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Old 26.01.2016, 16:42
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Re: Aggression in Swiss Primary Schools

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You see, the magic happens once you send the registered mail. In Switzerland this is the only way to resolve any conflict. Because it can lead to punishment of whoever receives mail and doesn't do anything.
It's a pretty sad state of affairs if it has to be dealt with like that. It would be nicer if the teachers could act in a more responsible manner.

Of course the other problem with having to do it this way is that the teacher can take it personally and make things difficult for your child and for you.

Yes, I've seen this here too.
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Old 26.01.2016, 16:47
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Re: Aggression in Swiss Primary Schools

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...But it's not...
Give it time. Inclusion in the English language is by recognised usage, especially in written form, as here.
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Old 26.01.2016, 16:51
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Re: Aggression in Swiss Primary Schools

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Give it time. Inclusion in the English language is by recognised usage, especially in written form, as here.
Possibly. It may be a long time though. I'd never heard of one case of work-place bullying before I arrived here but now it seems to be as common as taking a summer holiday.

And the school bullying seems much more prevalent than in the U.K, for example. (I can't speak for other countries).
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Old 26.01.2016, 17:08
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Re: Aggression in Swiss Primary Schools - not bullying

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That's normal here. I hear about it all the time.

It's strange that Switzerland has a particular word for bullying whether it's in the workplace or at school but no other countries feel the need: "Mobbing."

The teachers aren't interested in helping and most of the parents aren't concerned at all that their children are involved in it - well not concerned enough to do anything about it.
It's used in Norwegian and they have big media campaigns against it every year around school start.

The difference I noted here compared to Norway, is that the kids are somewhat encouraged to stand up for themselves, while in Norway physical violence is a big no-no and defending oneself is shunned upon. In addition, when there is a situation, attitudes towards how it can be solved and how much the adults will get involved vary widely.

We had very different experiences in Norway, here at the French School and here at a private Swiss (not international) school.

Norway: little girl at barnehage (day-care) keeps bugging our son, she bites him, hits him, calls him name and really never lets him be alone. The Troll, being a gentle giant, puts up with it for over a year, until one day he has enough and pushes her so she flies. Guess who got told off and drilled on "never be violent with your little friends", although when I picked him up the person in charge told me that the little witch had it coming? There was also a strong pressure for everyone to be friends with everyone, be conform, avoid all conflicts and keep feelings inside.

French School: Troll, now 5 and still much taller than the others in his class, has been repeatedly told by myself not to go to hard on anyone in order not to hurt his friend. That was before on of his classmates hit him on the nose and made him bleed. Reaction from the school: what reaction? Reaction from the dad: "I know, Little Prince loses it when he is frustrated, we send him to Kung Fu so he learns to channel his aggression". Really? Little Prince is just as aggressive, but way more effective... Teachers really never intervened to guide the kids and direct the group dynamic into a more positive direction, it was really the complete opposite of Norway.

Swiss private school: some bigger kids picked up on the Troll (6). Being as tall as an 8-9 year old, he kind of seems slow and childish to kids his own size, they don't always realise he's younger... I talk to the school, as he's afraid to go to camp because of one of the bigger boys who will be there. They arranged a class circle, where they discussed how he was intimidated by the bigger boys and was afraid to go to camp. The bigger boy in question came spontaneously to him, excused himself and said he would be his friend. They have been best buddies since October. Group dynamic is not forced, the kids can be friends with however they want, but the teachers are very strict about them being civil to each other and helping each other, especially the bigger kids helping the small ones. Whenever there is a conflict, they are encouraged to speak up for themselves and solve the problem without adulte interference, but we know that the teachers are there behind. They won't react to a bit of pushing and hitting, but won't let it degenerate. The kids are also encouraged to be themselves and not copy each other all the time.

It's all anecdotal experience from my part, of course, but we kind of feel that we've found the middle ground between pretending that violence and intimidation doesn't happen and the rule of the jungle.
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Old 26.01.2016, 17:38
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Re: Aggression in Swiss Primary Schools

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I
The difference I noted here compared to Norway, is that the kids are somewhat encouraged to stand up for themselves, while in Norway physical violence is a big no-no and defending oneself is shunned upon.
It really ought to be like that here if they insist on multi-age classes because children need to repeat years.

There can be two years difference in age between a couple of boys in the same class and due to physical development at that age, one child can seem a giant and much, much stronger than another.

