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Old 03.10.2007, 10:57
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divorce is depressing

hi all!

Thanks for this forum. It looks quite cool and full of information.

I have a couple of questions that perhaps someone here could help me out on. It's about divorce and it's depressing, but I really need some advice.

My wife and I are looking to split up (divorce) after 22 years of a rather rocky marriage. We had our good times, lots of bad times, but it's time to call it because of irreconcible differences. There are no third parties involved, no physical abuse, any of that stuff. We just have our differences.

As the husband in this relationship, I provided very little to the financial well-being of our 4 children, not because I didn't want to, but because I had very little financial resources. I did and do give my kids money when I have it. I also devoted myself to bringing up the kids, (stay-at-home dad) while my wife worked day and night in her restuarant over the past 20 years. Suffice it to say that she is wealthy and has accumulated a number of properties during our time together.

My question is: What am i entitled to should we divorce? Everything she owns is in her name and her father and my wife had me sign a 'separation of property agreement' just after we got married. (unbeknowst to me, I was told to sign this legal document in German because it would 'protect' my wife)

Anyway, after 20 years of what i consider to be reasonable devotion to my wife and kids, she informs me that I'm out and I'm not getting squat...

Do I have any hope of getting anything so I can go away and start a new life?

Thanks for any tips or advice!

john
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Old 03.10.2007, 11:03
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Re: divorce is depressing

Hi John,

Sorry to hear your going through this horrible experience. I'm afraid I can't offer you any advice regarding your question but I just wanted to offer my support as I have been there and done that with divorce. If you ever want someone to chat to then feel free to PM me.

Keep your chin up and good luck

Mel
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Old 03.10.2007, 12:08
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Re: divorce is depressing

Mel

Thanks for the quick and kind reply it's appreciated!

i'd shoot you a pm, but i'm afraid you'd be there for a month reading it

all the best to you too!
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Old 03.10.2007, 12:24
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Re: divorce is depressing

Just sent you a PM.
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Old 03.10.2007, 12:37
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Re: divorce is depressing

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hi all!

Thanks for this forum. It looks quite cool and full of information.

I have a couple of questions that perhaps someone here could help me out on. It's about divorce and it's depressing, but I really need some advice.

My wife and I are looking to split up (divorce) after 22 years of a rather rocky marriage. We had our good times, lots of bad times, but it's time to call it because of irreconcible differences. There are no third parties involved, no physical abuse, any of that stuff. We just have our differences.

As the husband in this relationship, I provided very little to the financial well-being of our 4 children, not because I didn't want to, but because I had very little financial resources. I did and do give my kids money when I have it. I also devoted myself to bringing up the kids, (stay-at-home dad) while my wife worked day and night in her restuarant over the past 20 years. Suffice it to say that she is wealthy and has accumulated a number of properties during our time together.

My question is: What am i entitled to should we divorce? Everything she owns is in her name and her father and my wife had me sign a 'separation of property agreement' just after we got married. (unbeknowst to me, I was told to sign this legal document in German because it would 'protect' my wife)

Anyway, after 20 years of what i consider to be reasonable devotion to my wife and kids, she informs me that I'm out and I'm not getting squat...

Do I have any hope of getting anything so I can go away and start a new life?

Thanks for any tips or advice!

john
Hi John, it all depends in what is in the separation of property agreement. Given the circumstances you can rest assured it cannot legally cover everything. But in any case you need to take that document to a lawyer and have him peruse the fine points. I can suggest one if you want who speaks English and is more than competent.
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Old 03.10.2007, 13:04
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Re: divorce is depressing

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Just sent you a PM.
much appreciated. thank you.
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Old 03.10.2007, 13:12
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Re: divorce is depressing

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Hi John, it all depends in what is in the separation of property agreement. Given the circumstances you can rest assured it cannot legally cover everything. But in any case you need to take that document to a lawyer and have him peruse the fine points. I can suggest one if you want who speaks English and is more than competent.
Hi Richard.

I have NO idea what is in the separtion agreement because it was written in german which i did not understand at the time. nor have i ever seen a copy since because my wife would not provide me with one... (i just asked her a minute ago if she could perhaps get me one and she looked at me like i'm crazy)

anyway, thanks for the advice!

i do need a lawyer, one who speaks english (hahaha) and if you know of someone in the wallis canton, i'd be grateful!

thanks!

john
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Old 03.10.2007, 13:29
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Re: divorce is depressing

John

I really feel for you. This is a rotten situation and your wife is being completely unfair.

