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  #41  
Old 16.11.2012, 14:19
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Re: More students getting a maturité means more unemployment

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About the percentage of foreign students, please.
Sure: 21.5% of Swiss University students are foreigners.
http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/d...ment.21609.xls
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  #42  
Old 16.11.2012, 14:55
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Re: More students getting a maturité means more unemployment

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Sorry, so the Swiss system is similar to the Mexico system?
I ask you because I green in Switzerland, but I ear of the Mexico education.
Thanks
I really have no idea if the school system on the whole is similar in the two countries, sorry. The one thing in which they are similar (and that was the point of my comment) is that both countries seem to place a high value on hands-on, practical training. At least in my field of work, for what I could see in the company I was interning at in Mexico City (a few "moons" ago...)
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Old 16.11.2012, 15:45
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Re: More students getting a maturité means more unemployment

thanks simon - that is a really cool xls...

as a working mom of a 3rd grader - all discussions on school/university and women at work interest me.

i still find it a little puzzling that my son has to know to work hard at school because he will have to study longer to get a degree he may only realize later he would want - but it's just a different system so I'll process it when I get there (but I'm losing sleep about it as the years pass, I must admit!)

more interesting are the stats that you posted - i'm not great with numbers, but there are quite a few deductions you can make from these:
1. most international students are female
2. many local students must be female as well

I'm the only working mom in my son's class - I won't start my complaints...but it's just weird...at work as well, many of the admin assistants are locals, but few of the 'professionals' are locals...

where do all the qualified women go - they spent years in a very difficult system, to achieve these qualifications - and now they are all at home? if that's the case i seriously take my hat off to them - to put so much effort into something that you will only have for a few years has to take loads of self discipline!
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  #44  
Old 16.11.2012, 16:14
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Re: More students getting a maturité means more unemployment

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more interesting are the stats that you posted - i'm not great with numbers, but there are quite a few deductions you can make from these:
1. most international students are female
2. many local students must be female as well

I'm the only working mom in my son's class - I won't start my complaints...but it's just weird...at work as well, many of the admin assistants are locals, but few of the 'professionals' are locals...

where do all the qualified women go - they spent years in a very difficult system, to achieve these qualifications - and now they are all at home? if that's the case i seriously take my hat off to them - to put so much effort into something that you will only have for a few years has to take loads of self discipline!
It's a bit of a problem. Most women stop working when they get pregnant and only return years later to the workforce in a part-time position, even if they had good career prospects. I have met quite a few Swiss women who study subjects they are interested in (very high % humanities) but never intend to really make a career of as they want kids later on. I really don't get that mindset, but it seems quite prevalent with younger Swiss women, few truly want to work hard and achieve something on their own... In some ways they are more conservative and less ambitious than their mother's generation.

2'290'000 men are full- or part-time employed compared to 1'486'200 women. (65%)

On the one hand it's a massive waste of resources to study at University and never apply your knowledge and skills, on the other hand you can't force women to study engineering and go back to work after birth, people have a choice...

I wonder what would happen if Swiss Universities were much more expensive (or less subsidized) but with readily available student loans without interest... the Swiss fertility rate would probably drop to Japanese levels.

Anyway, it's something I struggle to really understand as well.
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Old 19.11.2012, 10:57
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Re: More students getting a maturité means more unemployment

As a mother of 3 kids in the local Swiss German system and a (very) part time worker, I can tell you that I could (and would) work a lot more if the school system didn't make it virtually impossible to do so. We all know the problem -- there is no standard 9-3:30 school day. If you have no family to help take up the slack or a partner who equally works part time, there is little that realistically can be done. I can only speculate why the government chose this but my best guess is that Swiss society values stability over everything else. The government can say "the country is so safe that even a 4 year-old can walk alone" and this is best achieved by essentially forcing mothers to stay home. There is no glass ceiling for women without children. But there is a reinforced cement ceiling for mothers. Why Swiss women put up with this is beyond my understanding.
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  #46  
Old 19.11.2012, 11:17
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Re: More students getting a maturité means more unemployment

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It's a bit of a problem. Most women stop working when they get pregnant and only return years later to the workforce in a part-time position, even if they had good career prospects. I have met quite a few Swiss women who study subjects they are interested in (very high % humanities) but never intend to really make a career of as they want kids later on. I really don't get that mindset, but it seems quite prevalent with younger Swiss women, few truly want to work hard and achieve something on their own... In some ways they are more conservative and less ambitious than their mother's generation.

2'290'000 men are full- or part-time employed compared to 1'486'200 women. (65%)

On the one hand it's a massive waste of resources to study at University and never apply your knowledge and skills, on the other hand you can't force women to study engineering and go back to work after birth, people have a choice...

