For instance, I don't think the Bulletin für Standesfragen of the Swiss Dental Association (SSO) is accessible online anywhere, let alone issues from the seventies and eighties. That's where that kind of stuff was reported and discussed, and that was the only and ultimate source of knowledge for all dentists in Switzerland. Try to google it. Good luck.
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  #36  
Old 14.09.2011, 01:46
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Re: Who owns my x-rays?

However

Were the bill from the dentist to include itemised line items such as "X-Ray film" one could easily argue this constitutes the sale and thus transfer of ownership of the film. But the bill could easily detail "X-Ray Service" or "X-Ray required". A crucial point methinks, the OP should examine the bill.
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Old 14.09.2011, 01:51
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Re: Who owns my x-rays?

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Come on UTH, that's just a last ditch effort, isn't it? You can't bring up an American forum covering American matters to tell us how these things are handled in Switzerland. It's late, I know.
It was food for thought, I have previously posted my own assumptions...

Do not look into Dental Law,this is easily covered under possession or copyright laws, also contract law, sale laws etc.

Crucially, ask yourself, was there any agreement or contract between the two parties to exchange the film for payment ? I think not. This is corroborated by the fact that the OP left the X-Rays there in the first place, were there a contract to supply, the OP would have asked for them then and there. There is no contract to supply.
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Old 14.09.2011, 02:00
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Re: Who owns my x-rays?

Because it's insomnia time again, and I had nothing better to do... Googling 'Wem gehören Röntgenbilder?' brings up the following:

http://beratung.beobachter.ch/extern...07bd6195f49909

Eigentümer der Röntgenbilder ist der Patient respektive die Patientin. Deshalb haben sie ein Recht darauf, dass der Arzt die Originalbilder jederzeit aushändigt, und zwar entschädigungslos.

Gesetzesartikel: OR 400.


The owner of the x-rays is the patient. The patient has the right to be given the original pictures at any time, cost free. OR 400 is the law cited.

Further:

http://www.gesundheitstipp.ch/themen...Roentgenbilder

Patientenrecht - Wem gehören die Röntgenbilder?
Auf Grund des Auftragsverhältnisses hat der Arzt Ihnen gegenüber eine Rechenschafts- und Ablieferungspflicht. Demnach ist er verpflichtet, alles, was er für seinen Patienten erarbeitet, herauszugeben. Befürchtet der Arzt, er könne später wegen eines Behandlungsfehlers zur Rechenschaft gezogen werden, muss er sich auf eigene Kosten Kopien erstellen.

Anders in öffentlichen Spitälern: Hier darf der Patient nur Kopien verlangen und muss in der Regel eine Gebühr entrichten. Argumentiert wird in diesem Fall mit der Dokumentationspflicht des Spitals.



Exception for public hospitals - here the patient may request a copy, and generally must pay a fee for that. The rationale is this case is the record keeping requirement of public hospitals.

---

Caveat: I am neither a lawyer nor a medical professional - only an insomniac with a keyboard.

.

Last edited by meloncollie; 14.09.2011 at 02:16.
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  #39  
Old 14.09.2011, 02:20
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Re: Who owns my x-rays?

Glad to stand corrected. Nice move switching to German in Google.

<looks for towel to wipe egg of face>
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Old 14.09.2011, 02:39
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Re: Who owns my x-rays?

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Were the bill from the dentist to include itemised line items such as "X-Ray film" one could easily argue this constitutes the sale and thus transfer of ownership of the film. But the bill could easily detail "X-Ray Service" or "X-Ray required". A crucial point methinks, the OP should examine the bill.
There is nothing to be examined. The items in the bill refer to x-ray pictures of various kinds, and it's a matter of contracts between the parties (SSO, Santésuisse, federal authorities and dental technicians' associations) that regulate the matter. The fact that the patient is the owner is based on verdicts by various courts and does not need explicit regulation, let alone laws.

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Do not look into Dental Law,this is easily covered under possession or copyright laws, also contract law, sale laws etc.
There is no such thing as a dental law in this country. Yes, copyright laws may come into the picture to some extent, but you may know that it is a very tricky matter, not only in Switzerland. Remember the SONY logo debate or the ARD logo in Germany? Both have nothing to do with x-ray pictures in Switzerland, but they show how far opinions on what is copyrightable can differ.

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Crucially, ask yourself, was there any agreement or contract between the two parties to exchange the film for payment ? I think not. This is corroborated by the fact that the OP left the X-Rays there in the first place, were there a contract to supply, the OP would have asked for them then and there. There is no contract to supply.
You do not need a contract for everything.

Keep simple things simple. There are enough lawyers to make them complicated.
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