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  #101  
Old 02.06.2014, 19:25
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

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Voluntary euthansia as you describe Meloncollie, is not legal in Switzerland. A retired doctor who is an EXIT volunteer was asked ba a member with motor neurone (I think- or some other debilitating disease) to help her die. From the time of the first visit, to the day chosen, the doctor visited several times, and the patient's condition deteriorated rapidly. the doctor devised a simple system that would allow the member to pull on a scarf to pour the lethal mixture, as she could not longer hold a cup or glass- but the next day, when she arrived for the final act, the member was unable to even to that- she expressed her total terror at the idea she would not be able to go through with her wish- and after some exchange, the doctor helped her.
She was taken to court but won the case.

Another case recently was when an elderly patient had rectal cancer- refused treatment and asked for help. The doctor was taken to court because he had not forced the member to let him make a rectal manual examination- which the member had refused. Again, he won the case. Two very important and key cases for EXIT. Common sense prevailed, even though the letter of the law was not followed- because the member's wishes were absolutely clear.
Important points for free choices pertaining to death are:

Knowledge of the different ways of dying
If the multitude of legal paths to death remains largely unknown to the public, it's harder to find a method which best suits personal wants and needs. People should be able to make a decision based on knowledge, not on hearsay. Gaining knowledge regarding the subject of death isn't easy.

Non-judgmental people who help if help is wanted
They are important especially in cases of ALS etc. This of course should only be done voluntarily and within the legal boundaries.

Time to decide
Don't pressure people. Thinking about dying can be very complex and involve many factors which the individual might want to consider before making a decision.

Respect for personal wishes
My life, my choice. Your life, your choice.

Ability to give up control
Many things can be controlled nowadays. But keep from imposing your opinion on someone who wants to die (whatever the reason might be) in a sole effort to reduce personal anguish whilst knowing that the person wants to die.
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  #102  
Old 02.06.2014, 19:35
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

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My grandfather had Parkinson and at the end, he lost all his independence and couldn't do the most basic things by himself. At a certain point, he had enough and decided he didn't want to eat anymore. So the home care owner had to send him to the hospital that day.

After a day in the hospital, he was mad he wasn't dead yet from starving (that was very funny). Anyway, his doctor gave him morphine for his "pain" (he didn't have any with his meds) and he slowly increased the amount on my gran dad's wishes. After 3 days, it was over.

Suicide assistance isn't legal in Canada but is performed since a while already by some doctor under medical pretenses. I was very glad this doctor helped him when he asked for it.

I will certainly join EXiT and hope that if one day, I find myself in a situation where I can no longer live a life that hold me in a body that is a prison, I will be able to take this decision too and get the help to do it.
People who look in on the situation of suicidal people from the outside rarely see the bars of that prison, think there is a surefire way to break out or think that the suicidal person just can't see the crowbar which supposedly is right next to him
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  #103  
Old 02.06.2014, 19:47
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

I don't agree. Why, because no amount of law making can cover every single scenario where undue influence and pressure can be exerted in these circumstances.

What law can prevent, for example, a family member or other vested party greedy for their inheritance or cut thereof, from making direct or indirect suggestions to a sick person, considered still of sound mind to join EXIT? None whatsoever in my view.

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The point is with all of this - all people of sound mind should have the ability to choose the method and time of their own death. What's critical is that laws are in place to prevent any pressure or influence from outside regarding this.
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  #104  
Old 02.06.2014, 19:54
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

Which is why EXIT trained volunteers always talk to the person requesting help at least twice, to ensure that there is not pressure put on them, and that they have no doubt whatsoever. At the smallest sign of the above, they will not go forward. This interview will take place again on the day of 'release'- they are trained to look out for, listen for- any smallest sign of the above. Every single 'scenario' as you call it will be examined personally, on its own merits- and at least twice.
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  #105  
Old 02.06.2014, 19:54
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

My gran did manage to starve herself to death. It was not pleasant to watch, very distressing actually. It took time and everyday when I visited her in the hospital she said she wanted to die, she had had enough of life. Her last months were painful, undignified and against her wishes. She was very much of sound mind and I wish an organization like Exit could have been there for her.

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My grandfather had Parkinson and at the end, he lost all his independence and couldn't do the most basic things by himself. At a certain point, he had enough and decided he didn't want to eat anymore. So the home care owner had to send him to the hospital that day.

After a day in the hospital, he was mad he wasn't dead yet from starving (that was very funny). Anyway, his doctor gave him morphine for his "pain" (he didn't have any with his meds) and he slowly increased the amount on my gran dad's wishes. After 3 days, it was over.

