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  #121  
Old 07.10.2014, 12:40
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Re: Ebola in Switzerland

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For a better visibility I think this thread should be merged with the following:

Recent Ebola outbreak
That thread starts about the worldwide spread of the disease.

This thread is about the local impact for people in Switzerland.

Would you agree that is a reasonable distinction?
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  #122  
Old 07.10.2014, 12:44
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Re: Ebola in Switzerland

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That thread starts about the worldwide spread of the disease.

This thread is about the local impact for people in Switzerland.

Would you agree that is a reasonable distinction?
No its not - it is a bitching thread about Swiss healthcare.

If it was about Ebola - you'd be asked questions like:
- Do you know what facilities are in place if/when Ebola reaches Switzerland?
- Does anyone have a link to the symptoms? And their Swiss German/French/Italian counterparts?
- What products can I find in supermarkets/shops to help minimise the risk of infection?
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  #123  
Old 07.10.2014, 12:56
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Re: Ebola in Switzerland

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No its not - it is a bitching thread about Swiss healthcare.

If it was about Ebola - you'd be asked questions like:
- Do you know what facilities are in place if/when Ebola reaches Switzerland?
- Does anyone have a link to the symptoms? And their Swiss German/French/Italian counterparts?
- What products can I find in supermarkets/shops to help minimise the risk of infection?
No, it is not "bitching" about Swiss health care.

There is a legitimate question about whether co-payments impact the rate at which infectious diseases are spread. Switzerland and the US, as countries with high co-payments, may both see different outcomes when compared to countries like the UK and Australia.

It has already been speculated that the Texas patient was sent away from the hospital because he only had insurance for emergencies (like a car accident or heart attack) and only had $50 in his pocket for anything else so they said "thanks for the $50, we'll send you home with antibiotics and give the bed to somebody else".

If co-payments don't deter people from seeking care, why do they have them at all?
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  #124  
Old 07.10.2014, 12:58
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Re: Ebola in Switzerland

It's about health insurance in general. The arguments used by the poster are similar to the arguments used by Americans when talking about Ebola and health insurance, almost word for word.
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  #125  
Old 07.10.2014, 13:05
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Re: Ebola in Switzerland

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It's about health insurance in general. The arguments used by the poster are similar to the arguments used by Americans when talking about Ebola and health insurance, almost word for word.
So just another thread on co-insurance vs state funded??

You stated this should be about the impact in Switzerland. Well, Switzerland has a co-insurance model, as per many many other countries, and debating it, again, will not address any questions about the possible spread of Ebola.

On the grand scale of things - when/if Ebola reaches Switzerland people won't give a fig about their excess.
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  #126  
Old 07.10.2014, 13:08
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Re: Ebola in Switzerland

It would be silly to let the virus spread because of health insurance.

I think Switzerland has less main arteries of traffic to control in the event of a lock down. It should be more manageable here than elsewhere.
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  #127  
Old 07.10.2014, 13:23
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Re: Ebola in Switzerland

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So just another thread on co-insurance vs state funded??
No, not at all, there are many more Swiss-specific issues relating to Ebola

- Remember when they declared an "immigration emergency" to suspend freedom of movement for 12 months? Will they use the emergency provisions to suspend Schengen?

- