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Old 26.01.2012, 17:39
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Re: Reversing an adoption of 2 children

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his earlier own two children have seen their inheritance diluted
Maybe they should learn how to work and make their own money. Thats the best inheritance they can get from their father.
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  #22  
Old 26.01.2012, 17:52
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Re: Reversing an adoption of 2 children

Is it legal here to do a "living will"? That is, you sit down with the whole family (and I mean the whole family - anyone who may lay claim), lawyer(s) present, and tell everyone what they are going to get. If they have a problem with their "entitlement", they can air their grievances, or forever hold their peace.

But unfortunately here, Pflichtteil does tie your hands considerably, at least in regards to the children.
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Old 26.01.2012, 18:09
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Re: Reversing an adoption of 2 children

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You can't "disavow" your children (or parents!) under Swiss law, ...
According to the Notar I saw when drafting my will, you can disinherit your children, if you can demonstrate they've dishonoured the family name.

If the adopted kids could be disinherited, then so could the natural kids. They should think on that.
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Old 26.01.2012, 18:14
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Re: Reversing an adoption of 2 children

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According to the Notar I saw when drafting my will, you can disinherit your children, if you can demonstrate they've dishonoured the family name.
Given this, I find it difficult to fathom why so many Swiss don't want minarets in their country.
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  #25  
Old 26.01.2012, 18:39
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Re: Reversing an adoption of 2 children

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So he'll be penniless and at the mercy of his "natural" children (I know about usufruct and life estates, but the capital value will be gone forever, or else the "gift" isn't one and can be contested. Excellent choice...
Well, no. He can gift for example his real estate long before he dies to his favourite kids and add a "Wohnrecht" clause - the right to live in the property till he dies. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wohnrecht#Schweiz

This cannot be contested and is the number one trick if you really want to short hand one kid against another...
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Old 26.01.2012, 18:43
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Re: Reversing an adoption of 2 children

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Well, no. He can gift for example his real estate long before he dies to his favourite kids and add a "Wohnrecht" clause - the right to live in the property till he dies. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wohnrecht#Schweiz

This cannot be contested and is the number one trick if you really want to short hand one kid against another...
That's what I said Ha can't sell the house, not even if he needs to raise money e.g. for better care, and he can't move. As soon as he ceases to live there permanently, the life estate (Wohnrecht) becomes void. Also, the Wohnrecht allows the new owner of the property countless oppartunities to pester the original owner. You really need to think long and hard before giving you main asset to someone in return for a mere right-of-use.
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Old 26.01.2012, 18:46
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Re: Reversing an adoption of 2 children

Assuming the gentleman in question is Swiss, and the testament follows Swiss Erbrecht... Two sort of relevant articles from K-Tipp:

http://www.ktipp.ch/themen/beitrag/1..._erbberechtigt

Essentially, a man adopted the children of his second wife. After her death, he grew disappointed in the children - he hasn't seen them in three years. Now the man is terminally ill; he wants to leave his estate to the person from Spitex who has taken care of him during the illness. Can he do this?

No - the adoptive children are treated exactly like one's natural children - they are entitled to 3/4 of the estate (because the wife is deceased). The man may leave the remaining 1/4 to the Spitex carer.

An exception might be if the adoption took place before 1973, under old laws.

By the way - the man could leave everything to the Spitex carer - and hope that the children don't contest it. But if they do...



And dealing with adoptions that took place before 1973:

http://www.ktipp.ch/beratung/1040466...uer_Adoptierte

Prior to 1973, adoption was only partial integration into the adoptive family; the connection to the biological parents - including Erbrecht - remained, meaning that a child would inherit from his/her biological parents and not the adoptive ones. Adoptions that took place before 1973 follow the old law.

That changed in 1973; under the new law an adoption is full integration into the adoptive family, the inheritance right to the biological parents terminates upon the adoption, and an adopted child has the same inheritance rights as a biological child.

Children adopted before 1973 should check the adoption contracts, though. There was a 5 year period after the introduction of the new law where the old contract could be changed to follow the new law.


----

Anybody else shocked that an adoptive child was not viewed as a full family member as late as 1973?
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Old 26.01.2012, 18:52
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Re: Reversing an adoption of 2 children

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Maybe they should learn how to work and make their own money. Thats the best inheritance they can get from their father.
I know of a monstrously rich person who has made a will to leave every possible rappen he owns to the local dog shelter.

his family have not been informed and will discover when it's too late. I bet by that time he'll be laughing his way to heaven (or hell).
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Old 26.01.2012, 19:58
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Re: Reversing an adoption of 2 children

As someone who didn't realise how different the situation is here to my home country, I found the German wikipedia article really informative (particularly the section on Pflichtteil):

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testame...in_der_Schweiz
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  #30  
Old 26.01.2012, 20:06
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Re: Reversing an adoption of 2 children

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I know of a monstrously rich person who has made a will to leave every possible rappen he owns to the local dog shelter.

his family have not been informed and will discover when it's too late. I bet by that time he'll be laughing his way to heaven (or hell).
I was wondering when somebody would say "leave your money to the local dog's home".
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  #31  
Old 26.01.2012, 20:12
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Re: Reversing an adoption of 2 children

As far as I understand, in CH, you can't do that if you have children. I believe that 50% has got to go to them, whether you are on speaking terms or not.
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  #32  
Old 27.01.2012, 09:53
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Re: Reversing an adoption of 2 children

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I know of a monstrously rich person who has made a will to leave every possible rappen he owns to the local dog shelter.

his family have not been informed and will discover when it's too late. I bet by that time he'll be laughing his way to heaven (or hell).
"Too late" is a year after death, I think they would figure it out by then, no?

