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Old 24.05.2012, 12:25
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Re: Beliving in Reiki?

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...If you believe in energy, drink red bull!
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I'll keep this in mind, thanks..
A glass of wine works also...
What about red bull and wine? Either consecutively or concurrently?
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Old 24.05.2012, 12:33
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Re: Beliving in Reiki?

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The universal constant of all therapies is the mind.
I spent 8 years in China, and really found it fascinating how the doctors behaved to reinforce the placebo effect - they would always speak with absolute authority, because the patients would believe them more and therefore recover faster.

It didn't rub well with me (I like my questions answered) but it was very, very interesting to observe in action. So much of TCM forces patient engagement - take 14 small pills 6 times daily, don't eat cucumber and drink this nasty draught twice a day.

Everything is somehow difficult to consume or use, which makes patients focus, and helps their recovery. Pills are either tiny (and must be counted) or huge (and must be divided), and wherever possible everything tastes like pickled ass.
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Old 24.05.2012, 12:50
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Re: Believing in Reiki?

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Well, I would like to have a treatment and see how it works for me.. I wonder how much I will benefit from it..

As many have stated, it depends on your practitioner. I had Reiki treatments about 12 years ago, I was so amazed, at the results that I did the Reiki 1st certificate. And there I stopped, because I was told in this course that I should always ask for a fee, and a rather high one at that too.
Being Hindu, this did not sit well with me (material wealth and the ego, ect.ect). But Reiki did open a new world for me, a world that I really had lost connection to. And I am eternally grateful for that.

As we all know, life is a journey, we are all at different points, but all our paths have one destiny. All the best, Zuricher, I hope that you find what you are searching for, if not, dont give up.

There is a bookstore in Zurich, Buchandlung im Licht, www.imlicht.ch
there are alot of talks, seminars, some in English, there would be a good place to find a therapist.
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Old 24.05.2012, 12:51
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Re: Beliving in Reiki?

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What about red bull and wine? Either consecutively or concurrently?

The only difference is that Reiki doesn't leave you with a hangover, and doesn't need to be administered on a daily basis
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Old 24.05.2012, 13:17
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Re: Believing in Reiki?

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A And there I stopped, because I was told in this course that I should always ask for a fee, and a rather high one at that too.
As a total newbie I lack a 'thank' button, so I'll thank you here
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Old 24.05.2012, 14:03
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Re: Beliving in Reiki?

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Don't know anything about it, but anything with the word energy in it sounds like a load of tosh to me!

If you believe in energy, drink red bull!
Well, you do not have to believe in energy because there is nothing to believe in. The whole universe is made of energy.

As you can see in Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matter

"Fully 70% of the matter density in the universe appears to be in the form of dark energy. Twenty-six percent is dark matter. Only 4% is ordinary matter. So less than 1 part in 20 is made out of matter we have observed experimentally or described in the standard model of particle physics. Of the other 96%, apart from the properties just mentioned, we know absolutely nothing."

So only 4% is matter, which is by the way also a manifestation of energy, but this still has to be fully proven by quantum physicists.

As you can see in Wikipedia:
"For example, almost 99% of the mass of ordinary atomic matter consists of mass associated with the energy contributed by the gluons and the kinetic energy of the quarks which make up nucleons. In this view, most of the mass of ordinary "matter" consists of mass which is not contributed by matter particles."

Everything is energy. It's the only thing which really exists. So you really do not have to believe in it, it is not a religion.

Coming back to Reiki - well there are people who are more sensitive to the energy around us, however the problem is that there are a lot of people who do not have enough experience and some of them are simply crooks.
In my opinion it's quite difficult to find someone who can be really reliable.
But you can always try and find out by yourself.
But for sure it will not solve all the problems but I think it might help in some areas if you find the right person.
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Old 24.05.2012, 14:17
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Re: Beliving in Reiki?

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Everything is energy. It's the only thing which really exists. So you really do not have to believe in it, it is not a religion.
Uhmmm, the way you look at it is.
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Old 24.05.2012, 14:40
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Re: Beliving in Reiki?

In the world of reputable therapy practitioners there is no such thing as "alternative". They use the word complimentary instead, as in to be used along side and with the full knowledge of traditional doctors and medicines. Any therapist who tells a patient to stop taking medication or to stop seeing their Dr should be dismissed post haste.

