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  #41  
Old 01.06.2014, 00:13
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

It's hard to tell now what it would mean then..little kids do not understand adult decisions, even when it means escaping pain, but causing pain to them by disappearing completely. Somebody very close was sent to a summer camp so she wouldn't see her mom die. She wished to be able to spend those 4 extra weeks with her mom. A close family was just diagnosed with something really hard and terminal, I will respect his wishes eventhough we know he will prioritize ours.
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  #42  
Old 01.06.2014, 00:20
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

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There is no way a person in that state could or would want to travel to Switzerland to Exit.
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Important Note: Eligible for membership in EXIT are only persons of the age of legal majority with either permanent residence in Switzerland or Swiss citizenship.
http://www.exit.ch/en/
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  #43  
Old 01.06.2014, 00:45
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

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That's exactly my point.



AFAIK Exit is first and foremost an 'assisted suicide' business, I don't know whether they also do palliative care but I never read about that in all the news articles about them that I came across.
I don't follow the Exit news articles but as someone who has helped care for 2 terminal family members in their last days in my mind palliative care is about helping people die with dignity which ever way they chose to go.

Where I'm from it would be illegal to give someone a medication to help them die. Yet at the same time I've seen many family members live in denial and dare to insinuate that those medications are dangerous and addictive therefore the patient should be denied the right to have appropriate pain control in their most needed dying days.

Perhaps exit is the best way to get around all those uninformed biased opinions.

Perhaps I should join after all just to be sure I can get out without too much fuss when the time comes. At least if I'm at the point where I'm not able to lift poison cup to my own lips none of my family members would be charged with murder.
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  #44  
Old 01.06.2014, 00:54
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

Another aspect of Exit is that you may write a "Living Will"

You can state that you do not wish to be kept alive with the aid of external machines.

So If I have a bad accident on my motor bike, and I am in a coma, I have explicitly requested that the support machine be turned off.

I may be a silly arse riding a motor bike at my age, but I don't want my children to have to make the decision to kill me. The doctors won't turn off the life support machines, they ALWAYS ask the next of kin to agree to the decision in writing. And who wants to be accused of killing their parent who might magically make a recovery, to spend years living as a vegetable?

If you don't like the idea of EXIT, don't join it.
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  #45  
Old 01.06.2014, 01:02
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

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So why would you need Exit for that?
Millions of people have committed suicide before Exit ever existed.

I'm genuinely surprised that so many of you here think Exit is a valuable 'service'...
People have completed suicide (it's not a crime in Switzerland, so I avoid the term committed when possible), but the way I see it, one shouldn't have to consider placing themselves at the risk of paralysis, shattered bones etc. (in other words, terrifying and often debilitating consequences of a failed suicide) and later possibly end up in an even more desperate state while being less sure that the suicide would ever be completed, because assisted suicide organizations aren't accessible.

Exit offers the possibility of leaving safely. They don't force you to do anything, thex take suicide preparation very seriously. In my opinion, that is much safer than a desperate soul taking his life by other means. Don't even get me started on the people who have the gall to say that failed suicides automatically mean that there was no intent in the first place because one only was serious about suicide if one completed it. Feckin repulsive.

I like the idea that Exit only accepts CH residents and citizens because with people who aren't in the country more or less permanently, diligent preparation (multiple meetings over a long period of time) doesn't seem feasible.
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  #46  
Old 01.06.2014, 01:06
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

I'm right and you're all wrong because <insert fake story about experiencing pain and death>.
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  #47  
Old 01.06.2014, 01:14
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

Maybe the SBB could advertise EXIT on their railway stations, and help reduce the number of selfish suicides on the rail tracks?
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  #48  
Old 01.06.2014, 01:16
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

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Maybe the SBB could advertise EXIT on their railway stations, and help reduce the number of selfish suicides on the rail tracks?
They absolutely should - similarly to the tel 143 (la main tendue, free of charge) phone number on Swiss bridges.

Last edited by glowjupiter; 01.06.2014 at 01:27.
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  #49  
Old 01.06.2014, 01:39
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

Could you do us all a favour and try one of the cheap methods of throwing a seven - and write back to this thread letting us know how well it worked?

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I'm not stopping you from wasting your money, I'm just very surprised that so many people here fall for such a completely useless business...
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  #50  
Old 01.06.2014, 01:53
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

I recommend watching "A Short Stay in Switzerland" with Julie Walters. It was a BBC production from 2009 (available to watch on Youtube). Definitely thought provoking.
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  #51  
Old 01.06.2014, 08:21
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

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I'm genuinely surprised that you think ruining a train driver's life is worth saving 70CHF a year.

Oh. No, you don't. You're being your usual argumentative c*nt craving a little attention.
The second sentence is unacceptable especially as it's been posted by a mod
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  #52  
Old 01.06.2014, 08:24
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

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Seriously?? Even a ten year-old could tell you several ways...
All of them involve brachial force and a considerable mess to clean up, plus potential life-long trauma for the person who finds you or inadvertently causes your death (e.g. a train driver). All softer ways (such as taking pills) are mostly unsuccessful as the really deadly stuff isn't easily obtainable.

So yes, Exit is probably the only dignified way.
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  #53  
Old 01.06.2014, 09:46
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

It's definitely something I would consider.
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  #54  
Old 01.06.2014, 09:49
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

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Maybe the SBB could advertise EXIT on their railway stations, and help reduce the number of selfish suicides on the rail tracks?
they could even sell a ticket for the service....at the end it's like going from a point A to a point B.