You need to get a copy of that "agreement". So what if she looks at you like you have gone crazy?? That was a very effective defence she had, wasn't it? One look from her and you drop the matter.

She's holding all the cards and isn't giving you any chance to make this a fair fight.

If you get yourself a lawyer as soon as possible, he should be able to demand a copy from her.

I don't know of any English speaking lawyers in your area but I think it would be harder to find a lawyer in Switzerland who doesn't speak English.

Good luck, John. Also: be careful how much you say online. Tempting as it might be to vent your spleen, you don't want to say anything that her lawyers might be able to use against you.
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Old 03.10.2007, 13:34
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Re: divorce is depressing

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<snip> (i just asked her a minute ago if she could perhaps get me one and she looked at me like i'm crazy)

anyway, thanks for the advice!

i do need a lawyer, one who speaks english (hahaha) and if you know of someone in the wallis canton, i'd be grateful!
This is where you need to get communicating.

Your wife will be a stranger to you in a matter of a few years and likely married to someone else. So, if looking at you as if you are crazy means she will walk away with the lot, you can kiss goodbye to everything and make your way to that squat.

You signed the document. You should have had a copy and had it checked before signing. Don't make another mistake now and make up for what you didn't do 22 years ago: tell her you are serious and ask for a copy now.
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Old 03.10.2007, 13:39
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Re: divorce is depressing

what AbFab said.
get that document STAT.

good luck
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Old 03.10.2007, 13:52
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Re: divorce is depressing

Hi John,

I'm sorry to hear about your situation. My friend works for a lawyer in Monthey who speaks French & German. Not sure about English, but, I'll ask.
I wonder if these documents are "deposited" at the "etat civil". Maybe you could get a copy there? I'm sure your lawyer will be happy to contact her to get a hold of a copy!

Good luck. Hang in there!

Last edited by miniMia; 03.10.2007 at 15:13. Reason: corrected city!
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Old 03.10.2007, 13:56
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Re: divorce is depressing

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Hi Richard.

I have NO idea what is in the separtion agreement because it was written in german which i did not understand at the time. nor have i ever seen a copy since because my wife would not provide me with one... (i just asked her a minute ago if she could perhaps get me one and she looked at me like i'm crazy)

anyway, thanks for the advice!

i do need a lawyer, one who speaks english (hahaha) and if you know of someone in the wallis canton, i'd be grateful!

thanks!

john
Well then it is really rather simple. If she is looking to use this document as the way to stop a 50/50 split then she better produce it otherwise you will be asking for 50% of everything she has plus 50% of her pension. Maybe telling her that will change her tune. Without that document that is exactly what you are entitled to. Granted property or monies bequeathed to her are excluded but I guess the majority of her wealth has been earned while you were a pair and that is then open to being shared. The chances of this document actually excluding all future earnings is actually remote and that is probably why she wants to keep it from your eyes. Also note that in the last 22 years the law has changed and I question fully the validity of the document anyway, although it is a strong argument. Note also ignorance is no defence in the eyes of the law so your not understanding what you signed is your problem not hers. Point here is that you have a legal right to that document and if she is not prepared to provide a copy to anyone then legally it does not exist which by the way is also a possibility ie she has lost it, in which case it does not exist. German end of Wallis lawyers are a bit out of my scope...
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Old 03.10.2007, 14:02
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Re: divorce is depressing

I agree with Richard, that sounds very logical.

Do not do the same mistake - you do have rights, it is up to you to exercise them.


