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Old 01.11.2012, 17:09
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More students getting a maturité means more unemployment

At least, I think that is what this interview (in French) with the Federal Minister of the Economy says: http://www.24heures.ch/suisse/johann...story/27133119

I'd love to hear feedback from anyone who can get the subtleties of his arguments better than I can! And is there actually a basis for his statements? I agree with the first commenter who wonders why the country has to import so many highly educated workers if this is true. Are the universities not training for the fields that have openings?
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Old 01.11.2012, 17:25
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Re: More students getting a maturité means more unemployment

We have wondered that ourselves, regarding importing highly qualified people - wouldn't it make more sense to drop the standards a little bit and let more Swiss go to University?
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Old 01.11.2012, 17:43
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Re: More students getting a maturité means more unemployment

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We have wondered that ourselves, regarding importing highly qualified people - wouldn't it make more sense to drop the standards a little bit and let more Swiss go to University?
Well, they're also importing unqualified people. So I don't see where this argument is taking us.
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Old 01.11.2012, 18:09
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Re: More students getting a maturité means more unemployment

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Well, they're also importing unqualified people. So I don't see where this argument is taking us.
Especially as the unemployment rate is one of the lowest in the world. The education system seems to "produce" pretty much the people the economy needs. In other European countries there are masses of people holding a degree who are unable to find an adequate job. It cannot be in the interest of Switzerland to copy their example, can it?
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Old 01.11.2012, 18:11
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Re: More students getting a maturité means more unemployment

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We have wondered that ourselves, regarding importing highly qualified people - wouldn't it make more sense to drop the standards a little bit and let more Swiss go to University?
No! that would be a stupid idea. There is a correlation between a high rate of A-levels/maturité/Matur/Abi and unemployment - just look at the number of maturité students and unemployment rate in the neighbouring countries. What he said - and I agree completely - is that one of the reasons Switzerland is less touched by the current crisis compared to the rest of Europe is that in Switzerland people find a job once they leave university. There are no taxi drivers in Switzerland that studied medicine likes there is in many other countries in Europe. Only few students choose the route to University, the rest chooses to learn a profession. With that system, referred to as "duales Bildungssystem" or "system dual de la formation professionelle (dual education system), most people continue their education while they are already working (apprenticeship).

Unlike in other European countries an apprenticeship is not looked down upon in Switzerland. This is very important. An apprenticeship is nothing bad and the fact that you do not need an University degree in order to get a well-paid job is indeed one of the reason why Switzerland faces less problem with unemployed young people compared to other European countries. Other countries (like Austria or Germany) also offer apprenticeships but for example in Germany you need an Abitur for many of them. Many CEOs of Swiss companies never went to University. They did an apprenticeship and afterwards completed their education with further studies.

Also with a Berufsmatura you can enter the University of Applied Sciences and even the "normal" Universities afterwards if you want. This gives students the possibility to work before they study and then they know that they want to study and what they want to study. Which leads them to being better students and well-rounded workers once they are done with University!

So no, I don't think that Switzerland should change this system, not at all!
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Old 01.11.2012, 18:15
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Re: More students getting a maturité means more unemployment

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Especially as the unemployment rate is one of the lowest in the world. The education system seems to "produce" pretty much the people the economy needs. In other European countries there are masses of people holding a degree who are unable to find an adequate job. It cannot be in the interest of Switzerland to copy their example, can it?
Well, it obviously doesn't produce enough people in certain categories - doctors, computer scientists, etc. - that require university degrees or there wouldn't be so many coming in from other countries.
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Old 01.11.2012, 18:22
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Re: More students getting a maturité means more unemployment

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Well, it obviously doesn't produce enough people in certain categories - doctors, computer scientists, etc. - that require university degrees or there wouldn't be so many coming in from other countries.
On the same time it does not produce enough builders, cleaners, farm workers, etc. In fact it does not produce enough people in any area. The reason is that Switzerland's economy is growing faster than the its growth of population can support. Thus Switzerland has to import workers from abroad.
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Old 01.11.2012, 18:41
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Re: More students getting a maturité means more unemployment

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No! that would be a stupid idea. There is a correlation between a high rate of A-levels/maturité/Matur/Abi and unemployment - just look at the number of maturité students and unemployment rate in the neighbouring countries.
...
No. Germany e.g. has a very low unemployment rate among youngsters, and education in many fields - not all but many - is far better (that's why immigrants get good jobs).


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What he said - and I agree completely - is that one of the reasons Switzerland is less touched by the current crisis compared to the rest of Europe is that in Switzerland people find a job once they leave university. There are no taxi drivers in Switzerland that studied medicine likes there is in many other countries in Europe.
...
Well don't exaggerate, they can and they do always join Switzerland instead of taxi driving. Switzerland is btw not really doing fine, however it's doing better than some of its neighbors, as it's still and especially now an immigration country, has luck in its industrial segmentation (like high end fine mechanics being the key niche), real estate bubble didn't explode yet and cheap labor from abroad. Which can all change.


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Unlike in other European countries an apprenticeship is not looked down upon in Switzerland. This is very important. An apprenticeship is nothing bad and the fact that you do not need an University degree in order to get a well-paid job is indeed one of the reason why Switzerland faces less problem with unemployed young people compared to other European countries. Other countries (like Austria or Germany) also offer apprenticeships but for example in Germany you need an Abitur for many of them. Many CEOs of Swiss companies never went to University. They did an apprenticeship and afterwards completed their education with further studies.
...
I agree, but if that means that there is not enough skilled labor from inside the country, that's too scrooge imho. As the situation abroad (linked e.g. to the Euro exchange rate) may change, this is risky. Apart from the fact that one relies on the education abroad.


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Also with a Berufsmatura you can enter the University of Applied Sciences and even the "normal" Universities afterwards if you want. This gives students the possibility to work before they study and then they know that they want to study and what they want to study. Which leads them to being better students and well-rounded workers once they are done with University!
...
OK, but only because one side in the education system works out fine (i.e. should be considered as normal) doesn't mean that one shouldn't try to fill gaps and real quality lacks in other parts of Switzerland's education system. And some of those gaps are as big as panzers.

My two cents.
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Old 01.11.2012, 18:52
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Re: More students getting a maturité means more unemployment

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On the same time it does not produce enough builders, cleaners, farm workers, etc. In fact it does not produce enough people in any area. The reason is that Switzerland's economy is growing faster than the its growth of population can support. Thus Switzerland has to import workers from abroad.
they should just instruct everybody to shag around more. would fix the problem and improve morale, all round!
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Old 01.11.2012, 19:55
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Re: More students getting a maturité means more unemployment

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they should just instruct everybody to shag around more. would fix the problem and improve morale, all round!
A bit of a lag there, where they have to pay for education.
Might be a bit quicker if more women worked. Of course, that means less social stigma to taking a child on public transport in rush hour, and longer opening times so people who work can shop......
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Old 01.11.2012, 20:17
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Re: More students getting a maturité means more unemployment

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On the same time it does not produce enough builders, cleaners, farm workers, etc. In fact it does not produce enough people in any area. The reason is that Switzerland's economy is growing faster than the its growth of population can support. Thus Switzerland has to import workers from abroad.
Ah, so it seems that the point you are making is that X% of doctors are immigrants, and X% of computer scientists are immigrants, and X% of builders are immigrants, etc., where X is the same number, right? And I don't mean to imply that the number is exactly the same, but that the number of immigrants holding low education jobs relative to the total number of that type of job in CH, is proportional to the number of immigrants holding high education jobs relative to the total number of that type of job in CH. If that is what you are saying, is it accurate?