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At the end of the day, there is no alternative therapy which matches the proven effectiveness of traditional medicine, surgery, examination techniques, physiotherapy and psychology.
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Old 24.05.2012, 14:57
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Re: Beliving in Reiki?

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Uhmmm, the way you look at it is.
Well... I just wanted to stress that matter is a tiny fragment of our universe, that's all. We still do not know how the matter is really formed.
But nowadays we know that most of the universe is formed of energy.

With religion - you can not prove anything, you believe or not. With energy - it is possible, however difficult. We still can not prove a lot right now but we will be able to do it in the future.
The same thing about Reiki - you do not and should not believe in it blindly. But you can always try and check. If it works for you and you feel better and some of your problems are gone - great, and if not - find something else, perhaps this method is not for you.
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Old 24.05.2012, 14:57
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Re: Beliving in Reiki?

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In the world of reputable therapy practitioners there is no such thing as "alternative".
The problem with that statement is that choosing a practitioner relies on reputation, not certification. There are no universally accepted standards for alternative (or complimentary, if you wish) therapist certifications, nor are their claims regulated in the same way as medical or pharmaceutical claims.

It is an un(der)regulated, generally unaccountable field - and one that by its very nature is problematic to regulate as it relies on generally unreproducible results and anecdotal evidence.

Some forms of therapy have been better tested than others (some herbal remedies are proven effective, acupuncture shows reproducible, physiological results, etc.) but most energy based therapies rely on anecdotal reportage and can't be distinguished from the placebo effect.

That's not to denigrate the power of the mind and the efficacy of the placebo effect in releasing it, but rather to reiterate that the industry as a whole can be problematic from the POV of the consumer.
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Old 24.05.2012, 15:07
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Re: Beliving in Reiki?

For me it is not the therapy itself that is an issue, I've used some myself that are far from mainstream. It does not even matter to me if the practice is unregulated or the practitioner uncertified, to me the measure of a good therapist is one who does not encourage their patient to ditch their traditional treatments and one who does not sell miracles. Any therapist I have seen has insisted that they can try to help, explains what they are doing and does not try to sell a cure. I would walk away from anybody who did otherwise. There are many, many charlatans out there so choosing a person based on reputation is sometimes the best way to go.

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The problem with that statement is that choosing a practitioner relies on reputation, not certification. There are no universally accepted standards for alternative (or complimentary, if you wish) therapist certifications, nor are their claims regulated in the same way as medical or pharmaceutical claims.

It is an un(der)regulated, generally unaccountable field - and one that by its very nature is problematic to regulate as it relies on generally unreproducible results and anecdotal evidence.

Some forms of therapy have been better tested than others (some herbal remedies are proven effective, acupuncture shows reproducible, physiological results, etc.) but most energy based therapies rely on anecdotal reportage and can't be distinguished from the placebo effect.

That's not to denigrate the power of the mind and the efficacy of the placebo effect in releasing it, but rather to reiterate that the industry as a whole can be problematic from the POV of the consumer.
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Old 24.05.2012, 15:10
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Re: Beliving in Reiki?

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The same thing about Reiki - you do not and should not believe in it blindly. But you can always try and check. If it works for you and you feel better and some of your problems are gone - great, and if not - find something else, perhaps this method is not for you.
It's still pretty different, we're easy to deceive, so you can say "oh just try it and see if it works for you", but it's a little bit of a con.

Many things work for us, many many things, most of them we don't know about, most don't involve some guy who wants to be magic. What that little line does is lock you in to one cons sham solution, and isolate you from others experiences. Like gamblers, we're mostly aware of our successes, we never take note of the failures, and that's what that little line is for. You can look at a room of gamblers and see the majority of them losing, or you can look at your winning streak and think you're a real clever guy. It works for you.
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Old 24.05.2012, 15:19
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Re: Beliving in Reiki?

@ Lou - no arguments here. I have no issues with individual therapists, if they are ethical and transparent... I just find the industry suspect, on the whole.
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Old 24.05.2012, 15:21
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Re: Beliving in Reiki?

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Well, you do not have to believe in energy because there is nothing to believe in. The whole universe is made of energy.

As you can see in Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matter

"Fully 70% of the matter density in the universe appears to be in the form of dark energy. Twenty-six percent is dark matter. Only 4% is ordinary matter. So less than 1 part in 20 is made out of matter we have observed experimentally or described in the standard model of particle physics. Of the other 96%, apart from the properties just mentioned, we know absolutely nothing."