And these kids are told to sort it out themselves? Give me break.

Talking about breaks - one kid was finally expelled from a school here after he broke a third child's arm.

Yes, it annoys me. Especially with the Swiss culture of not getting involved in fights on a more international scale.
Rather hypocritical thinking and acting in my opinion.
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Old 26.01.2016, 17:53
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Re: Aggression in Swiss Primary Schools

Yes, 'mobbing' has been a very big issue with our older children! And we've noticed bits of bullying even with the Kindergarten classes. I'm not sure if it's better/worse than other countries, but disturbing to watch nonetheless.
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Old 26.01.2016, 18:00
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Re: Aggression in Swiss Primary Schools

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It really ought to be like that here if they insist on multi-age classes because children need to repeat years.

There can be two years difference in age between a couple of boys in the same class and due to physical development at that age, one child can seem a giant and much, much stronger than another.

And these kids are told to sort it out themselves? Give me break.

Talking about breaks - one kid was finally expelled from a school here after he broke a third child's arm.

Yes, it annoys me. Especially with the Swiss culture of not getting involved in fights on a more international scale.
Rather hypocritical thinking and acting in my opinion.
It's not because they are kept behind, it's a small Montessori school where all the kids are in the same classroom and work each at their own pace, or more correctly put, the kids who are ahead of their age group can work with the older kids (haven't seen it go the other way, none of the bigger boys works with the wee ones). They are divided into groups for work, but spend the free-time together and the bigger ones are expected to help out the smaller ones. The idea being that it is important for kids to experience being in groups where they are the youngest, in the middle and oldest.

I wasn't sure at the beginning, but in our case it works very well. But as with everything else, it all depends on the individuals constituting the group; we have so far no problem kid, no idiot parent and no incompetent teacher, but I am well aware that the situation could change rapidly.
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Old 26.01.2016, 18:03
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Re: Aggression in Swiss Primary Schools

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The problem is that because mobbing exists in English, but with rather a different meaning, people assume that it is used in English speaking countries as it is used here.

However, since English is living language that is very mutable, the "work place bullying" definition is probably already part of standard English.
Indeed, if someone is mobbed it means they are surrounded by a mob of people. Not always bad. Whenever someone famous is recognised they are mobbed by people wanting to take their photos for example, 'mobbing' as a word I never heard before I moved here, and would never have connected with bullying (work-place or otherwise). In my work in the UK we were aware of the terms 'bullying in the workplace' and 'harassment' but never mobbing.

But anyway, my daughter a a problem with a boy in school, but she tells the teacher, and the teacher notices, he is now 'under observation', but she is not the only kid he teases.

I'm not sure things were better in the UK when I was a kid, I was bullied all through school and had an arrangement that I could see the head of house or head himself if I needed to report bullying and they would directly confront the children. As far as they were concerned it worked really well because I only had to go to the head twice... but that was more due to the seeing too I got on the way home from school than the bullying stopping. So, I was still bullied, the kids still got away with it and the school thought they were fantastic at anti-bullying measures. :/
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Old 26.01.2016, 18:04
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Re: Aggression in Swiss Primary Schools

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It really ought to be like that here if they insist on multi-age classes because children need to repeat years.

There can be two years difference in age between a couple of boys in the same class and due to physical development at that age, one child can seem a giant and much, much stronger than another.

And these kids are told to sort it out themselves? Give me break.

Talking about breaks - one kid was finally expelled from a school here after he broke a third child's arm.

Yes, it annoys me. Especially with the Swiss culture of not getting involved in fights on a more international scale.
Rather hypocritical thinking and acting in my opinion.
Btw, what was funny at the French school, is that the Troll was always targeted by the tiny kids. It was like they wanted to prove that they were as strong as he was even if they were much smaller. He's the type who doesn't care, so basically he just let them do their thing, but some of them just didn't get it up to a point where I had to tell him that possibly he should hit back one day, just not too hard because they are so small and fragile...

The worse is that they were all more or less friends, they just couldn't stop trying to pick up fights and the teachers never stopped them.
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Old 26.01.2016, 18:17
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Re: Aggression in Swiss Primary Schools

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It's a pretty sad state of affairs if it has to be dealt with like that. It would be nicer if the teachers could act in a more responsible manner.
it is absolutely sad; and it took me some time to get used to this. Initially, I tried the gentle approach, with gently pointing out, or email. Doesn't work really, I was not taken seriously. Having the patience of Dalai Lama, I persisted with trying gentle feedback, but this is just not the way to handle things.

