Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Family matters/health  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 16.11.2011, 23:33
Meisie's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Amriswil - Thurgau
Posts: 1,693
Groaned at 3 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 1,262 Times in 584 Posts
Meisie has a reputation beyond reputeMeisie has a reputation beyond reputeMeisie has a reputation beyond reputeMeisie has a reputation beyond reputeMeisie has a reputation beyond reputeMeisie has a reputation beyond repute
Tone deafness in pre-schooler

So whenever my 3 1/2 year old sings songs, she is really off key which is so cute and I love it but I've been wondering if she'll be tone deaf like her papa.

I've heard other children her age sing and they pretty much hit most of the notes so I was just wondering if you guys know if her little shrieking voice is here for good or if there is hope for the poor little thing.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Meisie for this useful post:
  #2  
Old 16.11.2011, 23:37
Longbyt's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: ZH
Posts: 8,130
Groaned at 57 Times in 53 Posts
Thanked 12,980 Times in 4,732 Posts
Longbyt has a reputation beyond reputeLongbyt has a reputation beyond reputeLongbyt has a reputation beyond reputeLongbyt has a reputation beyond reputeLongbyt has a reputation beyond reputeLongbyt has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tone deafness in pre-schooler

There's still hope for her, and you!
I know another kid who used to sing very out of tune at that age. Maybe someone told her about it once and for a long time she refused to sing along with other children at all. However, she sang when on her own and somewhere along the way things changed and now she sings in tune (and with the other kids at kindergarten!).
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Longbyt for this useful post:
  #3  
Old 16.11.2011, 23:40
ecb's Avatar
ecb ecb is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: out n about - it's summer!
Posts: 2,183
Groaned at 8 Times in 8 Posts
Thanked 3,527 Times in 1,311 Posts
ecb has a reputation beyond reputeecb has a reputation beyond reputeecb has a reputation beyond reputeecb has a reputation beyond reputeecb has a reputation beyond reputeecb has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tone deafness in pre-schooler

Oh there surely must be hope!

I do a lot of singing and a common thing that I hear many many singing instructors and conductors say is "there's no such thing as tone deaf". I can understand this in the sense that it is often used as an excuse for someone not wanting/thinking they are unable/too self conscious to sing, but in all honesty, there must be some conditions of the ear which would surely preclude you from hearing tones sufficiently to tune a melody.

She is very young. Very few children at this age either hold a melody or in singing the melody, apply the appropriate intervals (gaps) between the notes, meaning that by the end they are quite off key.

But would be interested as to why your husband is tone deaf? Is he just a self conscious non singer or is there an underlying condition? I have led singing groups with slightly older children and I generally find that even the most hardened untuned child can, with a little practice, hear the note and tune their voice to it .... eventually.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank ecb for this useful post:
  #4  
Old 16.11.2011, 23:48
Meisie's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Amriswil - Thurgau
Posts: 1,693
Groaned at 3 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 1,262 Times in 584 Posts
Meisie has a reputation beyond reputeMeisie has a reputation beyond reputeMeisie has a reputation beyond reputeMeisie has a reputation beyond reputeMeisie has a reputation beyond reputeMeisie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tone deafness in pre-schooler

Quote:
View Post
Oh there surely must be hope!

I do a lot of singing and a common thing that I hear many many singing instructors and conductors say is "there's no such thing as tone deaf". I can understand this in the sense that it is often used as an excuse for someone not wanting/thinking they are unable/too self conscious to sing, but in all honesty, there must be some conditions of the ear which would surely preclude you from hearing tones sufficiently to tune a melody.

She is very young. Very few children at this age either hold a melody or in singing the melody, apply the appropriate intervals (gaps) between the notes, meaning that by the end they are quite off key.

But would be interested as to why your husband is tone deaf? Is he just a self conscious non singer or is there an underlying condition? I have led singing groups with slightly older children and I generally find that even the most hardened untuned child can, with a little practice, hear the note and tune their voice to it .... eventually.
He was never aware of it before he met me
He says no such thing exists and I'm just making things complicated (dude does NOT hear what my poor ears have to suffer through ).
I suggested to him that he should go for singing lessons, which he was keen to do but he just does not have the time for that.