So only 4% is matter, which is by the way also a manifestation of energy, but this still has to be fully proven by quantum physicists.

As you can see in Wikipedia:
"For example, almost 99% of the mass of ordinary atomic matter consists of mass associated with the energy contributed by the gluons and the kinetic energy of the quarks which make up nucleons. In this view, most of the mass of ordinary "matter" consists of mass which is not contributed by matter particles."

Everything is energy. It's the only thing which really exists. So you really do not have to believe in it, it is not a religion.

Coming back to Reiki - well there are people who are more sensitive to the energy around us, however the problem is that there are a lot of people who do not have enough experience and some of them are simply crooks.
In my opinion it's quite difficult to find someone who can be really reliable.
But you can always try and find out by yourself.
But for sure it will not solve all the problems but I think it might help in some areas if you find the right person.
About "So only 4% is matter, which is by the way also a manifestation of energy, but this still has to be fully proven by quantum physicists."

e=mc(squared) is quite well known & demonstrable with certain big bombs.
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Old 24.05.2012, 15:26
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Re: Beliving in Reiki?

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The problem with that statement is that choosing a practitioner relies on reputation, not certification. There are no universally accepted standards for alternative (or complimentary, if you wish) therapist certifications, nor are their claims regulated in the same way as medical or pharmaceutical claims.

It is an un(der)regulated, generally unaccountable field - and one that by its very nature is problematic to regulate as it relies on generally unreproducible results and anecdotal evidence.

Some forms of therapy have been better tested than others (some herbal remedies are proven effective, acupuncture shows reproducible, physiological results, etc.) but most energy based therapies rely on anecdotal reportage and can't be distinguished from the placebo effect.

That's not to denigrate the power of the mind and the efficacy of the placebo effect in releasing it, but rather to reiterate that the industry as a whole can be problematic from the POV of the consumer.
About "It is an un(der)regulated, generally unaccountable field"

Well so is "regular" medicine.
How many practioners keep up to date & have their qualifications re-certified? How many cases are there of incorrect or (too) late diagnoses for which no-one is ever held accountable?
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Old 24.05.2012, 15:30
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Re: Beliving in Reiki?

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About "It is an un(der)regulated, generally unaccountable field"

Well so is "regular" medicine.
How many practioners keep up to date & have their qualifications re-certified? How many cases are there of incorrect or (too) late diagnoses for which no-one is ever held accountable?
There are problems, but there are standards and certifications for regular medicine, and clearly defined recourse to law should they fail to meet those standards.

Of course, there are cheats and frauds and incompetents, too - but generally an MD means that they went to a certified school and met standardized examination criteria.

Failure of the law to maintain standards in some cases is not the same as an unregulated industry.
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Old 24.05.2012, 15:38
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Re: Beliving in Reiki?

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It's still pretty different, we're easy to deceive, so you can say "oh just try it and see if it works for you", but it's a little bit of a con.

Many things work for us, many many things, most of them we don't know about, most don't involve some guy who wants to be magic. What that little line does is lock you in to one cons sham solution, and isolate you from others experiences. Like gamblers, we're mostly aware of our successes, we never take note of the failures, and that's what that little line is for. You can look at a room of gamblers and see the majority of them losing, or you can look at your winning streak and think you're a real clever guy. It works for you.
Well, of course, you are correct, no doubt about that. It is a difficult subject and people can be easily deceived. And it is very difficult to prove anything considering alternative (complimentary) therapies and you can only rely on practitioner's reputation as Occasional_Canadian mentioned.
Let's say you have a problem with sleeping, you decide to take alternative therapy and after some sessions, you sleep much better and feel better in the morning. So what really happened? Was it placebo effect or the therapist helped? Probably it is not the most important for you to know at the moment (however it would be nice to know), you are simply happy that your problem is gone. So somehow it worked for you in this particular case. That's what I mean. And what really happened "behind the scenes" - it's difficult to say for 100%. That's why traditional medicine is so distrustful about it because it can not be really proven. But the fact that it can not be proven today does not mean that it's not possible at all and perhaps someday in the future scientists will be able to prove it.
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Old 24.05.2012, 17:44
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Re: Beliving in Reiki?

absence of Evidence is not evidence of Absence!!!
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Old 24.05.2012, 18:01
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Re: Beliving in Reiki?

