Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Family matters/health  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12.11.2013, 18:42
natcam's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Zurich
Posts: 38
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 33 Times in 10 Posts
natcam has no particular reputation at present
Incorrect invoices by a doctor

Hi,

I had a lengthy consultation with a doctor (a specialist, not a GP) recently. It was very unproductive, no tests were made, no new treatment prescribed. Basically it was 50 minutes of me being distressed and the doctor declaring he can't help me.

Afterwards, I received an invoice which was clearly incorrect: it stated a particular kind of service was performed (it wasn't). I challenged that, and received another invoice, still mentioning another service that didn't take place. I suspect the doctor can't justify charging me for the full 50 minutes without making stuff up.

I wonder where I should report him for falsifying invoices? I thought about my insurance company, but since I'm still below my deductible, I doubt if they'd care. This is not about the money BTW, I just think the doctor shouldn't be able to get away with it.

Thanks,

natcam
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12.11.2013, 19:00
nigelr's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Aargau
Posts: 1,709
Groaned at 117 Times in 58 Posts
Thanked 2,136 Times in 940 Posts
nigelr has a reputation beyond reputenigelr has a reputation beyond reputenigelr has a reputation beyond reputenigelr has a reputation beyond reputenigelr has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Incorrect invoices by a doctor

Just tell the doctor that you don't mind paying the bill but that you want an invoice that reflects what actually happened. Otherwise just pay it and walk away, I don't think it is worth reporting anybody for, it will just become a major headache for you which you probably don't need.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12.11.2013, 19:01
fatmanfilms's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 17,946
Groaned at 285 Times in 234 Posts
Thanked 15,434 Times in 8,578 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Incorrect invoices by a doctor

Quote:
View Post
Hi,

I had a lengthy consultation with a doctor (a specialist, not a GP) recently. It was very unproductive, no tests were made, no new treatment prescribed. Basically it was 50 minutes of me being distressed and the doctor declaring he can't help me.

Afterwards, I received an invoice which was clearly incorrect: it stated a particular kind of service was performed (it wasn't). I challenged that, and received another invoice, still mentioning another service that didn't take place. I suspect the doctor can't justify charging me for the full 50 minutes without making stuff up.

I wonder where I should report him for falsifying invoices? I thought about my insurance company, but since I'm still below my deductible, I doubt if they'd care. This is not about the money BTW, I just think the doctor shouldn't be able to get away with it.

Thanks,

natcam
You claim it took 50 minutes , why did you just not walk out if it was a waste of time? I guess the bill was about 250, what did you expect it to be?.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank fatmanfilms for this useful post:
  #4  
Old 12.11.2013, 19:25
natcam's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Zurich
Posts: 38
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 33 Times in 10 Posts
natcam has no particular reputation at present
Re: Incorrect invoices by a doctor

Thanks for replies.

@nigelr
I did tell the doctor once I want a correct invoice, got another incorrect one, I sort of think he had his chance.

@fatmanfilms
In the hindsight I should have walked out, but I didn't. Doesn't mean I should pay an incorrect invoice. Again, the money is not as important as the principle.

I'd still like to know what is the correct authority to report falsified invoices to.

natcam
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12.11.2013, 20:24
Vlh22's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: UK, formerly Vaud
Posts: 1,322
Groaned at 3 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 1,983 Times in 642 Posts
Vlh22 has a reputation beyond reputeVlh22 has a reputation beyond reputeVlh22 has a reputation beyond reputeVlh22 has a reputation beyond reputeVlh22 has a reputation beyond reputeVlh22 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Incorrect invoices by a doctor

Sorry you had a bad experience. I hope you manage to find a doctor who can help you.

According to this page (which is in French - I don't speak German I'm afraid), if you want to contest a medical bill you first of all contact the health professional who sent you the bill (which you have done). If you are not 'convinced', you should send the contested bill to your health insurance and ask them to check it. Finally, there are cantonal medical associations who provide mediation.

Google translate, polished by me:

Quote:
What to do when disputing a medical bill?

It necessary first to go to the doctor for an explanation of the invoice. If this is not convincing, it is possible to send it to your health insurance who are required to verify it. Finally, the cantonal associations of doctors offer mediation bodies in the field of fees. These procedures are in principle free.
Hope that helps.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank Vlh22 for this useful post:
  #6  
Old 12.11.2013, 20:25
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 10,658
Groaned at 351 Times in 302 Posts
Thanked 13,882 Times in 7,635 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Incorrect invoices by a doctor

Quote:
View Post
Thanks for replies.

@nigelr
I did tell the doctor once I want a correct invoice, got another incorrect one, I sort of think he had his chance.