My impression has been that Switzerland imports a greater % of highly educated workers than of workers to fill jobs that don't require much education, but maybe that is incorrect. Do you know of any statistics that might shed some light on this?
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Old 01.11.2012, 20:19
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Re: More students getting a maturité means more unemployment

I just hope that my kids will be able to attend Uni, if they want to, and if we are still here...
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Old 02.11.2012, 10:17
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Re: More students getting a maturité means more unemployment

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At least, I think that is what this interview (in French) with the Federal Minister of the Economy says: http://www.24heures.ch/suisse/johann...story/27133119
I find this whole statement of Ammann very bizarre, especially given this article which also came out this week.
http://worldradio.ch/wrs/news/switze...es.shtml?33117

Basically it says, Switzerland has the highest world rate of foreigners in Swiss universities (56.7%). Thus more foreigners in Swiss universties than Swiss. And if Amman says we need more trades than university people for unemployment, why are they training so so many people in the swiss Universities? Ok, some go back home, but I think most think they will enter the swiss job market thereafter, especially with the new law on allowing them to stay and look for a job. So why not allow more to obtain the maturity Mr. Ammann, and let swiss taxpayer money fund the further eduction of the Swiss rather than foreigners?

Anyhow, this just doesn't add up, have one policy going in one direction, and another in the other direction. It is clear the primary/secondary eduction has not caught up to real world demands and needs. Yes, there should be no stigma about going the apprenticship trade routes, but by not allowing a large percent of the population to continue their education if they have the desire and want, then essentially doing a disservice to their future competitiveness and needs of the 21st century in my opinion.
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Old 02.11.2012, 11:02
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Re: More students getting a maturité means more unemployment

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My impression has been that Switzerland imports a greater % of highly educated workers than of workers to fill jobs that don't require much education, but maybe that is incorrect. Do you know of any statistics that might shed some light on this?
That is not correct. Despite the fact that a higher proportion of recent immigrants have a tertiary education than the local population (both Swiss and foreign), a small majority of immigrants still "only" have a secondary education.

And, as others have pointed out, the Swiss economy is simply too big for its population, hence the need for immigration on all professional levels, not just doctors and scientists.

Inflating the quota of University graduates can only be done by lowering the requirements, and what happens when the labour market is flooded by a majority of mediocre academics can be seen in Spain and Portugal, but also France where youth unemployment is dramatic despite the shortage of qualified workers.

Last edited by simon_ch; 02.11.2012 at 11:14.
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Old 02.11.2012, 11:08
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Re: More students getting a maturité means more unemployment

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I find this whole statement of Ammann very bizarre, especially given this article which also came out this week.
http://worldradio.ch/wrs/news/switze...es.shtml?33117

Basically it says, Switzerland has the highest world rate of foreigners in Swiss universities (56.7%). Thus more foreigners in Swiss universties than Swiss. And if Amman says we need more trades than university people for unemployment, why are they training so so many people in the swiss Universities? Ok, some go back home, but I think most think they will enter the swiss job market thereafter, especially with the new law on allowing them to stay and look for a job. So why not allow more to obtain the maturity Mr. Ammann, and let swiss taxpayer money fund the further eduction of the Swiss rather than foreigners?

Anyhow, this just doesn't add up, have one policy going in one direction, and another in the other direction. It is clear the primary/secondary eduction has not caught up to real world demands and needs. Yes, there should be no stigma about going the apprenticship trade routes, but by not allowing a large percent of the population to continue their education if they have the desire and want, then essentially doing a disservice to their future competitiveness and needs of the 21st century in my opinion.
I don't know where you have your numbers from but 56.7% is far off the mark. 12% for BA, 25% for MA, and they want to reduce that number, they are not educating them for the economy, they simply can't discourage the ever increasing number of foreign students who want to study here. It is absolutely not clear in what way secondary education "has not caught up to the real world demands and needs", ask any industry representative and they will completely disagree with you. The opposite is true, they want more qualified, intelligent young people applying for technical (and challenging!) apprenticeships instead of having them all go to University.

If the labour market is any indication a technical apprenticeship in combination with a degree from a University of applied sciences is better paid on average than a regular Uni degree. Universities of applied sciences are also gaining rapidly in popularity, and are increasingly unable to cope with the ever increasing demand.
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Old 02.11.2012, 11:20
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Re: More students getting a maturité means more unemployment

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and longer opening times so people who work can shop......
No, Long shop opening times so "people who work can shop" is code for "have a big difference between rich and poor so the poor can kiss the feet of the rich". Switzerland doesn't work that way. The difference between rich and poor is less marked than in other countries. People are more equal. The poor have the same right to their weekends as the rich. That is ultimately what makes Switzerland such a succesful society. They don't try to stick as many people into university as possible but they try to honour the value of every individual as much as possible. That's a big difference.
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Old 02.11.2012, 11:25
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Re: More students getting a maturité means more unemployment

This thread shows the importance of the discussion - and gives even more weight to the interview in which he stated that we need to explain the Swiss education system to "foreigners" or "expats" living in Switzerland.