Magic started with registered letter, dates and requests for action. Then everyone is suddenly so serious, and my word is suddenly somehow heard better.
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Old 26.01.2016, 18:56
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Re: Aggression in Swiss Primary Schools

I worked at many QUIMS (Quality In Multicultural Schools) - schools in Zurich City, where we followed a anti-bullying-protocol named PFADE, which was quite effective.At the moment I substitute at a kindergarten in a ZH privileged neighborhood and at first, they were bullying each other quite a lot, out of boredom.It stopped quite fast when I occupied and fed their minds with music, theatre and elementary maths. They behave almost like model children.If I feel they need some rough play at recess, I transform into a very grumpy silverback gorilla and "attack" them on the playground, which they absolutely adore because I (the gorilla) say "bad" words and grumble and play rough and tumble with them for a while. Afterwards - if I transform back into my lovely self - everybody is happy again :-) Me too!
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Old 26.01.2016, 19:04
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Re: Aggression in Swiss Primary Schools - not bullying

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.

What irks me is in French, they will say "il s'est fait mobbé" which basically means he let that happened to himself. Gah. That reflexive verbal part makes people see the victim responsible for the act of the violator, which is not the way to approach violence and kids.
No it doesn't mean that!

It means that he got robbed. Not that he did that to himself, even if the s'est is there. It happened to him. It absolutely not saying that he let that happened to himself. Sorry but that's not at all the way the sentence goes.
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Old 26.01.2016, 19:08
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Re: Aggression in Swiss Primary Schools

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I worked at many QUIMS...
Whoa there. Who came up with that acronym!?
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Old 26.01.2016, 19:59
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Re: Aggression in Swiss Primary Schools

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I worked at many QUIMS (Quality In Multicultural Schools) - schools in Zurich City, where we followed a anti-bullying-protocol named PFADE, which was quite effective.At the moment I substitute at a kindergarten in a ZH privileged neighborhood and at first, they were bullying each other quite a lot, out of boredom.It stopped quite fast when I occupied and fed their minds with music, theatre and elementary maths. They behave almost like model children.If I feel they need some rough play at recess, I transform into a very grumpy silverback gorilla and "attack" them on the playground, which they absolutely adore because I (the gorilla) say "bad" words and grumble and play rough and tumble with them for a while. Afterwards - if I transform back into my lovely self - everybody is happy again :-) Me too!
Oh... I always wondered why my daughters KG teachers had to go to Pfäde in school time, now I know it wasn't scouts but anti-bullying training! Thanks!
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Old 26.01.2016, 20:08
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Re: Aggression in Swiss Primary Schools - not bullying

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Likewise.

Tom
First time I ever heard the word 'mobbing' was here on EF.
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Old 26.01.2016, 20:15
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Re: Aggression in Swiss Primary Schools

In Cossonay, VD, in VP/VG school incivilities are quite common - calling names, pushing etc, breaking into lockers, stealing anything left unattended, foul language, smoking, watching porn on smartphones. The game to play is to stay close to the teachers and away from the angry packs during a break.
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Old 27.01.2016, 12:52
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Re: Aggression in Swiss Primary Schools

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Give it time. Inclusion in the English language is by recognised usage, especially in written form, as here.
Absolutely. The link is correct, as I said before - the research field of work/school group dynamics and PSY have been operating with the term for a long time. Whether it penetrates to common and active media vocabulary probably depends on the efficiency of the local legislature treating mobbing in the actual country. Poor labor law legislature creates big problems as time goes, and it spreads the term to regular public, the cases are frequent (despite of too much not even being reported and victims quietly shoved out of attention).

Labor law (school law) has treated mobbing and bullying in other countries relatively long time ago and there is often zero violence policy in school yards elsewhere.

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Possibly. It may be a long time though. I'd never heard of one case of work-place bullying before I arrived here but now it seems to be as common as taking a summer holiday.
I agree. And ask myself if the reason is actually a legislature vacuum. I think it only got "fixed" not long ago. I don't miss the hysterics but do miss awareness and will to protect.

Or, the reason behind the phenomenon being the push for communities, kids, teachers, parents, etc. to self control, self regulate and self moderate? Autonomously, as opposed to being handheld and policed? Law being substituted only with "official suggestions".