Tom
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Old 27.01.2012, 14:54
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Re: Reversing an adoption of 2 children

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"Too late" is a year after death, I think they would figure it out by then, no?

Tom
still too late to get some satisfaction by voicing their resentment in person...

it's just grotesque how many even people hang about "waiting" for inheritance as if it were their due. I know one or two relatively young people who even admit quite openly that they don't see the need for finding a proper job as sooner or later they won't need it any more. IMO this lazy kind don't deserve even the legal quarter or half or whatever the law prescribes.
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  #34  
Old 29.01.2012, 12:56
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Re: Reversing an adoption of 2 children

Regardless of the legal jargon and implemented law, this thread really is sad.
He raised those children, he called them his own.
He's divorcing their mother, not them.
He should consider how they will feel if he even attempts to disinherit them.

Thank God that real love has nothing to do with biology.
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Old 29.01.2012, 13:44
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Re: Reversing an adoption of 2 children

I agree that this thread is quite sad - any breakdown of a family is a cause for sorrow.

But what I also find very sad is that in order for the gentleman in question to be able to do as he wishes with his estate he has to go to the extreme of reversing an adoption. I simply cannot get my head around the Swiss/European notion of forced inheritance, that a person loses the right to do as he wishes with his hard-earned estate, that another has an unbreakable claim solely because of family status.

It is such an utterly foreign concept to me...

I have a very close relationship with my parents - yet I do not expect a dime from them. Nor do any of my siblings. They gave us our 'inheritance' by teaching us to stand on our own two feet, and helping us to acquire the education needed to make our own way in the world. I hope that the folks check out with a zero balance, having had a chance to enjoy the fruits of a lifetime's labor. And if there is anything left, I hope they do with it what they will - including leaving it to the neighbor's cat if they so choose. I would never see not inheriting as a betrayal of the parent-child relationship... as that relationship is about love and affection and shared history, not money.

I will do the same with my estate; my decision has nothing to do with my relationship with the family members who would be statutory heirs under Swiss law. My assets, my decision - and I have decided that whatever is left over after I shuffle off this mortal coil will do more good in the world if it goes to charity. I love the kids, they have an unbreakable claim on my affections - but not on my estate.

Clearly a cultural as well as a legal difference...
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  #36  
Old 29.01.2012, 14:13
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Re: Reversing an adoption of 2 children

i can relate to this case and if my parents split and my brother or sister ask my dad to do that, i know they will be the ones out. its about morals, what about the kids feelings.
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Old 29.01.2012, 14:17
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Re: Reversing an adoption of 2 children

It will be interesting to see if the 'greedy' children are happy to look after their father when he is ill in his 90's, or will the adopted children feel they need to take on this role.
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  #38  
Old 29.01.2012, 14:41
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Re: Reversing an adoption of 2 children

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I agree that this thread is quite sad - any breakdown of a family is a cause for sorrow.

But what I also find very sad is that in order for the gentleman in question to be able to do as he wishes with his estate he has to go to the extreme of reversing an adoption. I simply cannot get my head around the Swiss/European notion of forced inheritance, that a person loses the right to do as he wishes with his hard-earned estate, that another has an unbreakable claim solely because of family status.

It is such an utterly foreign concept to me...

I have a very close relationship with my parents - yet I do not expect a dime from them. Nor do any of my siblings. They gave us our 'inheritance' by teaching us to stand on our own two feet, and helping us to acquire the education needed to make our own way in the world. I hope that the folks check out with a zero balance, having had a chance to enjoy the fruits of a lifetime's labor. And if there is anything left, I hope they do with it what they will - including leaving it to the neighbor's cat if they so choose. I would never see not inheriting as a betrayal of the parent-child relationship... as that relationship is about love and affection and shared history, not money.

I will do the same with my estate; my decision has nothing to do with my relationship with the family members who would be statutory heirs under Swiss law. My assets, my decision - and I have decided that whatever is left over after I shuffle off this mortal coil will do more good in the world if it goes to charity. I love the kids, they have an unbreakable claim on my affections - but not on my estate.

Clearly a cultural as well as a legal difference...
I really understand how you feel. However the law says you have to give 50% to be shared among your children- and do whatever with the other 50%. So why not share 50% to children, and 50% to your favourite charity/ies?
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Old 29.01.2012, 14:54
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Re: Reversing an adoption of 2 children

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I really understand how you feel. However the law says you have to give 50% to be shared among your children- and do whatever with the other 50%. So why not share 50% to children, and 50% to your favourite charity/ies?
Of course you could spend all your money during your life & have very little left for people to fight over.
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Old 29.01.2012, 15:19
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Re: Reversing an adoption of 2 children

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I really understand how you feel. However the law says you have to give 50% to be shared among your children- and do whatever with the other 50%. So why not share 50% to children, and 50% to your favourite charity/ies?
As we are not Swiss, we have claimed Heimatrecht - and so even if we are still here when the Grim Reaper calls our Testament is written under US law. So it all goes to charity.

Not because we love the family any less (the 'kids' are actually our nieces and nephews, but we are ersatz parents), but because we love them dearly. Toward that end we believe that the time to help is when the kids are young, and to ensure they have a good educaton, have the skills to start out. As young adults, handing them a portfolio on a silver platter would do more harm then good - having been given a good education, the kids need to negotiate the world on their own.

Tuff luv.
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