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  #41  
Old 04.01.2012, 12:46
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Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

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Disagree completely. Psychologically it is much easier to know that something is the cause of a disease. Even if there is no cure. At least you know what the problem is.
The reason I disagree is because when you identify the fault of the matter, there is quite often no justice. Herein is why I think it's ultimately far more devastating.

I guess it's really quite individual though or we wouldn't be disagreeing so much. ;p
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  #42  
Old 04.01.2012, 12:51
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Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

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Obviously there are many variables that contribute to disease. Disease exposure, nutrition, genetics, etc.

Compare the rate of autism over time, you can also compare the rate of autism in the Amish population to that of the vaccinated population. Amish have something of 1 in 10,000 vs. 1 in 38 for the UK population. Yes, there are many factors that contribute to the risk variable but those are the approx. numbers.

The fact that most doctors don't question vaccines and also don't question artificial sweeteners and other artificial food additives should raise concern - or it doesn't. Even Pedialyte has artificial flavors and sweeteners...read the label for cough medicine......
Is there a link online to that study among the Amish? Amish are very private people who rather not even speak to the "Englishers" so I wonder how accurate that study is and how it was conducted. Amish rarely visit a doctor.
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  #43  
Old 04.01.2012, 12:53
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Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

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There are scientists too who believe they have discovered something new and they really want to believe their research has borne fruit.
I think you've just described all scientists. ;p

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My wife was ill before Christmas and the apotheke suggested something homeopathic (she was breast feeding and the conventional medicine was not suitable).

She bought and took nothing instead. The next day she felt much better. If, she had taken the homeopathic medicine suggested the night before (and if she hadn't been a scientist), she may have attributed her recovery to the homeopathic medicine and been utterly convinced but it would have been true in the slightest.
Sure. This happens all the time and is nothing new, no?
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  #44  
Old 04.01.2012, 12:54
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Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

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Amish have something of 1 in 10,000 vs. 1 in 38 for the UK population. Yes, there are many factors that contribute to the risk variable but those are the approx. numbers.
1:38? Are you serious? I think you need to check your stats.

Would you also like to hazard a guess as to why there is a 4.3:1 male:female ratio for ASD?
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  #45  
Old 04.01.2012, 12:54
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Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

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I think you've just described all scientists. ;p

Sure. This happens all the time and is nothing new, no?
Yes, that's my point. However, there are those here who do not believe in co-incidence.
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  #46  
Old 04.01.2012, 12:54
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Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

This study says that among the Old Order Amish the rate is 1 in 271

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/myth-...-t-have-autism
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  #47  
Old 04.01.2012, 12:56
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Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

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The reason I disagree is because when you identify the fault of the matter, there is quite often no justice. Herein is why I think it's ultimately far more devastating.

I guess it's really quite individual though or we wouldn't be disagreeing so much. ;p
My anecdotal "evidence" comes from working with physicians who have discussed this particular aspect of rare diseases with me. The parents of several disease areas I work in have to wait several years for a diagnosis. This is simply because the diseases are rare (and fatal) and Drs generally don't know much about them, so the parents end up stumbling from one Dr to the next without getting to a diagnosis.

I've also worked with patients groups to help them improve education - they too echoed the need to have a label for whatever was causing the problem - whether this was cancer, psychiatric illness or other. It took away a mystery and made them feel normal again because they knew what the problem was and could get on with dealing with the disease.

I think the other area that pops into my mind is that we are ever-increasingly becoming a blame culture, as in: "it's not my fault it's because X, Y or Z." You see this with more no-win, no-fee lawyers popping up. But back to autism, much easier to say it is the vaccine's fault than potentially having a genetic predisposition.

No, there often is no justice as to why someone should be autistic or have cancer. But once you get over that, you need to get on with living your life as best as possible.
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  #48  
Old 04.01.2012, 13:03
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Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

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Compare the rate of autism over time, you can also compare the rate of autism in the Amish population to that of the vaccinated population. Amish have something of 1 in 10,000 vs. 1 in 38 for the UK population. Yes, there are many factors that contribute to the risk variable but those are the approx. numbers.
Except for the fact that the Amish do, indeed, vaccinate their children. Ask the US CDC about the very busy vaccination clinics that they run there. You guys should be held up as an example for others in shoddy thinking.
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  #49  
Old 04.01.2012, 13:09
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Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

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1 in 38 for the UK population.
Are you sure about that?

From the UK's National Autistic Society website

http://www.autism.org.uk/About-autis...disorders.aspx

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Gillian Baird and her colleagues published a report of a prevalence study which surveyed a population of children aged 9-10 years in the South Thames region. All children who either already had a diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder or were known to child health or speech and language services as having social and communication difficulties were selected for screening. Children considered to be at risk of being an undetected case because they had a statement of special educational needs were also selected. Diagnoses were based on ICD-10 criteria. The results showed a prevalence rate of 38.9 in 10,000 for childhood autism, and 77.2 in 10,000 for other autism spectrum disorders, giving an overall figure of 116 in 10,000 for all autism spectrum disorders (Baird et al, 2006).
38.9/10,000 = 1:257

Which is quite similar to SwissAstrid's 1:271 in the Amish...

disclaimer: although I've not delved in the detail much, so don't know if definitions are the same!!
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  #50  
Old 04.01.2012, 13:13
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Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

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I think you've just described all scientists. ;p

Sure. This happens all the time and is nothing new, no?
Needless to say, science requires funding and it shouldn't be surprising that the funding dictates the ultimate research and whether something will be published or not. Then there is the board that approves or disapproves research for publishing. It is naive to think that money doesn't influence their decision.