Whatever the reason is, the lack of responsibility and kids paying for it (whether due to parents or school not caring) is a big and painful problem. Takes long to weed out violence. Takes a second to allow it. Laziness and lack of accountability.

Btw, little kids before they learn the rules of the jungle have highly developed sense of empathy, justice and kindness. (Look in Kohlberg, or cool French texts on ethics in last year in Recherche Journal).

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It's used in Norwegian and they have big media campaigns against it every year around school.. .
Same abroad, where I have taught and worked before. Again, anti bullying and anti mobbing policies and official strategies have been put in place since the 90s.

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Yes, 'mobbing' has been a very big issue with our older children! And we've noticed bits of bullying even with the Kindergarten classes. I'm not sure if it's better/worse than other countries, but disturbing to watch nonetheless.
I also had to react to something ehen kiddo was in KG, but this time it was a stagiere who with no experience with kids was at a complete loss and slapped a few kids. Yikes. One wonders why little kids bully if they see stuff like that.

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No it doesn't mean that!

It means that he got robbed. Not that he did that to himself, even if the s'est is there. It happened to him. It absolutely not saying that he let that happened to himself. Sorry but that's not at all the way the sentence goes.
"Il/elle s'est fait mobbé" in the meaning of he got himself mobbed/bullied has been used by parents/teachers ever since I started working in VD edu here, years ago. Same for work mob groups. Sad is when kids say it, about another kid, mockingly.

Where I have worked/taught before, people/students resorting to violence were treated by the system as the weak ones. It feels like here they almost get a thumb up, for being socially clever and not needing the system to sort their squabbles, ignoring the fact there are hurt people left behind and system still has to pick that up, anyways. It's not very bright nor long term sustainable. But it might also link to why some uncooth political rhetorics is allowed here, almost promoted. Violence is violence.
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Old 27.01.2016, 13:18
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Re: Aggression in Swiss Primary Schools

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I agree. And ask myself if the reason is actually a legislature vacuum. I think it only got "fixed" not long ago. I don't miss the hysterics but do miss awareness and will to protect.

Or, the reason behind the phenomenon being the push for communities, kids, teachers, parents, etc. to self control and self moderate? Autonomously, as opposed to being handheld and policed?

Whatever the reason is, the lack of responsibility and kids paying for it (whether due to parents or school not caring) is a big and painful problem. Takes long to weed out violence. Takes a second to allow it. Laziness and lack of accountability.

Btw, little kids before they learn the rules of the jungle have highly developed sense of empathy, justice and kindness. (Look in Kohlberg, or cool French texts on ethics in last year in Recherche Journal).



Same abroad, where I have taught and worked before. Again, anti bullying and anti mobbing policies and official strategies have been put in place since the 90s.


You do realise this isn't your Twitter account?


There's no character limit so you can use sentence conjunctions for the sake of coherence.
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Old 27.01.2016, 13:39
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Re: Aggression in Swiss Primary Schools

couple of things to add here


Having a scrap in the playground is expected in CH. fact. teachers really do not care unless there's a lot of blood. do not expect the teachers to sort it as its too much effort for them and they are not trained to deal with conflict. they see themselves as "teachers, not supervisors" therefore its a "not my problem" scenario.


you can do one of two things.
1) teach them the STOP tactic with hand put up. I have seen this used well by some kids.
2) buy a punch bag and teach them how to hit back.


basic story here is it all a game, they expect a scrap in the playground. if you kid doesn't yell STOP, or fight back, they become the target.


My son got hit in the face with a shoe, all the teacher did was tell him to stop crying. I was furious. however I knew the parent really well so we sorted it out ourselves.


I'm still waiting for parents evening to ask, if she got hit in the face with a shoe and told to stop crying, how would she feel.
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Old 27.01.2016, 14:14
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Re: Aggression in Swiss Primary Schools

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Buy a punch bag and teach them how to hit back.
It doesn't work if there's four or five older kids picking on a younger one.


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I'm still waiting for parents evening to ask, if she got hit in the face with a shoe and told to stop crying, how would she feel.
I'm not allowed to attend the parents' evening because of what I might say:

"I don't care if you can't ski and hate skiing - all the other classes go on a ski break except yours. You're a teacher. You get paid for this. You don't have to like it. I don't care whether you like it".

or

"This school has a no-smart phones policy and although I realise that rules are different for teachers, getting your new iPhone 6 out and showing the class doesn't really set a good example - and how old are you anyway, ffs?"
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