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  #81  
Old 16.11.2011, 17:33
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Re: How much is too much?

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This is a very interesting thread.

I think that as long as you can still talk to each other not everything is lost yet.

My realtionship with MG's SIL almost broke a year ago after we had our stillborn son. The reason for that was that we both grieved seperately, and differently, and we both thought it was our fault that it happened. It took me a while to see how bad he felt, I was totally self-centered at that time.

Everything out-of-the-ordinary can damage a relationship, but the worst part is when you stop talking or you don't tell you partner what you feel.

I think you are on a good way for now, flyingfox and I hope the best for you.

On a lighter side, I didn't know men would feel unattractive after the arrival of a baby, I thought it was more the woman's part (I'm still fat! I can't fit into my jeans! I don't have time to shower and put make-up on! I don't fit into my nice clothes! There is puke all over my tops! I don't have time to go to the hairdresser!)
Thanks for your kind supportive words, MacGregor's Daughter. I'm really glad that you and your OH found your way back to each other. This is exactly what I hope for me and my OH too. If you're dying for a wash and you baby wants cuddles all the time, maybe s/he would be happy lying on your chest in a warm (max 37 degC) bath? That was my saviour when my little one needed to cuddle all the time

I kinda wonder how men can feel unattractive after a baby... Their 'bits' are still intact at least . Though as it's been mentioned before, guys seem to get full of self pity and fear that the baby is more appealing / worthy of attention than they are. It takes a truly strong man to be a husband and father.

I really think mothers who look like they are a mother are truly beautiful - even with all that spew in places you never imaged you could have spew. Beauty is so much more than a nice hair do and frock etc. The loving gaze of a mother (or father for that matter) at their child - That's real beauty and it makes it all worth while.

FF
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  #82  
Old 16.11.2011, 17:36
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Re: How much is too much?

I admit having a hard time understanding the "flirting is natural" and "it's great to have random validation" camp, but it may be cultural thing. For me putting yourself in the mindset of saying something that will attract or tease a member of the opposite sex is a pretty tiring affair, especially if I'm in a relationship and it's not going to lead anywhere. My girlfriend is of the same mind, we both agree that if we're ever in a conversation with a member of the opposite sex who may be getting ideas, throwing in references to girlfriend/boyfriend tends suck the energy out of that pretty quickly. Unless you're just irresistable and have members of the opposite sex throwing themselves at you left and right, it's not that difficult. And if you're looking for constant validation, get a dog.

That said, one of my best friends, who is far from a prude, knows a South American/Italian couple and the guy constantly flirts with her with full knowledge of his SO. She tells her friend that it makes her uncomfortable, but her female friend laughs it off with "oh, those are just little seduction games!" But of course, casual seduction games! My reaction is WTF. If you're throwing sparks out everywhere like that, it's only inevitable a fire might start. But maybe that's ol' cold Ruskie me not understanding hot Latin passion.
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Old 16.11.2011, 17:45
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Re: How much is too much?

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Note to all the females on this thread ( only slightly tongue in cheek ):

Men are not interested in platonic relationships with women.
Unless you are gay (like me) and then platonic works best!!
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  #84  
Old 16.11.2011, 17:56
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Re: How much is too much?

I do think it has a lot to do with cultural background, Russkov. I'll never forget the look on some of my "foreigner" friends when they noticed Portuguese women greet by cheek kissing both women and men, and actually touch (not that silly willy kiss in the air sh!t).

I know my German in-laws freak out with the amount of body contact I am used to, which in their language is very much screaming "SEXUAL HARRASSEMENT!!!1111!!!! ALERT ALERT"

It's also very personal. I'm sometimes called rude or tomboy because I have no problems giving a guy a compliment (usually something a little bit better in the scale from the "hei, you, nice ass/boobs" from the working site guys).

It's maybe hard for some women to understand my point of view, but I am adamant on my point of view "I'm married, not dead!". It has to do with absolute trust in both my OH and myself.