I don't think he's self conscious, he used to belong to a band* in his teens and was on lead vocals a couple of times so it might be an underlying condition. What do I know though, I'm not learned in this area at all!

* yeah, I've heard their "demo" (unfortunately) and its not surprising why they never made it big

Last edited by Meisie; 16.11.2011 at 23:50. Reason: Band info
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Meisie for this useful post:
  #5  
Old 16.11.2011, 23:49
Phil_MCR's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 14,188
Groaned at 275 Times in 181 Posts
Thanked 17,503 Times in 7,403 Posts
Phil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tone deafness in pre-schooler

Quote:
View Post
So whenever my 3 1/2 year old sings songs, she is really off key which is so cute and I love it but I've been wondering if she'll be tone deaf like her papa.
maybe it's genetic

maybe singing lessons and learning a 'tuned' instrument would help (marimba, piano etc. i.e. not violin)
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Phil_MCR for this useful post:
  #6  
Old 16.11.2011, 23:53
Meisie's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Amriswil - Thurgau
Posts: 1,693
Groaned at 3 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 1,262 Times in 584 Posts
Meisie has a reputation beyond reputeMeisie has a reputation beyond reputeMeisie has a reputation beyond reputeMeisie has a reputation beyond reputeMeisie has a reputation beyond reputeMeisie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tone deafness in pre-schooler

Quote:
View Post
maybe it's genetic

maybe singing lessons and learning a 'tuned' instrument would help (marimba, piano etc. i.e. not violin)
that's what I was thinking too.

I'll definitely be monitoring it over the years and if I see no improvement I'll see if she's interested in singing lessons at all.

I find it very amusing that her father cannot hear how terrible he sounds! It really is funny
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 16.11.2011, 23:58
ecb's Avatar
ecb ecb is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: out n about - it's summer!
Posts: 2,183
Groaned at 8 Times in 8 Posts
Thanked 3,527 Times in 1,311 Posts
ecb has a reputation beyond reputeecb has a reputation beyond reputeecb has a reputation beyond reputeecb has a reputation beyond reputeecb has a reputation beyond reputeecb has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tone deafness in pre-schooler

Quote:
View Post
He was never aware of it before he met me
He says no such thing exists and I'm just making things complicated (dude does NOT hear what my poor ears have to suffer through ).
I suggested to him that he should go for singing lessons, which he was keen to do but he just does not have the time for that.

I don't think he's self conscious, he used to belong to a band* in his teens and was on lead vocals a couple of times so it might be an underlying condition. What do I know though, I'm not learned in this area at all!

* yeah, I've heard their "demo" (unfortunately) and its not surprising why they never made it big
Mmmhh. Interesting. I remember with one little girl (about age 7) she kept singing loudly and enthusiastically and totally out of tune. At the end, I asked her to have a go at singing with me, next to the piano, on her own. She could not hear what was wrong. She sang what she thought was the tune, I sang the tune and played the piano melody at the same time but she still could not hear the difference. So instead I asked her to sing any note, then I played a chord on the piano to match the note. After a few goes of doing this she suddenly got it. I think she had never previously had the opportunity (because she was singing in groups) to hear her own voice and to hear what it sounded like when she sang in tune.

But I too am no expert and agree that there must surely be conditions which preclude someone from singing in tune, but rarer than the number of people who, like this little girl, simply do not sing in tune because they don't get what it is to sing in tune.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank ecb for this useful post:
  #8  
Old 17.11.2011, 08:39
swisspea's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: From one side of lake Zurich to the other...
Posts: 6,109
Groaned at 39 Times in 29 Posts
Thanked 6,023 Times in 2,804 Posts
swisspea has a reputation beyond reputeswisspea has a reputation beyond reputeswisspea has a reputation beyond reputeswisspea has a reputation beyond reputeswisspea has a reputation beyond reputeswisspea has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tone deafness in pre-schooler

My husband and father in law both sing flat. They just don't seem to hear the sound of their own voice. My husband also can't tune his guitar by ear, he can't discriminate the sounds fine enough or understand whether it's flat or sharp.