@fatmanfilms
In the hindsight I should have walked out, but I didn't. Doesn't mean I should pay an incorrect invoice. Again, the money is not as important as the principle.

I'd still like to know what is the correct authority to report falsified invoices to.

natcam

I assume no witnesses?
It will be your word against his - who do you think will be believed?


p.s. A neighbour of mine just got billed 2,500CHF by a hospital for looking at his broken nose; he was told it is a standard fixed charge regardless of the work done. Which in his case was practically no work; as is usual with broken noses.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank marton for this useful post:
  #7  
Old 12.11.2013, 20:34
3Wishes's Avatar
Moderately Amused
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Bern area
Posts: 9,289
Groaned at 52 Times in 50 Posts
Thanked 14,470 Times in 6,695 Posts
3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Incorrect invoices by a doctor

Quote:
View Post
I'd still like to know what is the correct authority to report falsified invoices to.
Just my two rappen here...Did you specify what you expected to see on the second bill? I think before you start making accusations as serious as falsification, it would be best to be clear on what you do expect to be on the bill and give him a chance to respond to those expectations.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank 3Wishes for this useful post:
  #8  
Old 13.11.2013, 11:41
natcam's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Zurich
Posts: 38
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 33 Times in 10 Posts
natcam has no particular reputation at present
Re: Incorrect invoices by a doctor

@vlh22

Thanks a lot, this was exactly what I was looking for.

I appreciate others' input as well.

Best wishes

natcam
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 13.11.2013, 13:17
aSwissInTheUS's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich area
Posts: 10,294
Groaned at 79 Times in 70 Posts
Thanked 15,580 Times in 6,912 Posts
aSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Incorrect invoices by a doctor

The simplest invoice would be:

1 x 00.0010 Konsultation, erste 5 Min. (Grundkonsultation)
8 x 00.0020 + Konsultation, jede weiteren 5 Min. (Konsultationszuschlag)
1 x 00.0030 + Konsultation, letzte 5 Min. (Konsultationszuschlag)

Total cost should be CHF 168.72

Just like the 15 minute simple consultation example from the Aerztekasse.

He may beef it up with some 00.0140. Ärztliche Leistung in Abwesenheit des Patienten (inkl. Aktenstudium), pro 5 Min.

But there are many other more options, see them all here http://onb.tarmedsuisse.ch/
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank aSwissInTheUS for this useful post:
  #10  
Old 13.11.2013, 15:40
natcam's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Zurich
Posts: 38
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 33 Times in 10 Posts
natcam has no particular reputation at present
Re: Incorrect invoices by a doctor

Indeed, but here's the root of the problem: only 2 units (10 minutes) of 00.0020 can be invoiced per session. That's why he's has to make stuff up to charge for the full 50.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank natcam for this useful post:
  #11  
Old 13.11.2013, 17:27
aSwissInTheUS's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich area
Posts: 10,294
Groaned at 79 Times in 70 Posts
Thanked 15,580 Times in 6,912 Posts
aSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Incorrect invoices by a doctor

Quote:
View Post
Indeed, but here's the root of the problem: only 2 units (10 minutes) of 00.0020 can be invoiced per session. That's why he's has to make stuff up to charge for the full 50.
"Diese Limitierung entfällt für elektronisch abrechnende Fachärzte"
No limitation if he (or his billing provider) offers an electronic bill for the insurance. Nearly every doctor does, because there are too many such limitations in the TarMed. Your doctor must be a very wierd guy.

http://www.aerztekasse.ch/de/p12001598.html
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 11.01.2019, 13:18
EastEnders's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: former Biennoise now in Belp
Posts: 1,829
Groaned at 10 Times in 9 Posts
Thanked 2,451 Times in 936 Posts
EastEnders has a reputation beyond reputeEastEnders has a reputation beyond reputeEastEnders has a reputation beyond reputeEastEnders has a reputation beyond reputeEastEnders has a reputation beyond reputeEastEnders has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Incorrect invoices by a doctor

For the very first time ever in my life, I complained to a doctor about his most recent bill....where he listed an examination he didn't do at all.



I wrote, as is my nature, a very nice and polite letter and asked them to explain why this examination is on the bill and send me please an updated bill.