Suicide assistance isn't legal in Canada but is performed since a while already by some doctor under medical pretenses. I was very glad this doctor helped him when he asked for it.

I will certainly join EXiT and hope that if one day, I find myself in a situation where I can no longer live a life that hold me in a body that is a prison, I will be able to take this decision too and get the help to do it.
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  #106  
Old 02.06.2014, 19:55
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

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I don't agree. Why, because no amount of law making can cover every single scenario where undue influence and pressure can be exerted in these circumstances.

What law can prevent, for example, a family member or other vested party greedy for their inheritance or cut thereof, from making direct or indirect suggestions to a sick person, considered still of sound mind to join EXIT? None whatsoever in my view.
But that's true of any law - the devil's in the details, in psychiatrists evaluating the candidate and coming to a conclusion. There will be mistakes, as with everything, but allowing a human being to make the ultimate choice free of government intrusion is far less interfering even with familial suggestion than the government making it flat out illegal.
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  #107  
Old 02.06.2014, 20:51
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

If you're feeling strong and powerful, if people are loudly saying (or whispering) that you are ruining the life of your loved ones, perhaps that will not influence/pressure you, consciously or unconsciously.

If you're feeling weak and powerless, will you still be able to ward off that influence?

And when they ask you if you are being pressured, are you going to accuse your dear loved ones (whom you are trying not to hurt) of pressuring you?

You probably won't even see it as pressuring, because your family is probably not telling you to do anything, it is just lots of other people in magazines, on TV, etc. who are sending out the message that you are ruining your family's life. The louder that message, the more likely that you are to be influenced/pressured by it... especially if you are feeling weak and vulnerable.

Like the "self-deportation" that happens when immigration-opponents make it clear how unwelcome you are in the US, you could call that "free choice." But how free is that choice?

It's common knowledge among philosophers, psychologists, and others who study "choice" that "free" choice is an illusion, that all choice is conditioned on many factors including what other people think, what kind of person you think you are (e.g. "noble" vs. "selfish", and what qualifies as "noble" or "selfish" in the society you happen to live in), and the meanings ascribed by your society to different actions. Choice is not free.
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  #108  
Old 02.06.2014, 21:18
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

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It's common knowledge among philosophers, psychologists, and others who study "choice" that "free" choice is an illusion, that all choice is conditioned on many factors including what other people think, what kind of person you think you are (e.g. "noble" vs. "selfish", and what qualifies as "noble" or "selfish" in the society you happen to live in), and the meanings ascribed by your society to different actions. Choice is not free.
Well, that's blindingly obvious to anyone, but are you suggesting that no choice gives you more freedom?

It's been said that benevolent dictatorship is the best form of government. Why have elections? People are just influenced by the people and circumstances around them, and most people don't understand the complexity of government. Is that a good thing?

People currently have the choice to artificially extend their life. Why shouldn't they have the same choice to end it?
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  #109  
Old 02.06.2014, 21:20
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

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No I wouldn't consider it.
I certainly would if I were in a position where I could no longer live my life as a wish, and that means being able to feed myself and cook my own meals.

Some people are willing to be a living brain in a dead body, I certainly am not, that for me is not living, but rather existing, in a lifelong prison at that.

I don't care if I'm a burden on others, I just don't want to exist under such conditions.

Tom
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  #110  
Old 02.06.2014, 21:24
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

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I certainly would if I were in a position where I could no longer live my life as a wish, and that means being able to feed myself and cook my own meals.
Most elderly people's appetite goes out the window, and they do not have to be terminally ill for that.

I feel we are not realizing how much our personalities will change, when we age. Most people hold on to life, in my experience. I remember having a baby right at a point a family member was conducting her health risk assessment research in old folks homes. Geriatry. It was really interesting, one relized how special elderly people are. And how similar to babies (which are never considered undignified). How much extra special consideration they need, even when their state of health is not at the completely final stage. All of them, food wise, free time management wise, hygiene wise, etc. It is completely normal and accepted, not easily, but is. All which we think of that is probably labeled as undignified, is a part of aging. NO end is dignified in the way we want it, most are sad and traumatic. I know people want to avoid it. As a nurse I had also elderly people dying on my shift. Never once I thought there was something undignified, nobody thinks that way in a medical environment (most of them were unconscious for most of their stay, true, still). Normalcy is not viewed as we view it, there is just a different degree of independence, and I know this is what people are talking about here. I am not saying people should accept deteroration as a part of life without feeling the emotions and helplessness, including dependence, I know it would be presumptious. And I agree people should have a choice. But imho, there is nothing undignified in taking care of a loved one, I would hate to see that as a possible message of EXIT type of business. I remember we even vousvoyer to our grandparents, etc. when I was very little, my parents inlaws were vousvoyed by both parties. We had an Alzheimer in a family, she stayed for decades in her home with a caring hb, was not placed in a nursing home, her partner knew it would kill the tiny bit of lust for life she was aware of. I am not sure how engraved in western culture is, the push to not be a burden, when compared to other cultures. I wonder how EXIT would do in the 3rd world. I think it might be taken completely differently.
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  #111  
Old 02.06.2014, 21:34
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