I wonder what would happen if Swiss Universities were much more expensive (or less subsidized) but with readily available student loans without interest... the Swiss fertility rate would probably drop to Japanese levels.

Anyway, it's something I struggle to really understand as well.
This makes zero sense to me. I know that currently society likes to make child-reading a maternal thing over a parent thing.

I can't imagine anything worse than spending my best years studying only do find myself at home with kids. I'm sure some people want that, but why bother with university then?

To some of us, the idea of staying home with children all day is akin to being locked up in a torture device meant to extract all brain power.
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Old 19.11.2012, 12:13
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Re: More students getting a maturité means more unemployment

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This makes zero sense to me. I know that currently society likes to make child-reading a maternal thing over a parent thing.

I can't imagine anything worse than spending my best years studying only do find myself at home with kids. I'm sure some people want that, but why bother with university then?
Higher education is so much more than a means to a career. Certainly, it is a valuable thing for mothers (and fathers) to be educated? In fact, I can think of no better use of the lessons learned through higher education (both academic and otherwise) to help us parent with wisdom. It is not like a woman goes brain-dead the moment she steps off the 9-5 ladder to be a stay-at-home parent (though, granted, it is not for everyone). It is a job best done with creativity, community involvement, and continuous self-improvement and education. It is also a job, like any other, that is as fulfilling as you make it. As for it being the end of a career - I have known many women whose careers only took off after staying home with children gave them an opportunity to step out of the narrow full time/corporate/professional box they had been in.

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  #48  
Old 19.11.2012, 15:44
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Re: More students getting a maturité means more unemployment

[QUOTE=simon_ch;1718276]Most women stop working when they get pregnant and only return years later to the workforce in a part-time position, even if they had good career prospects.
I really don't get that mindset, but it seems quite prevalent with younger Swiss women, few truly want to work hard and achieve something on their own... In some ways they are more conservative and less ambitious than their mother's generation. [QUOTE]

I think the reason is simple for many. The young parents grew up with a stay-at-home-mum. This is what they knew, this is what they liked and that's why they want their children to have the same. To experience the same nice childhood! Many who initially didn't want to go back to work would like to after a while because they realise that it's not only great. However it is also not always possible. Often you would have to go back 80% after 3 months in order to keep your job - I know I wouldn't want to do that if I don't have to (financial wise). So I can really see both sides.

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As a mother of 3 kids in the local Swiss German system and a (very) part time worker, I can tell you that I could (and would) work a lot more if the school system didn't make it virtually impossible to do so. We all know the problem -- there is no standard 9-3:30 school day. If you have no family to help take up the slack or a partner who equally works part time, there is little that realistically can be done. I can only speculate why the government chose this but my best guess is that Swiss society values stability over everything else. The government can say "the country is so safe that even a 4 year-old can walk alone" and this is best achieved by essentially forcing mothers to stay home. There is no glass ceiling for women without children. But there is a reinforced cement ceiling for mothers. Why Swiss women put up with this is beyond my understanding.
As stated above! It's mostly a choice. You may not agree but it's a choice they made. Furthermore most schools now have "Blockzeit" which means that they are in school every day from time x to time z. Believe it or not it used to be a lot worse when I was young! But it is possible, even without families. You can get together with other mums and they look after your child one day after school / for lunch together with their own child and look after both children another day. We did that when I was young and that worked perfectly fine as well.

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This makes zero sense to me. I know that currently society likes to make child-reading a maternal thing over a parent thing.

I can't imagine anything worse than spending my best years studying only do find myself at home with kids. I'm sure some people want that, but why bother with university then?

To some of us, the idea of staying home with children all day is akin to being locked up in a torture device meant to extract all brain power.
While this might be true for some women it's not for others. I know many who enjoy their time at home a lot. Maybe it's a cultural thing but to me it makes no sense to have children if both parents want to continue working full time. If you have children enjoy the time with them once they are small, they grow up so fast and you can't change the time back afterwards. You can always increase your working days as they grow up. As said this is a personal decision but many (Swiss) women think the same than I do...

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Higher education is so much more than a means to a career. Certainly, it is a valuable thing for mothers (and fathers) to be educated? In fact, I can think of no better use of the lessons learned through higher education (both academic and otherwise) to help us parent with wisdom. It is not like a woman goes brain-dead the moment she steps off the 9-5 ladder to be a stay-at-home parent (though, granted, it is not for everyone). It is a job best done with creativity, community involvement, and continuous self-improvement and education. It is also a job, like any other, that is as fulfilling as you make it. As for it being the end of a career - I have known many women whose careers only took off after staying home with children gave them an opportunity to step out of the narrow full time/corporate/professional box they had been in.
I agree with you! An intelligent parent has never done any harm to a child. Let them see that you read books and newspaper. Talk about politics at home. Read stories to them. Encourage them to read. Talk to them. Explain the world to them. They will profit and they will turn out as smart and interested children.
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Old 19.11.2012, 16:20
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Re: More students getting a maturité means more unemployment

I sincerely doubt that many Swiss men would opt to stay at home for an extended period of time. I'm sure they exist, but I personally dont know any stay at home dads here in Switzerland. And when I mean extended, I mean until the oldest child reaches high school because in many areas that have mittagstisch, this system ends with primary school. Not sure I would want my 13 year-old alone at lunch every day. So for many women, we're talking about more than a decade (add more years for every child) out of employment.