Received the answer within a day....he'll waive the entire bill and asks me at the same time to look for another ENT now



I went for 22 years to his practice.....am stunned
Reply With Quote
The following 9 users would like to thank EastEnders for this useful post:
  #13  
Old 11.01.2019, 17:48
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Nyon
Posts: 1,693
Groaned at 65 Times in 44 Posts
Thanked 1,594 Times in 828 Posts
bowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Incorrect invoices by a doctor

Ask your local newspaper if they would be interested in the story.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank bowlie for this useful post:
  #14  
Old 11.01.2019, 17:52
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Leimbach, Zürich
Posts: 5,589
Groaned at 317 Times in 252 Posts
Thanked 6,152 Times in 3,102 Posts
EdwinNL has a reputation beyond reputeEdwinNL has a reputation beyond reputeEdwinNL has a reputation beyond reputeEdwinNL has a reputation beyond reputeEdwinNL has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Incorrect invoices by a doctor

I would inform the health insurance how your doctor acts. (what they do with it is up to them.)
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank EdwinNL for this useful post:
  #15  
Old 03.02.2019, 19:38
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Neuchatel
Posts: 22,869
Groaned at 544 Times in 416 Posts
Thanked 25,381 Times in 11,638 Posts
Odile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Incorrect invoices by a doctor

East Enders, have you reported him yet. On the TSR news, a documentary on news about many doctors inflating bills, and insurances working hard currently to find them out, prove the fraud and make them repay. Some have had to repay huge sums. They say about 2% of doctors are guilty of above.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Odile for this useful post:
  #16  
Old 03.02.2019, 19:48
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: close to the frontier
Posts: 855
Groaned at 89 Times in 58 Posts
Thanked 412 Times in 266 Posts
Clocker is considered knowledgeableClocker is considered knowledgeableClocker is considered knowledgeable
Re: Incorrect invoices by a doctor

Quote:
View Post
They say about 2% of doctors are guilty of above.
And those are only the ones that are found out.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 03.02.2019, 19:58
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Basel
Posts: 1,270
Groaned at 23 Times in 19 Posts
Thanked 743 Times in 443 Posts
Landers is considered knowledgeableLanders is considered knowledgeableLanders is considered knowledgeable
Re: Incorrect invoices by a doctor

I can imagine many bills are inflated to some extent or another. The hospital sends its bills directly to the insurance and they pay without question. I get copies of the amounts but never any description. Often it's many hundreds of francs with a "behandlung" date no where near any appointment. I guess it's for reviewing cases and planning but it often seems to be an awful lot.
A friend was once in for a UTI and the bill was 2000 CHF.


My last doctor's bill included two phone calls apparently made 3 days before the visit, which was a drop-in visit.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 04.02.2019, 09:45
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Ostschweiz
Posts: 7,463
Groaned at 248 Times in 211 Posts
Thanked 8,988 Times in 4,706 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Incorrect invoices by a doctor

Quote:
View Post
East Enders, have you reported him yet. On the TSR news, a documentary on news about many doctors inflating bills, and insurances working hard currently to find them out, prove the fraud and make them repay. Some have had to repay huge sums. They say about 2% of doctors are guilty of above.
The main problem there is the Kontrahierungszwang. Swiss mandatory health insurers have to pay the bills of every accredited medical doctor/practice. The risk alone of being completely refused by the insurers (certainly they'd be likely to react mostly the same, perhaps even share their data and decisions) would definitely reduce the extent of these kinds of frauds.

In addition, falsely billed items could have negative consequences if they occur unusually often. At this time they're just removed from the bill so there's no risk involved for those who intentionally try to defraud the patients. A simple measure would be that the amount falsely demanded would be not just removed but actually subtracted from the bill once the number of false claims exceeds a certain threshold.

Maybe five years ago the latest try to have that requirement removed was undertaken by the Bundesrat, but they failed. The pressure by FMH, the Swiss doctor's association, was too intense. You have one try to guess why that would be.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Urs Max for this useful post:
  #19  
Old 04.02.2019, 10:14
Today only's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Europe
Posts: 7,491
Groaned at 817 Times in 555 Posts
Thanked 9,211 Times in 4,364 Posts
Today only has a reputation beyond reputeToday only has a reputation beyond reputeToday only has a reputation beyond reputeToday only has a reputation beyond reputeToday only has a reputation beyond reputeToday only has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Incorrect invoices by a doctor

Quote:
View Post
They say about 2% of doctors are guilty of above.



You make me laugh...........only 2 %
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Today only for this useful post:
Reply

Tags
doctor, invoice, itemised bill




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Sub-letting and invoices Ace1 Housing in general 7 17.06.2012 17:33
Cablecom - erroneous invoices lil_ferret TV/internet/telephone 6 23.09.2011 17:32
EinzelFirma Invoices without Registration zuriguy Business & entrepreneur 3 10.05.2010 11:14
Late payment of invoices transition Employment 5 22.09.2008 01:13
Incorrect rep mark nickatbasel Forum support 9 20.08.2008 18:10


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 18:13.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0