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  #141  
Old 06.01.2012, 13:38
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Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

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I never examined your wife so cannot say. So I will say her belief in that it would work, induced a placebo affect. I woudl argue that Sore throats that would normally require medication strong enough to be avoided during pregnancy are hardly likely to clear up overnight on their own accord. Something else worked. Choose what you will, neither of us know so cant really debate it.
He didn't say it cleared up, he said she felt much better. Two different things.
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  #142  
Old 06.01.2012, 13:39
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Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

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So does homeopathy work then?
No, but some people think it does.
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  #143  
Old 06.01.2012, 13:45
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Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

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All this would have some relevance if homeopathy outperformed a placebo. It doesn't.
Hoemopathy prescribed as a placebo... No one argued that it actually outperformed a placebo.
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  #144  
Old 06.01.2012, 13:45
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Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

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It does not have to, it merely has to be diluted to that scale. ..
And then hit with a stick, don't forget. Otherwise it doesn't work.

The other mechanism is supposed to be that of like treating like. So, cure for hangover is (extremely diluted alcohol in) water. You can remove the bit in brackets if you like.
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  #145  
Old 06.01.2012, 13:48
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Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

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And then hit with a stick, don't forget. Otherwise it doesn't work.

The other mechanism is supposed to be that of like treating like. So, cure for hangover is (extremely diluted alcohol in) water. You can remove the bit in brackets if you like.

Succussed on a leather bound book for God's sake man, get it right eh ???
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  #146  
Old 06.01.2012, 14:00
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Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

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Hoemopathy prescribed as a placebo... No one argued that it actually outperformed a placebo.
Then how does it make a difference? Why would anyone prescribe homeopathy as a placebo unless to make extra cash? You seem to think it is different in some way to a sugar pill, or a stone someone spat on, or anything I could make up, give to you, and say it will make you feel better.


If you want to resell tap water, you make up a pretty story about it's purity from cool mountain streams, drunk from by many generations of charmingly dressed stereotypes. You emphasise it's naturalness, talk about all it's non existent benefits over regular tap water, and get people to drink it as often as possible.
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  #147  
Old 06.01.2012, 14:16
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Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

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Then how does it make a difference? Why would anyone prescribe homeopathy as a placebo unless to make extra cash? You seem to think it is different in some way to a sugar pill, or a stone someone spat on, or anything I could make up, give to you, and say it will make you feel better.


If you want to resell tap water, you make up a pretty story about it's purity from cool mountain streams, drunk from by many generations of charmingly dressed stereotypes. You emphasise it's naturalness, talk about all it's non existent benefits over regular tap water, and get people to drink it as often as possible.

You prescribe a placebo , because you want to induce the placebo affect.
NHS Dr's do it, not to make money, but to save money.

Homeopathy is routinely prescribed as a placebo on the NHS.

The provable results of this are published.
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  #148  
Old 06.01.2012, 14:30
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Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

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You prescribe a placebo , because you want to induce the placebo affect.
NHS Dr's do it, not to make money, but to save money.

Homeopathy is routinely prescribed as a placebo on the NHS.

The provable results of this are published.
Then why would they prescribe a homepathic placebo? They are more expensive than regular placebos, that isn't saving money, it's spending more!

The NHS should not be spending money to placate spoilt little brat adults who need a little sugar with their pill.
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  #149  
Old 06.01.2012, 14:37
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Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

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Then why would they prescribe a homepathic placebo? They are more expensive than regular placebos, that isn't saving money, it's spending more!

The NHS should not be spending money to placate spoilt little brat adults who need a little sugar with their pill.
It;s common knowledge that the few homeopathic hospitals in the NHS serve on useful purpose alone: namely to remove those weirdos from the main system thus freeing up GPs and hospital beds to patients who actually need treatment.

(As we all know that anything that can be 'treated' by homeopathic methods is neither life-threatening or indeed remotely serious in the slightest).

There's a word that used to be used to describe people reliant on homeopathic remedies sometime ago. Unfortunately it's no longer PC to use it in the same context. The word's hypochondriac.
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  #150  
Old 06.01.2012, 14:39
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Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

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Then why would they prescribe a homepathic placebo? They are more expensive than regular placebos, that isn't saving money, it's spending more!

The NHS should not be spending money to placate spoilt little brat adults who need a little sugar with their pill.

I presume you have facts to back that up ?


...and you can add the Queen and Royal Family to your list of spoilt little brat adults.
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  #151  
Old 06.01.2012, 14:42
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Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

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...and you can add the Queen and Royal Family to your list of spoilt little brat adults.
I thought that was obvious?
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  #152  
Old 06.01.2012, 14:45
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Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

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I presume you have facts to back that up ?


...and you can add the Queen and Royal Family to your list of spoilt little brat adults.
I thought it was just Charles that was the Homeopathy nut?

Or did they use homeopathic stents for Prince Phillip's operation?
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  #153  
Old 06.01.2012, 14:45
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Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

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I presume you have facts to back that up ?
Are you kidding me? Seriously, explain to me how they can be cheaper than a sugar pill. Seeing as it takes someone time and resources to do all the useless rituals to upgrade a sugar pill to a sugar pill with a drop of water.