I can do it, but I don't know how I do it, it feels 'instinctive'.

On the other hand, my brother is a musician and music teacher, and teaches small children, and he says it's simply a learnt skill - he also believes that you can teach children to have 'perfect pitch' which in musical terms means being able to hear and name individual sounds - I'm inclined to agree.

As a teacher of small children (0-3) I would not worry too much about 'tone deafness' - she is going to copy the way her dad sings, and the way her mum sings, and later on you can send her for a few singing lessons and once she 'tunes in' to hearing her own voice, she will work it out.

It takes practice...

I have another friend who was *shockingly* tone deaf, and he was also a musician (played the flute not poorly)...and I remember sitting with him on the piano one day, and telling him to say 'aaaaah' with just whatever note he wanted, and I would match it on the piano. Every time we did this, he would change the note, it seems he just could not control his voice...once he heard other sounds, he could not 'remember' the sound he had been making with his own voice.

That reminded me of another kid I knew who had a learning difficulty, and was diagnosed with ADHD. As an older teenager he had a huge amount of psych testing done to get some recommendations of how to get him through academically, and they discovered that he cannot 'hold' a visual idea for more than a split second, so he could not look at the blackboard, read something, then look at his paper and write it down - his short-term memory had a structural problem - he's now finishing a PhD in medical science, with the help of computer technology - he takes all his notes 'aurally' and 'visually' but types in without having to look up and down...

Anyway, point is, she may be 'catching' her tone deafness from her dad, or it might be 'genetic' but either way it's a common problem, and certainly I would say the majority of 2-3 year olds sing 'tone deaf' because they don't actually have good voice control, and aren't really consciously aware of their own voices either...they just sing spontaneously...

Perhaps that's why we point out the ones that do 'sing' on key, because it's the exception rather than the norm...

Btw, my 12 year old daughter sings 'flat' like her father, but her rhythm is absolutely awesome (like her aunty who was a dancer/ballerina)...
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank swisspea for this useful post:
  #9  
Old 17.11.2011, 09:43
tildaoz's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Meilen
Posts: 621
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 576 Times in 284 Posts
tildaoz has earned the respect of manytildaoz has earned the respect of manytildaoz has earned the respect of many
Re: Tone deafness in pre-schooler

I teach lots of small children and I always include singing in my lessons for a few reasons. Number one is that just about all love singing purely because it is so enjoyable and a lovely release after a bout of more intense concentration.

But I also include it because kids learn so much about music through singing, whether they can sing on pitch or not. And each child is different when it comes to pitch, rhythm and so on. Children learn to sing through copying what they hear, so the more they do it the more confident and skilled they will become.

While there definitely are some grown ups who have a lot of trouble singing in key, including many who just can't hear whether they are on the note or not, I really think singing is a mix of innate ability and skill, which means that it can always be improved.

Sometimes learning to breathe properly helps with reaching a correct pitch, other times just at hearing different pitches or practicing hearing the intervals between notes helps, and so on.

But really, the key is to do as much singing as possible. I think the most important thing for children is that they never hear you say you think there is a problem with singing. That's why there are so many adults who say they can't sing. It's because someone told them that at some stage and they won't now believe otherwise.

I love that my daughter learns so many songs at school. It's such a wonderful way to build a community, to learn about customs and culture and to just enjoy yourself, whether the end result sounds great or not!
__________________
Music lessons in English: www.discovering-music.com

Writing and Research Skills Zürich: www.writingandresearchskills.com
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank tildaoz for this useful post:
  #10  
Old 17.11.2011, 10:09
ecb's Avatar
ecb ecb is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: out n about - it's summer!
Posts: 2,183
Groaned at 8 Times in 8 Posts
Thanked 3,527 Times in 1,311 Posts
ecb has a reputation beyond reputeecb has a reputation beyond reputeecb has a reputation beyond reputeecb has a reputation beyond reputeecb has a reputation beyond reputeecb has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tone deafness in pre-schooler