If I can choose, my children will NOT attend university but do a challenging apprenticeship combined with a Berufsmatrua / maturité professionelle and attend university of applied sciences afterwards - just as I did! That way they can work and don't write their first application ever at the age of 25....If they want, they can then follow their career with degree at the university. I got my Bachelor at the university of applied sciences and my Master at the university - this is possible in Switzerland and this is way better than to just study at the university - at least in my opinion.
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Old 02.11.2012, 11:27
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Re: More students getting a maturité means more unemployment

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That is not correct. Despite the fact that a higher proportion of recent immigrants have a tertiary education than the local population (both Swiss and foreign), a small majority of immigrants still "only" have a secondary education.

And, as others have pointed out, the Swiss economy is simply too big for its population, hence the need for immigration on all professional levels, not just doctors and scientists.

Inflating the quota of University graduates can only be done by lowering the requirements, and what happens when the labour market is flooded by a majority of mediocre academics can be seen in Spain and Portugal, but also France where youth unemployment is dramatic despite the shortage of qualified workers.
Thanks, but this does not answer the question I was trying to ask - sorry if I was not clear. Let me try again: Approximately 20% of Swiss get a university degree, I think, and about 80% do not. So, do 20% of immigrants have university degrees and 80% not? If as you say, a "small majority" of immigrants have "only" a secondary education, it seems like Switzerland is importing a much higher % of its highly education work force than of its total workforce. It seems highly skewed.

I also wonder if the people with university degrees from countries such as France, Spain, Italy, and Portugal, that are being hired in Switzerland today are more employable and competent than would be additional Swiss if the maturité standards were lowered slightly?
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Old 02.11.2012, 11:40
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Re: More students getting a maturité means more unemployment

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Thanks, but this does not answer the question I was trying to ask - sorry if I was not clear. Let me try again: Approximately 20% of Swiss get a university degree, I think, and about 80% do not. So, do 20% of immigrants have university degrees and 80% not? If as you say, a "small majority" of immigrants have "only" a secondary education, it seems like Switzerland is importing a much higher % of its highly education work force than of its total workforce. It seems highly skewed.

I also wonder if the people with university degrees from countries such as France, Spain, Italy, and Portugal, that are being hired in Switzerland today are more employable and competent than would be additional Swiss if the maturité standards were lowered slightly?
I did in fact answer your question: previously immigrants to CH had a lower % of tertiary degrees, now they have a higher %. But in absolute terms immigrants without a tertiary education are still in the majority. It is not highly skewed as you suggest as the difference is not that big.

I don't get your second argument, immigrants don't replace the Swiss in the labour market, they simply reduce a labour shortage that has for a long time inflated graduate salaries. The number of jobs are not finite (the French had to learn that lesson the hard way), as the economy grows so does the demand for labour.
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Old 02.11.2012, 13:01
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Re: More students getting a maturité means more unemployment

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I did in fact answer your question: previously immigrants to CH had a lower % of tertiary degrees, now they have a higher %. But in absolute terms immigrants without a tertiary education are still in the majority. It is not highly skewed as you suggest as the difference is not that big.
According to statistics in a recent Tages Anzeiger article, in Zuerich for example, over 50% of recent german immigrants have a university degree. But only ~10-15% of the local population gets to Matura and University.

It's cheap and risk free to import highly skilled workers when you need them.

It's also unfair as many of the imported highly skilled workers wouldn't have passed the artificially high barrier in CH for getting into the university track.

Funny thing though, their own childs will be subject to local restrictive tracking rules and will therefore likely get a lower degree than their parents!
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