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...and you can add the Queen and Royal Family to your list of spoilt little brat adults.
LOL
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  #154  
Old 06.01.2012, 14:58
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Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

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I presume you have facts to back that up ?


I dont think there is a good enough 'facepalm' pic to post. This will have to do.


What cyrus has pointed out is just common sense.


cheers
SC
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  #155  
Old 06.01.2012, 15:13
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Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

So the NHS buys Homeopathic pills because they are more expensive than sugar pills , albeit slightly more effective ? They like spending more money, it's not as if their budgets are cut eh ? Simple economics evades you, in bulk, the Homeopathic pills are cheaper than any sugar another company can supply. Do not confuse manufacturing costs with narket prices....Oh, I see you already have, never mind.

Face palms back at ya gents, you are arguing against already established procedures. But the facts must be untrue because they are invalidated through your disbelief ?

Denial is a river in Egypt...
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  #156  
Old 06.01.2012, 15:14
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Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

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Some might not call it a physical affect, perhaps quantum effect. I reject the molecular memory theory myself, and can only offer another analogy.

A man meet's a Buddhist Monk, is taught by the monk and moves on.
The teaching the man received and stored cannot be calculated and explained by science if they were to examine the man, but the man is happier and healthier. A mixture of belief and phsyical neural activty has activated a change in the man, even though the Buddhist Monk is no longer present, the affects remain.

Not everything can be explained by science (yet). Yet Science has an awkward history of dismissing that which it cannot prove as nonsense, only to prove or disprove it later when better informed and equipped.

Science as a system cannot be used to prove itself, yet it relies on itself to prove itself, which by it's own arguments is flawed. This is nothing more than the Christian arguing with a Bible to say God exists. "God must exist, it says so in the Bible, and God gave us the Bible, right ???"

To be proven effectively, the system must be proven by external means and arguments. Science has yet to be proven.

Faith is massively imnportant to many people, who swear by it. Yet to a scientist, Faith is just a state of mind and faulty belief and cannot be proven or disproved. We cannot rely on science alone, let us mix in a blend of mysticism, belief , ignorance and that yet to be proved to
complete the human mind.


One only has to look at the recent CERN discoveries to see scientists shredding up past work and re-writing the rules. Homeopaths do not mock Scientists, and I believe they should be accorded the same respect. Most are sincere healers, with a desire to heal, if for one minute they *knew* homeopathy did not work, they would not be using it. But they continue to do so, people continue to use it and swear by it, and people continue to get better after usage. Belief and faith, are intangible elements in the healing process. Leave them alone, or learn to work with them.
What is the quantum effect - what does that mean? How is it manifested by dilution? Quantum theory is backed by maths, can you provide some links that explains this - with a physical explanation?
All the stuff about faith doesn't explain how it works. Can you provide some facts instead of anecdotes?

What is changed in the water after a dilution?
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  #157  
Old 06.01.2012, 15:21
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Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

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So the NHS buys Homeopathic pills because they are more expensive than sugar pills , albeit slightly more effective .....blah blah....
Hopefully not any more. This is the recommendation and conclusion to the Homeopathy - Science and Technology Committee report on homeopathy in the NHS:

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The Government should stop allowing the funding of homeopathy on the NHS.
Report here.
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  #158  
Old 06.01.2012, 15:22
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Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

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You prescribe a placebo , because you want to induce the placebo affect.
NHS Dr's do it, not to make money, but to save money.

Homeopathy is routinely prescribed as a placebo on the NHS.

The provable results of this are published.
This conclusion is a direct quote from a Department of Health response (from July 2010) to a select commitee report on the use of homeopathy in the NHS. The bold is my own emphasis.:

"By providing homeopathy on the NHS and allowing MHRA licensing of products which subsequently appear on pharmacy shelves, the Government runs the risk of endorsing homeopathy as an efficacious system of medicine. To maintain patient trust, choice and safety, the Government should not endorse the use of placebo treatments, including homeopathy. Homeopathy should not be funded on the NHS and the MHRA should stop licensing homeopathic products"

Edit: I believe Tom and I have been visiting the same sources.
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  #159  
Old 06.01.2012, 15:28
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Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

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So the NHS buys Homeopathic pills because they are more expensive than sugar pills , albeit slightly more effective ? They like spending more money, it's not as if their budgets are cut eh ? Simple economics evades you, in bulk, the Homeopathic pills are cheaper than any sugar another company can supply. Do not confuse manufacturing costs with narket prices....Oh, I see you already have, never mind.
Nope, still massive fail
Homepathy isn't even slightly more effective.
"They like spending more money" is not a good argument in favour of the NHS using Homeopathy.
Sugar pills can be bought in bulk, in fact, it wouldn't suprise me to find that sham companies buy sugar pills came from the same suppliers as anyone else, at the same price. So no, there is no confusion about the economics or economies of scale. The NHS is free to buy in bulk. Homepathy companies also buy in bulk, do their usuless rituals, and add a premium. Also, there is no way to test that homepathic pills have actually been treated, so testing the quality would involve site visits, even more expense.
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Old 06.01.2012, 15:31
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Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

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so testing the quality would involve site visits, even more expense.
Interesting point, are Homeopathy manufacturers subject to FDA, EMA, Swissmedic etc. regulatory inspections like a conventional Pharmaceutical company?
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