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Well then it is really rather simple. If she is looking to use this document as the way to stop a 50/50 split then she better produce it otherwise you will be asking for 50% of everything she has plus 50% of her pension. Maybe telling her that will change her tune. Without that document that is exactly what you are entitled to. Granted property or monies bequeathed to her are excluded but I guess the majority of her wealth has been earned while you were a pair and that is then open to being shared. The chances of this document actually excluding all future earnings is actually remote and that is probably why she wants to keep it from your eyes. Also note that in the last 22 years the law has changed and I question fully the validity of the document anyway, although it is a strong argument. Note also ignorance is no defence in the eyes of the law so your not understanding what you signed is your problem not hers. Point here is that you have a legal right to that document and if she is not prepared to provide a copy to anyone then legally it does not exist which by the way is also a possibility ie she has lost it, in which case it does not exist. German end of Wallis lawyers are a bit out of my scope...
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Old 03.10.2007, 14:02
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Re: divorce is depressing

Ok, its not "that" simple and also is painful. You are not entitle to anything that has to do with property and good (assets). You signed the document. But! Because you provided care for and your wife (hopefully) a richer person since she started to work, you are entitled to the time you work. The way to decide this is with a lawyer and an appraicer. I recommend (REALLY I DO!) try to reconcile a number before you start hiring, because lawyers and apraicers are VERY expensive (sometimes 300-500 an hour) plus a lot of headaches.
I understand you dont want to, but you should ask for help from your ex. So you can decide that lawyers arent the best alternative.
Good luck mate
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Old 03.10.2007, 14:07
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Re: divorce is depressing

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Ok, its not "that" simple and also is painful. You are not entitle to anything that has to do with property and good (assets). You signed the document. But! Because you provided care for and your wife (hopefully) a richer person since she started to work, you are entitled to the time you work. The way to decide this is with a lawyer and an appraicer. I recommend (REALLY I DO!) try to reconcile a number before you start hiring, because lawyers and apraicers are VERY expensive (sometimes 300-500 an hour) plus a lot of headaches.
I understand you dont want to, but you should ask for help from your ex. So you can decide that lawyers arent the best alternative.
Good luck mate
Just one question, did you draft this mystery document and perhaps do you actually have a copy? Because if you do not how can you be so sure that he is not entitled to anything? Furthermore, whatever is in that document cannot overwrite Swiss law which is effectively what you are stating... But anyway...
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Old 03.10.2007, 14:31
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Re: divorce is depressing

For the benefit of the search function, the german name for this document is a Gütertrennung . It is a legally binding document similar to prenuptial agreements in the english-speaking world .Everything Richard has said so far is correct ... the validity of this document could have been comprimised by its formulation as well as changes in Swiss laws. Its validity could be anulled if your wife refuses to give your legal representation a copy.

Until you or your legal reps obtain and decipher this document, all other discussion is practically academic in regards to your entitlements.
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Old 03.10.2007, 17:50
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Re: divorce is depressing

http://www.anwaltvergleich.ch/anwalt...nwalt-5901.htm
http://www.oavs.ch/view_all.php?id=180

Regarding lawyers, this guy is my Wife's uncle and his office is in Brig. I can't testify to his rates or his abilities as a lawyer, but he is a nice friendly guy Worth a call anyway.

I really hope it works out for you. Never nice seeing somebody get a raw deal.
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Old 03.10.2007, 20:59
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Re: divorce is depressing

i would really like to thank all of the people who have posted a comment here.

and i will pm you privately 'cause i'm a little bit stressed here right now to respond in kind to each of you

i now have a copy of the agreement and my question would be: if i can pm somebody, could they please tell me what it says (just a couple of paragraphs... in german).

i appreciate that maybe somebody here understands a legal contract written in german better than me...

thank you for your help and patience and i wish you all a schone abend! (ja, ich weiss... falsch gescreibt)
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Old 03.10.2007, 21:27
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Re: divorce is depressing

The amount of 2. Säule pension which has been accumulated by both parties during the marriage is not affected by a Gütertrennung. The sum will be split 50-50. The pension funds have a duty to provide a formal estimate of this sum to the holder of the pension fund and the court (who will then, presumably, ensure that both parties get their share).

I got this from the book "Trennung & Scheidung", available via www.saldo.ch for Fr.25. I'd send you mine but I need it at the moment

Good luck, I hope it goes well for you!
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Old 03.10.2007, 21:43
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Re: divorce is depressing

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For the benefit of the search function, the german name for this document is a Gütertrennung .
thank you litespeed!

ok..., i've got the doc in my hand (yes!! and i don't understand a lot of it,) but the title is:

EHEVERTRAG

so...

am i missing something?

that's it: ehevertrag... which to my mind means: marriage contract...

which is probably the same: i should not have signed it!
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