I don't know, maybe I'm a little bit to liberal, because I was raised in a fierce catholic country/family which was ashamed of all that had to do with the naked body/sex, and therefore got as much distance as I could from strict, puritan, unhealthy points of view and went into art school to draw 1 million pictures of porn naked men and women. That and maybe an unhealthy dose of patience and understanding for things most people have no understanding for... Beats me.
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  #85  
Old 16.11.2011, 18:04
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Re: How much is too much?

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I admit having a hard time understanding the "flirting is natural" and "it's great to have random validation" camp, but it may be cultural thing. For me putting yourself in the mindset of saying something that will attract or tease a member of the opposite sex is a pretty tiring affair, especially if I'm in a relationship and it's not going to lead anywhere.
Interesting comment. I would have put myself into the "flirting is natural" and "it's great to have random validation" camp but then it occurred to me that I am not necessarily talking about trying to attract or tease someone of the opposite sex. I looked up "flirt" and "flirting" and the definitions all have to do with teasing and seduction etc. I guess what I think of as "ok flirting", and maybe this is what some others mean too, is more "charming". Before, I would have said that my OH is a flirt but actually it is more about charming people and having people respond positively to that charm. And I do mean people - not male or female. The validation is then "this person likes me" or finds me funny, or like my jokes, etc. It is this kind of behaviour that I think is "natural" and perfectly acceptable.

And you are right about the line being drawn when the other person is clearly getting the wrong idea. That is when flirting goes too far, although it has to be said that some people get the wrong idea if you just look too long at them. Does this mean I will have to be more careful about using the word "flirt" or do other people understand it in the way I do?
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Old 16.11.2011, 18:04
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Re: How much is too much?

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For me putting yourself in the mindset of saying something that will attract or tease a member of the opposite sex is a pretty tiring affair
i can't help it, it's just everything that i naturally say and do!
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Old 16.11.2011, 18:06
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Re: How much is too much?

Women overthink



men underthink



If it wasn't like that nothing would be any fun .
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  #88  
Old 16.11.2011, 18:11
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Re: How much is too much?

Alternative version:

Quote:
Her Diary
Sunday night I thought he was acting weird. We had made plans to meet at a
bar to have a drink. I was shopping with my friends all day long, so I
thought he was upset at the fact that I was a bit late, but he made no
comment.

Conversation wasn't flowing so I suggested that we go somewhere quiet so we
could talk, he agreed but he kept quiet and absent. I asked him what was
wrong - he said, "Nothing." I asked him if it was my fault that he was
upset. He said it had nothing to do with me and not to worry.

On the way home I told him that I loved him, he simply smiled and kept
driving. I can't explain his behavior; I don't know why he didn't say, "I
love you, too."

When we got home I felt as if I had lost him, as if he wanted nothing to do
with me anymore. He just sat there and watched T.V.; he seemed distant and
absent.

Finally I decided to go to bed. About 10 minutes later he came to bed and
to my surprise he responded to my caress and we made love, but I still felt
that he was distracted and his thoughts were somewhere else.

I decided that I could not take it anymore, so I decided to confront him
with the situation but he had fallen asleep. I started crying and cried
until I too fell asleep. I don't know what to do. I'm almost sure that his
thoughts are with someone else. My life is a disaster.

HIS DIARY
[Insert football team here] lost, but at least I got laid.
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  #89  
Old 16.11.2011, 18:23
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Re: How much is too much?

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I do think it has a lot to do with cultural background, Russkov. I'll never forget the look on some of my "foreigner" friends when they noticed Portuguese women greet by cheek kissing both women and men, and actually touch (not that silly willy kiss in the air sh!t).

I know my German in-laws freak out with the amount of body contact I am used to, which in their language is very much screaming "SEXUAL HARRASSEMENT!!!1111!!!! ALERT ALERT"

It's also very personal. I'm sometimes called rude or tomboy because I have no problems giving a guy a compliment (usually something a little bit better in the scale from the "hei, you, nice ass/boobs" from the working site guys).