PS: For long flights I'm a member of the EXIT* seat to avoid all the pain.

Last edited by MrVertigo; 01.06.2014 at 10:03.
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  #55  
Old 01.06.2014, 10:12
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

Here are EXIT's three main statements:

EXIT will enforce your right to refuse treatment in the event of illness and accident

EXIT will be by your side in difficult situations in life

EXIT will support you if you decide at some point to exercise your right to self-determination


Also from the site:

EXIT will provide end-of-life care only to persons

with hopeless prognoses
or with unbearable symptoms
or with unacceptable disabilities


To be clear, most of those unfortunate souls who commit suicide by jumping in front of a train, etc., would probably NOT be accepted by EXIT.

For terminally ill patients, I believe EXIT is an excellent solution for those who wish to end their physical suffering. I have never met a local who feels it should be outlawed.

Thanks for posting the question. It's a great motivation for those who haven't signed up to be a member yet and would like to.
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  #56  
Old 01.06.2014, 10:22
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

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Such as?

Tom
It's very easy if you have an older car without a catalytic converter, the hosepipe from the car exhaust into the car is effective. It's something a next door neighbor & father of a friend did in the late 1970's after loosing his job.
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  #57  
Old 01.06.2014, 10:27
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

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It's a great motivation for those who haven't signed up to be a member yet and would like to.
I will never sign up to this kind of insurance. But it's good to think about these eventualities.
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Old 01.06.2014, 10:56
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

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I don't follow the Exit news articles but as someone who has helped care for 2 terminal family members in their last days in my mind palliative care is about helping people die with dignity which ever way they chose to go.

Where I'm from it would be illegal to give someone a medication to help them die. Yet at the same time I've seen many family members live in denial and dare to insinuate that those medications are dangerous and addictive therefore the patient should be denied the right to have appropriate pain control in their most needed dying days.

Perhaps exit is the best way to get around all those uninformed biased opinions.
Perhaps I should join after all just to be sure I can get out without too much fuss when the time comes. At least if I'm at the point where I'm not able to lift poison cup to my own lips none of my family members would be charged with murder.
I don't think they'd make a fuss, you could always join and see how having that extra security makes you feel. If you end up not wanting the services, just tell them, issue solved.
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Old 01.06.2014, 11:00
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

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A key relevant angle on the question is the growing possibility of putting a vulnerable person in the position of having to justify one's existence (either to others or to oneself -- often to oneself).
This exactly.

My concerns are not with EXIT per se, but rather with the direction in which society's attitude to the elderly, the vulnerable, the 'non-productive' is moving.

Attitudes towards the elderly and vulnerable - especially among medical professionals - frightens me. Basing the value of human life on continued 'usefulness' is becoming acceptable. Suicide is seen as the noble gesture, while wanting to live until the last is now seen as selfish, as using more than one's fair share of resources.

I've been intimately involved in eldercare, with death and the dying process. I'm under no illusions as to what end of life care entails. And still I intend to 'rage against the dying of the light'. I have no intention of going early, thank you very much. But when I speak of my wishes to Swiss acquaintances, they are shocked at my 'egoismus'.

Given the shift I see in social attitudes coupled with the shrinking economic pie, I do indeed worry that the right to die movement is being used to avoid putting resources into eldercare, and more importantly into palliative care.

---

EXIT has just announced that 'Lebensmüde' is now an acceptable ground for assisted suicide, that the bar will be lower for the elderly wishing to end their lives than for a younger person.

What exactly are the checks that are given as assurances that one will not be pushed to suicide?
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  #60  
Old 01.06.2014, 11:28
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

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This exactly.

My concerns are not with EXIT per se, but rather with the direction in which society's attitude to the elderly, the vulnerable, the 'non-productive' is moving.

Attitudes towards the elderly and vulnerable - especially among medical professionals - frightens me. Basing the value of human life on continued 'usefulness' is becoming acceptable. Suicide is seen as the noble gesture, while wanting to live until the last is now seen as selfish, as using more than one's fair share of resources.

I've been intimately involved in eldercare, with death and the dying process. I'm under no illusions as to what end of life care entails. And still I intend to 'rage against the dying of the light'. I have no intention of going early, thank you very much. But when I speak of my wishes to Swiss acquaintances, they are shocked at my 'egoismus'.

Given the shift I see in social attitudes coupled with the shrinking economic pie, I do indeed worry that the right to die movement is being used to avoid putting resources into eldercare, and more importantly into palliative care.

---

EXIT has just announced that 'Lebensmüde' is now an acceptable ground for assisted suicide, that the bar will be lower for the elderly wishing to end their lives than for a younger person.

What exactly are the checks that are given as assurances that one will not be pushed to suicide?
My thoughts exactly. The plan might work if people end up in a terminal and unbearable situation, after everything has been tried and provided. That's often not the case already. Let's not get investments into medicine and paliative care, quality ageing, off the hook. While people promote Exit as something ethical, it can be abused as the opposite. I understand what people here chimed in and why. But personally I think I'd prefer a good doctor that won't let me suffer (those I know don't) than check myself out early. Especially knowing the stance on this of those who love me. Plus as a single parent - paying up into this checking out early fund..gives a message I don't want my child to get, nor thinking of her own mortality in these parameters. Med care and health insurance is a system that should not need a back up. The min this grows big, I am afraid health care will have an excuse to slack on elderly, more than now. Especially dangerous in a place where med malpractice is untraceable and people not being held accountable.
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