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Old 03.06.2014, 11:52
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

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There was an article on this on the BBC website the other day.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-27554754
I'm happy to see that people are paying more attention to some of this behavioral stuff - how people assess situations themselves is probably more important that what a doctor says.
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  #142  
Old 03.06.2014, 12:31
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

I've been back and forth on this one for a couple of days: to post, not to post... hang it, I'm going to post it anyway.

I reckon edot hit the nail on the head: the first question has to be, do you agree that an individual has the right to end their life, and if so in what circumstances. Second question, is an organization like EXIT a valuable way of implementing this, really only comes into play if your answer is “yes” on the first question.

I'm a pretty firm “no” on the first question so to me EXIT and all similar organizations, the details, the safeguards, the possible knock-on effects on society etc. etc. are neither here nor there.

I believe in life as a tremendous gift and also a responsibility – not something I am morally free to decline when it becomes burdensome to me.

A decent analogy is parenting: I can't just wake up some morning and decide I want to stop being a mother just because it's painful, frustrating or I feel I've had a good enough innings at it (Elternseinsmüdigkeit??). My heart goes out to parents who feel trapped in this responsibility, but all my sympathy can't negate my belief that it still is a responsibility.

All you have to do is look at some of the pet rehoming threads on here for a milder (well, sometimes milder) version of the same thing. We do seem to broadly agree that certain responsibilities, once taken up, can't or at least oughtn't be laid down at will when they become unpleasant.

My belief (and this is explicitly grounded in my Christian faith so I don't expect everyone to share it) is that life itself – more precisely the way I spend my life, in relation to God and those around me – is one of those responsibilities. So no, assisted suicide of any sort is off the table for me. DNR and palliative care are as far as I believe my authority over my own lifespan extends.

Again, this is very much a faith-based position and I realize not many people will share it – but thought I'd offer it anyway in the interests of rounding out the discussion with another point of view.
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  #143  
Old 03.06.2014, 13:14
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

As you might have guessed, we will just have to agree to totally disagree here- but I respect your point of view, and thank you for it.

Totally agree about the responsibility of parenting. A neighbour of mine in the UK killed herself when her daughter was 14 and her son 12. Ketanime, paracetamol and a bottle of whisky- the kids found her when they got home from school. She was obviously desperate and mentally deranged, but I could never ever understand how any mother could do that to her children.

Don't you think that my mother, aged 94, had fulfilled her obligations as a mother though: She was a wonderful mother, inspirational and loving too. After 10+ more years of suffering physically, mentally, emotionally- she had the right to choose, surely?

Last edited by Odile; 03.06.2014 at 13:42.
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  #144  
Old 03.06.2014, 13:25
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

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I've been back and forth on this one for a couple of days: to post, not to post... hang it, I'm going to post it anyway.

I reckon edot hit the nail on the head: the first question has to be, do you agree that an individual has the right to end their life, and if so in what circumstances. Second question, is an organization like EXIT a valuable way of implementing this, really only comes into play if your answer is “yes” on the first question.

I'm a pretty firm “no” on the first question so to me EXIT and all similar organizations, the details, the safeguards, the possible knock-on effects on society etc. etc. are neither here nor there.

I believe in life as a tremendous gift and also a responsibility – not something I am morally free to decline when it becomes burdensome to me.

A decent analogy is parenting: I can't just wake up some morning and decide I want to stop being a mother just because it's painful, frustrating or I feel I've had a good enough innings at it (Elternseinsmüdigkeit??). My heart goes out to parents who feel trapped in this responsibility, but all my sympathy can't negate my belief that it still is a responsibility.

All you have to do is look at some of the pet rehoming threads on here for a milder (well, sometimes milder) version of the same thing. We do seem to broadly agree that certain responsibilities, once taken up, can't or at least oughtn't be laid down at will when they become unpleasant.

My belief (and this is explicitly grounded in my Christian faith so I don't expect everyone to share it) is that life itself – more precisely the way I spend my life, in relation to God and those around me – is one of those responsibilities. So no, assisted suicide of any sort is off the table for me. DNR and palliative care are as far as I believe my authority over my own lifespan extends.