It's maybe hard for some women to understand my point of view, but I am adamant on my point of view "I'm married, not dead!". It has to do with absolute trust in both my OH and myself.

I don't know, maybe I'm a little bit to liberal, because I was raised in a fierce catholic country/family which was ashamed of all that had to do with the naked body/sex, and therefore got as much distance as I could from strict, puritan, unhealthy points of view and went into art school to draw 1 million pictures of porn naked men and women. That and maybe an unhealthy dose of patience and understanding for things most people have no understanding for... Beats me.
None of what you describe necessarily constitutes flirting for me. Close physical contact and being forward doesn't bother me. I'm pretty direct and like joking around (too much for half the people I meet). For example, if a female friend of mine, or even an acquaintance I'm comfortable with is wearing something that makes her have huge cleavage, you better believe I'm going to joke and make references to it for the whole evening. I don't think this is flirting. Conversely, if we're at the swimming pool with friends and my girlfriend says a guy has nice looking abs, I couldn't care less. The fact that it is public and indiscreet makes it a tension killer, whereas flirting for me consititues sexual tension being created, which is just as often about keeping your mouth shut. The flirting in my friend's friends relationship was, for example, not being any space left at the table and the guy offering for her to sit on his lap. Stuff like that. I think that borders on creepy, but I guess that's why he has la pasión and I do not. I'll just stick to seducing women by hitting them over the head with a vodka bottle.
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Old 16.11.2011, 18:50
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Re: How much is too much?

other side of flirting....
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  #91  
Old 16.11.2011, 19:49
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Re: How much is too much?

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other side of flirting....
duly added to my chat-up lines book
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Old 16.11.2011, 20:03
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Re: How much is too much?

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Possibly an understatement. From my discussions with people who have had kids, in the first 5-6 years the effect is more like turning the world upside down...mostly in a positive way of course.

But kids change the relationship equation completely. where as before x + y = couple, now it's x + y + (sum of all kids) = Family.

Husbands generally cope less with the loss of attention and affection that comes with busy families...especially as such intimacy can be an important part of coping with stress, fatigue, age, and reassurance that they are still attractive to their partner. You'd be amazed just how much reassurance men need. Little efforts can make all the difference, but pro-active communication is probably the way to go.
Ahem, "mostly", except that sex goes out the window first couple of to several years after kid/s, especially in cultures where kids snuggle in with parents until they are fairly grown up.

That reminds me, is watching internet too much?
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Old 16.11.2011, 20:26
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Re: How much is too much?

If you believe barefoot running or unprocessed food is the correct way because that is how we have evolved, then I would argue you must also be more tolerant to males being promiscuous. I think there is a reason why males are biologically capable of impregnating dozens of women in a month and produce millions of sperm whereas a woman can produce max 1 egg a month. That's how it works in other mammals.

i obviously don't mean it literally, and for the record I have never gotten into anything hanky panky. I am just suggesting, perhaps the notion of marriage and fidelity is forcing against nature.
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Old 16.11.2011, 21:35
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Re: How much is too much?

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I'll just stick to seducing women by hitting them over the head with a vodka bottle.
Reminds me times when even that was unecessary..



It is cultural, for sure. It's funny how in an unrepressed, direct and pretty atheist culture - the explicit, out in your face and indiscrete is still considered a turn off. Matter of fact kinda ways is the way, comrades.

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Old 17.11.2011, 00:13
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Re: How much is too much?

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I kinda wonder how men can feel unattractive after a baby... Their 'bits' are still intact at least . Though as it's been mentioned before, guys seem to get full of self pity and fear that the baby is more appealing / worthy of attention than they are. It takes a truly strong man to be a husband and father.

I really think mothers who look like they are a mother are truly beautiful - even with all that spew in places you never imaged you could have spew. Beauty is so much more than a nice hair do and frock etc. The loving gaze of a mother (or father for that matter) at their child - That's real beauty and it makes it all worth while.

FF
Hello Fox,
When you have a quiet moment for yourself.. reread your sentiment.
You are definitely a lovely momma for sure.
But what place do you genuinely allocate to being a woman ?
The balance is fine and delicate, and it is vital for your relationship.