I also know MD's that worked at NIH and they told me about the waste and how things work there...It all comes down to MONEY. I also know how commercial interest funds University research as they are paying science to find what they want scientific support for. Science is certainly not black and white as science and money are not separate.

It further should come as no surprise that the pharma industry is behind the socialization of the health care industry. It ultimately is a government subsidy that allows prices to remain high and profits to be on ever growth course. Not saying that all pharma is necessarily bad but one would be naive to not understand the monetary influence in that industry.
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  #51  
Old 04.01.2012, 13:16
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Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

I've also read that Maternal age http://www.webmd.com/brain/autism/ne...th-mothers-age

and diet :

http://smartparentprogram.blogspot.c...m-through.html

can also cause Autism.
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  #52  
Old 04.01.2012, 13:21
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Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

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OK - I'll bite and try not to say what a bad parent you are (). ....
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Thanks but no thanks for telling me what a bad parent I am....
OK, not a bad parent. But a really bad reader.

btw - I do know some proper proper scientists who think that autism and vaccinations are linked and that vaccinations cause more harm than they prevent. Just shows that a scientific education and even a PhD in Biology doesn't prevent irrational thinking.
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  #53  
Old 04.01.2012, 13:24
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Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

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Needless to say, science requires funding and it shouldn't be surprising that the funding dictates the ultimate research and whether something will be published or not. Then there is the board that approves or disapproves research for publishing. It is naive to think that money doesn't influence their decision.

I also know MD's that worked at NIH and they told me about the waste and how things work there...It all comes down to MONEY. I also know how commercial interest funds University research as they are paying science to find what they want scientific support for. Science is certainly not black and white as science and money are not separate.

It further should come as no surprise that the pharma industry is behind the socialization of the health care industry. It ultimately is a government subsidy that allows prices to remain high and profits to be on ever growth course. Not saying that all pharma is necessarily bad but one would be naive to not understand the monetary influence in that industry.
So, your real problem here is profits, specifically pharma co profits and not whether or not vaccines actually work and don't turn your child into some shambling Victorian nightmare. How is it you are able to even live in this country? It's like pharma central and a good reason why the country is able to pay for such lovely social amenties that I'm sure you don't mind having. I'm assuming banking profits are next on your list.
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  #54  
Old 04.01.2012, 13:24
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Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

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It further should come as no surprise that the pharma industry is behind the socialization of the health care industry. It ultimately is a government subsidy that allows prices to remain high and profits to be on ever growth course. Not saying that all pharma is necessarily bad but one would be naive to not understand the monetary influence in that industry.
I assure you that money plays a very important part of the homeopathy industry too.

(Otherwise they'd give the water away for free, no?)
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  #55  
Old 04.01.2012, 13:27
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Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

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Not saying that all pharma is necessarily bad but one would be naive to not understand the monetary influence in that industry.
Here, I agree as opposed to the absolute stance that all pharma is evil. Having worked in the industry for...perhaps too long ;p....I've seen on a personal level company cultures with more than dodgy ethics. But I've also seen companies who are really driven by a passion to help people. It's not just a statement for the media but a company ethos.

I think this entire thread has already been done to death in another long one on the pros/cons of vaccinations. You can't really bring up these subjects without a backlash. But you have every right to do what you believe is best for you and your children.

Even for someone like me who usually forms an opinion based on peer-reviewed science, I still stray. I suffered a miscarriage due to back x-rays. Published data "proves" it wasn't enough radiation to cause it but the modern joys of fetal testing prove it did. And so while studies will continue to say it's safe, I will absolutely never receive an x-ray during pregnancy. And knowing what caused the miscarriage brings no justice for me.
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  #56  
Old 04.01.2012, 13:30
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Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

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1:38? Are you serious? I think you need to check your stats.
Yes, I'm serious. Read up on the Cambridge study if I remember correctly.

Or you could watch this quick video which also quotes that number but I read the Cambridge study a while back if I remember correctly.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540...65539#42965539


I know that people often leave forums when they cannot support their point of view with facts. I don't want to come across like that but this takes more time than I want to spend time on. I have to get back to work now but wanted to quickly reply to you as you didn't believe the number I posted.

I'm done with this thread as I didn't intend to engage into a lengthy response. Thanks for those that sent PM's and answered my question.

For those that disagree, let's just agree to disagree and have a great day.
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  #57  
Old 04.01.2012, 13:31
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Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

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Not saying that all pharma is necessarily bad but one would be naive to not understand the monetary influence in that industry.
Good to see you have become a touch more moderate - thanks

Not sure why money = bad though? Something has driven the doubling of life expectancy in developed countries over the last 100 years or so, and I suspect that it is economic growth and R&D dollars more than arnica
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  #58  
Old 04.01.2012, 13:33
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Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

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I think this entire thread has already been done to death in another long one on the pros/cons of vaccinations. You can't really bring up these subjects without a backlash. But you have every right to do what you believe is best for you and your children.
I disagree here. I believe there's also the responsibility to do what's right for the population as a whole as well as your personal wishes.
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  #59  
Old 04.01.2012, 13:36
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Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

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I disagree here. I believe there's also the responsibility to do what's right for the population as a whole as well as your personal wishes.
I think the OP believes she is doing what's right for the population as a whole. The thing is that the rest of the population doesn't agree with her.
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Old 04.01.2012, 16:53
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Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

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You need to be aware that some child care facilities and schools will not admit your child without a full vacination history. Home schooling is also not an option in many Kantons so you may be forced to vacinate your child in order to get them educated.
And which Canton would that be? I live in Zurich, and have nieces in Luzern, who are not vaccinated, so that cancels two Cantons.
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