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People who look in on the situation of suicidal people from the outside rarely see the bars of that prison, think there is a surefire way to break out or think that the suicidal person just can't see the crowbar which supposedly is right next to him
I don't see my grandfather as suicidal. He lived a long and great life. He was going to die in a few months most likely of suffocation. He just didn't want to go trough more than he was in.

My best friend killed herself when we were 15. Yes, she was suicidal and succeed.

Very different reasons, very different mindset and very different way of doing it.

My granddad made it peacefully with all of us around him, we all had a choice to say our goodbyes, to hug and kiss and more importantly, to be in peace with his wishes.

My best friend dead put me into depression for years, a felt my school year and didn't give any crap of what was going on around me. I felt horrible, depressed, sad, angry and it turned our lives around for years.

For me, a suicide is something done in very different mindset than wishing to die on your own term when dead isn't far, when there is no hope you'll recover or find the miracle antidote for an illness that keep you as a human being, in the prison of your own body.
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  #112  
Old 02.06.2014, 21:38
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

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Most elderly people's appetite goes out the window, and they do not have to be terminally ill for that.
My grandfather is 102 at the the end of this month, he still enjoys cooking and eating.

My wife's great uncle will be 99 at the end of July, likewise.

If I end up like them, fine, if not, I'm out of here.

Tom
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  #113  
Old 02.06.2014, 21:45
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

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and that means being able to feed myself and cook my own meals.

Some people are willing to be a living brain in a dead body, I certainly am not, that for me is not living, but rather existing, in a lifelong prison at that.
So you think the likes of Stephen Hawking and Frank Williams aren't living??
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  #114  
Old 02.06.2014, 21:52
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

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My grandfather is 102 at the the end of this month, he still enjoys cooking and eating.

My wife's great uncle will be 99 at the end of July, likewise.

If I end up like them, fine, if not, I'm out of here.

Tom
What if your daughter says I love you and need you the way you are for a bit longer, see my child being born...I will cook for you and feed you?

(How awesome it is you still have a grandparent, btw, so nice)
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  #115  
Old 02.06.2014, 21:53
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

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So you think the likes of Stephen Hawking and Frank Williams aren't living??
st2lemans wrote "for me" - that should be clear enough to answer your question...
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  #116  
Old 02.06.2014, 21:57
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

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My grandfather is 102 at the the end of this month, he still enjoys cooking and eating.

My wife's great uncle will be 99 at the end of July, likewise.

If I end up like them, fine, if not, I'm out of here.

Tom
It's good to have things to live for
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  #117  
Old 02.06.2014, 21:57
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

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So you think the likes of Stephen Hawking and Frank Williams aren't living??
If Stephen Hawking came up with the Grand Theory of Everything, st2lemans would just reply "Not in Ticino".
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  #118  
Old 02.06.2014, 22:00
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

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What if your daughter says I love you and need you the way you are for a bit longer, see my child being born...I will cook for you and feed you?
That's the thing about choice; you can choose either way. EXIT don't send a hit squad around when they're ready. If you are choosing to live, then that's fine too.
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  #119  
Old 02.06.2014, 22:05
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

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If Stephen Hawking came up with the Grand Theory of Everything, st2lemans would just reply "Not in Ticino".
Yes. But I can actually see Tom quietly financing it, too. After his cooking and eating is taken care of, of course.
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  #120  
Old 02.06.2014, 22:11
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

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Well, that's blindingly obvious to anyone, but are you suggesting that no choice gives you more freedom?

It's been said that benevolent dictatorship is the best form of government. Why have elections? People are just influenced by the people and circumstances around them, and most people don't understand the complexity of government. Is that a good thing?

People currently have the choice to artificially extend their life. Why shouldn't they have the same choice to end it?
I don't mean to speak for the poster, but i don't think its all that obvious to everyone. Look at the power of our anecdotes. I don't think it means that no choice gives you freedom, but that your choice is influenced by your environment. And yeah that's obvious, but i really don't think people stop to think how it influences them.
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