Again, this is very much a faith-based position and I realize not many people will share it – but thought I'd offer it anyway in the interests of rounding out the discussion with another point of view.
One can have this pov even as a non Christian, I personally see it for myself in a similar way due to the environment and philosophy that is geared towards prevention and improvement and the fact my life might not matter to me, but I am sure it will matter to others and in a way I might disagree with. I am just hoping that the pain managemet procedure would be there. The question remains how to have this as a possibility or lack there of, on a bigger scale. I am not sure if this would cut if, for a non believer patient. Will there will be Chistian doctors prioritizing patients because they want to keep on living, hence probably worth the effort, people will think this way. From a point of a doctor, who is not a parent of the patient, either, when we are at the parenting analogy..would he respect and accept non religious patient willing to end life, because that info will be writen in his medical profile? How are the rules going to be implemented by nursing homes, hospices and hospitals which are by their definition traditionally institutions driven to improve quality of life. Not known for tolerance of those who in full publicity end it or help to end it. How is the institution with high EXIT patient rate going to be interpreted in professional environment, public, etc. Setting precedence to attract certain clientelle, etc., deterring others, especially insurers . Is some diagnosis with high EXIT rate on top going to stigmatize those who will hold on to life, or how is it going to influence medical research, treatment, investment. I don't know.

I know personal opinions and experience is one thing..but I have a feeling this is going to be a tough one, to have a comprehensive and implementable policy. It's tougher ethically, than abortion, which is another way to end life. Because grown ups, legally, can decide their fate.
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  #145  
Old 03.06.2014, 13:57
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

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It's tougher ethically, than abortion, which is another way to end life. Because grown ups, legally, can decide their fate.
I disagree. Abortion involves making the decision to take (or not start) another's life on their behalf. A life that in most cases could be healthily lived.

I'm pro-abortion choice, but morally it's much more difficult than an informed decision made by a person choosing how to end their own life under certain circumstances that they consider unlivable.
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  #146  
Old 03.06.2014, 14:16
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

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A decent analogy is parenting: I can't just wake up some morning and decide I want to stop being a mother...
Mathnut I don't think looking after your own children is a valid comparison as mum/dad made the choice to bring the kid into this world hence it is their responsibility to live with their own decision. If they regret the decision later then tough as they should have thought about it. I sure did hence I have 0 interest in wanting to be a parent.

Before a child is born it is not given the choice if it wants to come to face illness, suffering and death. So unlike getting pregnant (which is a choice) the unborn child got no choice. Nor do I remember God saying, son I got a gift for you before he kicked me here

So your belief makes you see life as a gift from God, fine so no EXIT for you. My belief (or lack of) wants me to have EXIT option when illness wreaks havoc. Why should your belief supersede my belief when dealing with MY own body?
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  #147  
Old 03.06.2014, 14:20
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

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Why should your belief supersede my belief when dealing with MY own body?
Sorry but it seems clear that one or the other of us has misread the thread topic.

I read it as "EXIT: would you consider being a member?"

Not: "EXIT: do you think anybody else should be a member?"
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  #148  
Old 03.06.2014, 14:23
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

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Mathnut I don't think looking after your own children is a valid comparison as mum/dad made the choice to bring the kid into this world hence it is their responsibility to live with their own decision. If they regret the decision later then tough as they should have thought about it. I sure did hence I have 0 interest in wanting to be a parent.

Before a child is born it is not given the choice if it wants to come to face illness, suffering and death. So unlike getting pregnant (which is a choice) the unborn child got no choice. Nor do I remember God saying, son I got a gift for you before he kicked me here

So your belief makes you see life as a gift from God, fine so no EXIT for you. My belief (or lack of) wants me to have EXIT option when illness wreaks havoc. Why should your belief supersede my belief when dealing with MY own body?

Whoa. I don't think that anyone disagreeing with EXIT and the larger issue of assisted death has said anything about what you or anyone else should do with your body. You want to join EXIT, have at it. I may disagree, but I'm not going to stop you, unless you limit my choice to not participate.
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  #149  
Old 03.06.2014, 14:36
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

Whilst I disagree entirely with what EXIT does and the whole notion behind it I am, however, enjoying reading this thread and the interesting mix/diverging points of view expressed.

For me, so far, its been one of the best thought provoking discussion threads on EF in a while, so thank you very much Odile for starting it.
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  #150  
Old 03.06.2014, 14:39
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

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Sorry but it seems clear that one or the other of us has misread the thread topic.

I read it as "EXIT: would you consider being a member?"

Not: "EXIT: do you think anybody else should be a member?"
Discussions always have scope to go into relevant sub-branches. If everyone just gave their view without bit of back and forth banter then the forum would become boring. I surely want my views challenged.