Tildaoz and Swisspea

Quote:
View Post

I love that my daughter learns so many songs at school. It's such a wonderful way to build a community, to learn about customs and culture and to just enjoy yourself, whether the end result sounds great or not!
But isn't that just the thing, whenever I hear children sing, the end result always sounds great (often because of the odd one or two singing off key!).
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank ecb for this useful post:
  #11  
Old 17.11.2011, 10:28
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Tone deafness in pre-schooler

Quote:
View Post
But isn't that just the thing, whenever I hear children sing, the end result always sounds great (often because of the odd one or two singing off key!).
Singing seems to be pretty good for learning and particularly pronouncing a foreign language, too, but this is purely a personal observation. I've been able to sing along with my son in a Swiss-German song and sound almost native

I know that there are benefits of singing when kids have got a stutter but I'd never really considered it as a language learning tool until we were merrily crooning out this recent song.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #12  
Old 17.11.2011, 11:03
summerrain's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 4,362
Groaned at 4 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 985 Times in 325 Posts
summerrain has a reputation beyond reputesummerrain has a reputation beyond reputesummerrain has a reputation beyond reputesummerrain has a reputation beyond reputesummerrain has a reputation beyond reputesummerrain has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tone deafness in pre-schooler

Quote:
View Post
So whenever my 3 1/2 year old sings songs, she is really off key which is so cute and I love it but I've been wondering if she'll be tone deaf like her papa.

I've heard other children her age sing and they pretty much hit most of the notes so I was just wondering if you guys know if her little shrieking voice is here for good or if there is hope for the poor little thing.
Dont worry Meisie, singing off-key doesnt mean that your child is tone deaf.

Tone deafness is really the lack of the ability to distinguish between musical pitches but in my opinion very very rare.

People get labelled tone deaf when they cant vocally match a pitch which is unfair as its rather due to vocal problems. At her age, she is totally unable to control where her voice is going as she is still developing. Also most people who are labelled tone deaf simply lack confidence and practice, particularly if their tunelessness was highlighted early on in life.

Right now, I think she is just copying her daddy as well. You and her daddy are the biggest influencers around the house and if daddy sings flat, well chances are she is going to as well.

I will let her sing at pitch comfortable for her as of now. As long as she can differentiate between the tones (for example in the lines of Mary had a little lamb: "lit-tle lamb": mee - soh - soh), dont worry. Keep engaging her in musical activities, listen to songs, tap/clap rhythms along with her.
__________________
Remember when someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles to frown, BUT it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and b****-slap the mother-f***er upside the head.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank summerrain for this useful post:
  #13  
Old 17.11.2011, 11:08
tildaoz's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Meilen
Posts: 621
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 576 Times in 284 Posts
tildaoz has earned the respect of manytildaoz has earned the respect of manytildaoz has earned the respect of many
Re: Tone deafness in pre-schooler

Quote:

I know that there are benefits of singing when kids have got a stutter but I'd never really considered it as a language learning tool until we were merrily crooning out this recent song.
This is so true. When kids sing, they sing the words regardless of whether they understand them or not, and this helps so much with pronunciation etc, without the stress of 'learning' a language.

When my daughter started kindergarten I enrolled herin the singing group at the local music school. She'd come home singing these songs in Swiss-German that sounded like just a whole bunch of consonants put together to me (aaagh, Swiss-German!). Two years later, she still does it, and every now and then she and a friend will burst into song for the sheer joy of it.

And of course the reverse is true, too, when it comes to learning English. When I met a wonderful Austrian friend of mine her daughter was only four (and mine was two) and of course she spoke no English at all. So we sang some songs in English together (with different hand actions etc). She still remembers them now that she's eight and learning English at school.

Music gets stuck in our heads somehow and is a great way to remember lots of things.
__________________
Music lessons in English: www.discovering-music.com

Writing and Research Skills Zürich: www.writingandresearchskills.com
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank tildaoz for this useful post:
  #14  
Old 17.11.2011, 11:26
ecb's Avatar
ecb ecb is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: out n about - it's summer!
Posts: 2,183
Groaned at 8 Times in 8 Posts
Thanked 3,527 Times in 1,311 Posts
ecb has a reputation beyond reputeecb has a reputation beyond reputeecb has a reputation beyond reputeecb has a reputation beyond reputeecb has a reputation beyond reputeecb has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tone deafness in pre-schooler

Quote:
View Post
When kids sing, they sing the words regardless of whether they understand them or not, and this helps so much with pronunciation etc, without the stress of 'learning' a language.
This is so true. My 3 year old has developmental delays mainly associated with speech and communication, but he could sing long before he could say any discernable words. We sing daily and often, and I have lost count of how many words he has learnt through singing which now, little by little, drip into his active speech vocabulary. Plus he loves it (and sings amazingly and perfectly in tune .. which shows at least something is working in that little brain ).

I once heard on a discussion programme on BBC Radio 4 that learning music or a foreign language is the equivalent of the brain Olympics. So our singing, multi-lingual children are elite Olympiads!
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank ecb for this useful post:
  #15  
Old 17.11.2011, 12:09
Chemmie's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Zurich
Posts: 4,129
Groaned at 32 Times in 28 Posts
Thanked 4,911 Times in 2,222 Posts
Chemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tone deafness in pre-schooler

On that note, I'm in my 30s and love to sing, but also severely tone deaf. Is there any chance for me. Would love to magically develope perfect-pitch so I can finally persue my calling of being a rockstar
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Chemmie for this useful post:
  #16  
Old 17.11.2011, 12:35
summerrain's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 4,362
Groaned at 4 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 985 Times in 325 Posts
summerrain has a reputation beyond reputesummerrain has a reputation beyond reputesummerrain has a reputation beyond reputesummerrain has a reputation beyond reputesummerrain has a reputation beyond reputesummerrain has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tone deafness in pre-schooler

Quote:
View Post
On that note, I'm in my 30s and love to sing, but also severely tone deaf. Is there any chance for me. Would love to magically develope perfect-pitch so I can finally persue my calling of being a rockstar
haaahaa Chem...

Actually there is relative pitch and perfect pitch.

Relative pitch is what most people have: which is the ability to differentiate different spaces between the pitches, is inherent in humans.

Perfect pitch on the other hand is the refined perception of color within individual pitches - the ability to recreate or identify a certain note from memory. For example, if you hear a song on a radio, you are able to tell the key its in. Or if someone asked you to sing in the key of C, you are able to recall and sing that from memory. Its a much more higher level of hearing and might be achievable by any human being during a critical period of auditory development. Studies (although not conclusive) that Asian children who speak the Cantonese dialect or Mandarin language tend to have perfect pitch due to the tonal aspect of these languages (now you know why there are so many overachieving little Asian music prodigies besides pushy parents being another contributing factor! )

Its not a pre requisite for musicians although it has helped me breeze through tasks like transcription or catching Adele's Someone Like You on the piano easier. Its a nice to have but having a relative pitch is enough for anyone who is interested in music.

Tone deafness is really really rare so dont be so quick to dismiss yourself as tone deaf. Usually, ear training and singing lessons will definitely help.
__________________
Remember when someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles to frown, BUT it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and b****-slap the mother-f***er upside the head.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank summerrain for this useful post:
  #17  
Old 17.11.2011, 12:36
dodgyken's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Democratic Republic Kenistan
Posts: 10,690
Groaned at 281 Times in 232 Posts
Thanked 19,403 Times in 7,402 Posts
dodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tone deafness in pre-schooler

Don't worry - main tone-deaf 3 1/2 year olds have gone on to have successful careers after X-Factor
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank dodgyken for this useful post:
Reply

Tags
dysmelodia, tin ear, tone deaf




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
"Tone as you walk" shoes Peg A Sports / Fitness / Beauty / Wellness 10 23.04.2010 16:46
HELP: My skin tone is transparent!! Guest Daily life 24 26.11.2008 13:36
Duel-tone TV ta70s TV/internet/telephone 6 19.08.2008 18:00
[German] what effect do tone and intonation etc have on politeness? puddycat Language corner 13 03.07.2007 17:57


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 21:10.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0