And I frankly don't see much harm in children staying at school from 9-3:30. It certainly would solve many childcare issues without inflicting a huge amount of psychological and educational trauma on the country's offspring. They might even appreciate mothers a bit more. I'm not sure allowing only childless women to work professionally (or seriously stress out the mothers who work) is much of a great thing for any society.

As for organizing informal daycare with local mothers, this is not a reliable solution for someone who needs to be at work -- too many variables.

But in the end, Swiss society gets to dictate what it wants and clearly women here vote to stay at home. I'm just not sure the next generation will make the same choice.
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Old 19.11.2012, 16:58
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Re: More students getting a maturité means more unemployment

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As stated above! It's mostly a choice. You may not agree but it's a choice they made. Furthermore most schools now have "Blockzeit" which means that they are in school every day from time x to time z. Believe it or not it used to be a lot worse when I was young!
I simply cannot in any logical way accept that statistically, a huge chunk of women want to study for years and then quit their jobs and stay at home while next to no men want to do this. This is clearly a case of societal push.

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While this might be true for some women it's not for others. I know many who enjoy their time at home a lot. Maybe it's a cultural thing but to me it makes no sense to have children if both parents want to continue working full time. If you have children enjoy the time with them once they are small, they grow up so fast and you can't change the time back afterwards. You can always increase your working days as they grow up. As said this is a personal decision but many (Swiss) women think the same than I do...
Yes, let's blame it on culture...? I'm from the most backward of all cultures where women are not even considered a whole human being and lose their children in divorce (actually: that can be a plus in terms of lowering poverty for single mothers). My mother never considered giving up her career. And quite frankly, I think this resulted in extremely resilient and independent children. How many people do I know that can't care for themselves years after moving out? These are usually children of a family where the household chores are spliced along gender lines. This makes no sense, how is a man less qualified to cook and a woman less qualified to rewire the house?

Now if this were a matter of personal choice and not societal dogma, then we would have a more equitable split wouldn't we? Maternal women would stay with their kids for a few years, while many men who are into family would do the same. If we go by genetics and assume men are less maternal and more into low-investment genetic propagation, we'd see fewer men doing this, but we'd never be in this situation where almost no men are. We would also see a lot of families splitting their time, where both parents are reducing their hours. THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN, so forgive me if I see this nothing more than DOGMA.
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Old 19.11.2012, 23:25
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Re: More students getting a maturité means more unemployment

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss_ne...l?cid=33977756

"Over the past 20 years, higher education has become more valued on the job market. A degree is worth 45 per cent more salary for men over an apprenticeship, and more than a third more for women."

Perhaps this adds something to the discussion.
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Old 19.11.2012, 23:35
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Re: More students getting a maturité means more unemployment

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As for it being the end of a career - I have known many women whose careers only took off after staying home with children gave them an opportunity to step out of the narrow full time/corporate/professional box they had been in.
Oh I do so beg to differ !
How many of us have had to make the call between a fulfilling career and enjoying motherhood.
Once you step off that train, it will keep on going and will just pass you by.
I chose my son many years ago, and it completely determined my professional future.

As for the subject being debated here, I'd very much appreciate seeing more local students get a higher education. It's a constant battle to row against the tide and protect your child (or children) from getting stuck in the "apprenticeship" grind.
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Old 20.11.2012, 07:47
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Re: More students getting a maturité means more unemployment

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Oh I do so beg to differ !
How many of us have had to make the call between a fulfilling career and enjoying motherhood.
Once you step off that train, it will keep on going and will just pass you by.
I chose my son many years ago, and it completely determined my professional future.

As for the subject being debated here, I'd very much appreciate seeing more local students get a higher education. It's a constant battle to row against the tide and protect your child (or children) from getting stuck in the "apprenticeship" grind.
This "apprenticeship grind" is obviously so bad that so far the Canton of Bern had to show and explain the system to several British and American delegations desperately seeking for advice to reduce their unemployment rate.
I never went to a University but made an commercial apprenticeship. In the last 35 years I haven't been unemployed for longer than a month neither in Switzerland nor abroad. For the last 25 years I worked in middle management in three countries. Right in the moment I am responsible for 22 employees and a budget of CHF 3.5 Mio.
Gosh, I love these academic snobs
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Old 20.11.2012, 13:49
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Re: More students getting a maturité means more unemployment

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Gosh, I love these academic snobs
I very much appreciate your appraisal, thank you.


Your accumulated years of experience and aptitude for your profession have obviously led you to a deserved managerial position.

Would the same professional path be possible or available today if you were at the start of your career ?
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Old 20.11.2012, 14:08
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Re: More students getting a maturité means more unemployment

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I very much appreciate your appraisal, thank you.


Your accumulated years of experience and aptitude for your profession have obviously led you to a deserved managerial position.

Would the same professional path be possible or available today if you were at the start of your career ?
You are very welcome!
I guess, it would be easier nowadays. I started my career (although I wouldn't call it like this) in the seventies. Being a women and a Swiss didn't help much in finding work outside the country. It took me ages to get a job abroad. I finally ended up in Spain due to fact that I spoke German and French and Spanish and had practical knowledge in bookkeeping.
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Old 20.11.2012, 14:31
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Re: More students getting a maturité means more unemployment

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I very much appreciate your appraisal, thank you.


Your accumulated years of experience and aptitude for your profession have obviously led you to a deserved managerial position.

Would the same professional path be possible or available today if you were at the start of your career ?
Yes absolutely, and I still find it a bit frustrating that there are so many missunderstandings in regards to apprenticeships even today..
A real life example from one of my closest friends:
Realschule - apprenticeship - Berufsmatura - University of applied Sciences - large multinational in a managerial position - head of sales in large Swiss technical company

I've mentioned it before: people with apprenticeships & degrees from technical Universities earn more on average than graduates from normal Universities. Universities of applied Sciences are booming, especially because the job market is getting tougher here as well and it is easier to find a good job that way.

And to back this up with some research from Germany (same tertiary education system as Switzerland)

"Schon beim Job-Einstieg punkten die Fachhochschüler. Wie eine Absolventenbefragung des „Spiegels“ 2007 ergab, finden FH-Absolventen quer durch fast alle Fachbereiche schneller eine Vollzeitstelle als ihre Kommilitonen von der Uni. Vor allem die begehrten Nachwuchsingenieure werden vom Fleck weg eingestellt. Auch danach geht es für FHler mit der Karriere schneller voran: Fünf Jahre nach Studienabschluss arbeiten laut einer HIS-Absolventenstudie rund ein Drittel der Fachhochschul-Alumni in einer Leitungsfunktion. Dies trifft nur auf ein Fünftel der Uni-Absolventen zu."

translation: Graduates from UAS get a full-time quicker in almost all subjects compared to Uni graduates. 5 years after graduation one third of UAS graduates have a leading position compared to one fifth of regular Uni graduates.

edit2:

http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/leben/bi...story/17995192

"Why attend University?" (instead of UAP)
Higher salaries, better job prospects and better position/pay five years after graduation in Switzerland.

Last edited by simon_ch; 20.11.2012 at 14:50.
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Old 20.11.2012, 16:36
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Re: More students getting a maturité means more unemployment

I guess people judge on the basis what they know and most probably think their education is superior to ours. This might be or not, I don't care. But I know, that in this country most of the young people have a fair chance to get a good education and a job. That's more than most of the rest of the world can offer nowadays
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Old 20.11.2012, 16:47
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Re: More students getting a maturité means more unemployment

Wait, I thought girls only went to university to find husbands?

Kidding!!

This turn in the thread just made me think of the movie Mona Lisa Smile.
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Old 20.11.2012, 17:18
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Re: More students getting a maturité means more unemployment

Interesting turns this thread has taken!

I think the big issue of concern is not about whether the apprenticeship path is a good path - because it obviously works extremely well for many people - but the fact that the university path is ruled out, or at least made more arduous, very early in a students career and based on seemingly arbitrary standards. There are many students who come into their own late in secondary school, for example, and if they decide they want to purse studies in one of the academic fields taught in universities, it will be a tough process.
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Old 20.11.2012, 17:29
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Re: More students getting a maturité means more unemployment

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Interesting turns this thread has taken!

I think the big issue of concern is not about whether the apprenticeship path is a good path - because it obviously works extremely well for many people - but the fact that the university path is ruled out, or at least made more arduous, very early in a students career and based on seemingly arbitrary standards. There are many students who come into their own late in secondary school, for example, and if they decide they want to purse studies in one of the academic fields taught in universities, it will be a tough process.
That is certainly true, but Swiss Universities in general want to raise their standards, not lower it. Generally easier access to the maturité won't help. I think I would welcome the abolishment of the cantonal quotas, but at the same time the level of education should not be lowered.
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