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Well, of course, you are correct, no doubt about that. It is a difficult subject and people can be easily deceived. And it is very difficult to prove anything considering alternative (complimentary) therapies and you can only rely on practitioner's reputation as Occasional_Canadian mentioned.
Let's say you have a problem with sleeping, you decide to take alternative therapy and after some sessions, you sleep much better and feel better in the morning. So what really happened? Was it placebo effect or the therapist helped? Probably it is not the most important for you to know at the moment (however it would be nice to know), you are simply happy that your problem is gone. So somehow it worked for you in this particular case. That's what I mean. And what really happened "behind the scenes" - it's difficult to say for 100%. That's why traditional medicine is so distrustful about it because it can not be really proven. But the fact that it can not be proven today does not mean that it's not possible at all and perhaps someday in the future scientists will be able to prove it.
OK, simply, we have lot's of alternative therapies, (that all still cost money), that have unproven results, all have widely different methodologies, but all seem to have the same affect as a placebo.

I don't go thinking, uhmmmm, maybe there really is something to this mystical stuff, and look instead to what they all have in common.

The placebo effect.

So yes you can say, ooooohhhh, it hasn't been disproven, there! But I can look at it and say, well no, but everything you say about how it works is clearly bullshit, as it works to exactly the same degree of effectiveness in other ways, without some woo merchant waving their hands around and claiming themselves to be magical.

So what you're getting is a placebo, with value added whatever bullshit fantasy you want to believe in. I'd have more respect for star trek themed therapy, which I'm willing to bet would be as effective as any other alternative therapy, but more honest, as no one would start claiming to actually be using technology from the star trek universe. People would recognise it's a fun thing to do perhaps, and good humour is good for health. But they wouldn't expect to be put in the medical scanner and be cured of cancer, because it's just a story.
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Old 24.05.2012, 18:57
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Re: Beliving in Reiki?

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OK, simply, we have lot's of alternative therapies, (that all still cost money), that have unproven results, all have widely different methodologies, but all seem to have the same affect as a placebo.

I don't go thinking, uhmmmm, maybe there really is something to this mystical stuff, and look instead to what they all have in common.

The placebo effect.

So yes you can say, ooooohhhh, it hasn't been disproven, there! But I can look at it and say, well no, but everything you say about how it works is clearly bullshit, as it works to exactly the same degree of effectiveness in other ways, without some woo merchant waving their hands around and claiming themselves to be magical.

So what you're getting is a placebo, with value added whatever bullshit fantasy you want to believe in. I'd have more respect for star trek themed therapy, which I'm willing to bet would be as effective as any other alternative therapy, but more honest, as no one would start claiming to actually be using technology from the star trek universe. People would recognise it's a fun thing to do perhaps, and good humour is good for health. But they wouldn't expect to be put in the medical scanner and be cured of cancer, because it's just a story.
Remember that some traditional medical therapies or cures are also not fully proven. Although provide some results but also have a lot of side effects. Not mentioning about pharmaceutic companies. Those are the guys who want to take money from you because money is the most important issue for them.

First it is necessary to answer a question: "What is placebo effect?"
It happens that a patient, after taking a placebo, instead of real treatment, actually gets better. This aspect of the human psyche is not fully understood.

And again from Wikipedia:
[...] The placebo effect is related to the perceptions and expectations of the patient; if the substance is viewed as helpful, it can heal, but, if it is viewed as harmful, it can cause negative effects, which is known as the nocebo effect.
[...] According to this theory, the belief that one has received an active treatment can produce the subjective changes thought to be produced by the real treatment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo

Another example because here we are talking about Reiki but there much are more alternative therapies. Let's take homeopathy for example. A child of my friend was sick. He used traditional treatment first. It did not work. Then he tried homeopathy. And it was successful. And what was I supposed to tell him? You are stupid because it is a bullshit? But how a placebo effect could affect a small child? So what helped in this case? Well, it is not for sure, but the final result was that the child was fine and that was the most important for him.

I know what you mean by referring to "woo merchant waving their hands around and claiming themselves to be magical". Of course there are many people like that trying to get some money but there are also some of them who are really talented and have some gifts which we do not understand.

Imagine a wireless communication a thousand years ago. It would be magical for those people at the time. But today it is perfectly normal. Almost everybody has a mobile phone.

The same with those therapies. Some of them are bullshit as you write but some of them are not. And it is the trick is find the right one and the right person which is quite difficult.
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