You had some doubts, and all the ladies (and few gents) validated, with different amounts of indignation, that you are right about your feeling and your discussions with Mr Fox, and yes, perhaps you are.

But how will that help you ?
Confrontation is not the way to go, and the issue is still there.
You're married to him, not the ladies on EF.

I will brazenly suggest a tad less devotion and adoration.
Nobody should be your everything (except your children)
Create your own world, your own persona, tastes, desires and dare to dream past your today.
Do not make him the center of your universe, (but rather a pleasant enticing companion to share with)
Take good care of your appearance
Maintain sexiness and sensuality and visuals
Keep him guessing
You have a mind, a heart and femininity.. use them
Be loving, kind and reassuring, but slightly unaccessible
and then wait....

when you've captured his full attention once more..
forgive him
he's just a man, another soul similar to yours, trying to find his way.

___________________

As for Karl, who inspired this thread (link on page 1)
I believe his issue is not with the pretty kitten with sharp claws or his lovely wife of many years, but simply with his own feelings.

It makes the tale of feeling, quite genuine and endearing, though I cringe at its very public nature.
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Old 17.11.2011, 01:45
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Re: How much is too much?

Re Flirting:
I never consciously flirt (what's the point)?

To Fox:
You are a wonderful person.
Your husband seems confused....

To Karl:
You love the office woman, sorry.
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Old 17.11.2011, 10:32
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Re: How much is too much?

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..(snip)...

To those who suggested couples counselling - do you know people where it actually worked? Don't strangle me for this but when I have been on dates with men who turned out to be married, the ensuing conversation (me: "why are you looking for fun when you are married?" him: "my wife is just totally wrapped up in her own world / not attracted to me any more / always nagging me / won't have sex with me since we've had kids") usually included them telling me that their wife had asked to go to counselling and then counsellor then basically blamed everything on the husband. So they went a few times to keep the peace but were disappointed with the experience.
Sorry I am back a bit late to the thread to respond to this question, but I just wanted to add that I have personally seen counseling work wonders for some couples' relationships while I have seen it do absolutely nothing for others. I think that there are several variables contributing to the success or failure, not the least of which is the counselor him/herself. Primarily I believe that the success or failure is contingent upon the true desires of the participants: whether they each believe that the relationship has the possibility of being salvaged and whether they have the ability to recall the feelings that seem to now be missing from the relationship.

A good counselor can listen and point out the ways in which communication between partners has been disrupted as well as the ways in which one partner may be hearing something completely different than what the other is actually saying, as in the example following:

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Women overthink



men underthink
A counselor can also give concrete assignments to the couple both as individuals and as a couple, that they can complete in order to foster better communication (both positive communication and negative) and also how to better share their feelings. If one person will not go, the other person can go alone and try to learn skills to make the relationship better along with what he or she is doing that is sabotaging the relationship. Then, he/she may put into practice some of the suggestions, which might be really noticable and might eventually spur the other person to take part as well.

In the cases I have been aware of where the counseling was most successful, both parties recognized their contributions to the downward trend in the health of the marriage, and I can understand how the men that you mention, Kittster, have a negative attitude toward it if they agreed to go then found themselves being blamed for everything. As such, the skills of the counselor and his/her ability to connect with both parties in order to foster trust and elicit honesty are crucial for success.
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Old 17.11.2011, 11:04
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Re: How much is too much?

I wonder what's for dinner tonight.
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Old 17.11.2011, 11:58
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Re: How much is too much?

If one feels one MUST flirt, why not flirt with your OH? You never have to be afraid of crossing the border..
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Old 17.11.2011, 12:18
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Re: How much is too much?

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If one feels one MUST flirt, why not flirt with your OH? You never have to be afraid of crossing the border..
If you're lucky. Before crossing that border you usually have to cross the customs of "I'm tired", "My head/back hurts", "Have to get up early tomorrow", "I'm thinking of a dead relative, not in the mood".
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