Out of curiosity if life indeed was a gift from God then why should it make any difference? When I give gifts to my friends I give them without any expectations

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....I may disagree, but I'm not going to stop you, unless you limit my choice to not participate.
Edot, seriously what is more likely? Religious people taking my choice away or non religious taking your choice away?
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  #151  
Old 03.06.2014, 14:50
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

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Edot, seriously what is more likely? Religious people taking my choice away or non religious taking your choice away?

When it comes down to money - which it will, eventually, as it always does - you'll get your answer loud and clear.
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  #152  
Old 03.06.2014, 15:03
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

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When it comes down to money - which it will, eventually, as it always does - you'll get your answer loud and clear.
Which is why I fear publicity in this issue. And don't want to think too much about why it's allowed in a very pragmatic society. I don't think it has nothing to do with highly developed ethics.
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  #153  
Old 03.06.2014, 15:08
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

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When it comes down to money - which it will, eventually, as it always does - you'll get your answer loud and clear.
When it comes down to money you know most humans are greedy, irrespective of their belief system

Ok time to enjoy the sun, oh wait the cloud just swallowed it. Anyway I am out for a run. Have fun, you are all good people and I hope you all live long happy and healthy lives
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  #154  
Old 03.06.2014, 15:10
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

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I don't think that anyone disagreeing with EXIT and the larger issue of assisted death has said anything about what you or anyone else should do with your body.
No, but we are being called unethical.
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  #155  
Old 03.06.2014, 15:17
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

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No, but we are being called unethical.
Where?

I think it's being allowed legally, by authorities not to spare people suffering and promote people's rights to decide.
But because the care costs too much. Nobody labels those who want to joint EXIT as unethical.
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  #156  
Old 03.06.2014, 15:36
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

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I think it's being allowed legally, by authorities not to spare people suffering and promote people's rights to decide.
But because the care costs too much.
I think it's being allowed by authorities because it's always gone on, making criminals of those that help. Whether that's hubbie putting a pillow over his wife's face, a doctor being over generous with the painkellers or holding someone's hand at Dignitas. It goes on now and there is no choice but to procecute because it's illegal (though the last example has been unofficially decriminalised in UK).

I think it's being allowed by authorities because it gives them a legal framework. It allows them to draw a legal distinction between helping a nappy wearing 94 year old die when they want to, and a midwife letting a healthy but deformed baby die of hypothermia.

I think it's being allowed, because morally it's the right thing to do. We're not talking Logan's Run, we are talking about allowing the means for a person to end their own life with dignity.

To imply that it's being allowed to save a bit of cash is crass.


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Nobody labels those who want to joint EXIT as unethical.
OK, fair enough. I misunderstood.
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  #157  
Old 03.06.2014, 16:03
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

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Edot, seriously what is more likely? Religious people taking my choice away or non religious taking your choice away?
You assume I am religious. I'm not. I don't believe in this model of assisted death for myself. But crap, I support your choice. I support abortion. But the question was would I join EXIT and my answer is no.
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  #158  
Old 03.06.2014, 16:44
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

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So are you saying that my mother should have had to live in pain, blind, totally dependent and hating every minute of it- because she was not fortunate enough to have a 'terminal disease'? And forced to live 14 years she did no longer want to live, to age 94? Because her choice would make YOU uncomfortable?
Should she not have been able to decide for herself- after a rich and wonderful life of 80 years?
If your post was directed at me...It's your decision to make, you have to deal with the consequences. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with me....
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Old 03.06.2014, 16:47
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

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To imply that it's being allowed to save a bit of cash is crass..
You have your right to think that.
I also really think it was permitted because the cases were assumed to be rare. Publicity might make authorities rethink, it 's relatively new. We will definitely hear more of the "what's moral for you is not moral for all" rhetorics, I expect.

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Old 03.06.2014, 21:11
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Re: EXIT would you consider being a member?

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You assume I am religious. I'm not. I don't believe in this model of assisted death for myself. But crap, I support your choice. I support abortion. But the question was would I join EXIT and my answer is no.
Actually I did not assume that you were religious, if anything I got the impression that you were agnostic.

Irrespective of our religious beliefs the fact is that you don't seem to want EXIT for yourself and I want EXIT for myself. So what I meant was that there is a greater chance of religious people taking my choice away than of non religious people taking your choice away. Dougal's Breakfast brought a valid point of $s and unfortunately that comes in the picture with everything.

The whole discussion seems to be going around in circles for last few pages so I will do my part and bow out. I have nothing new to add.
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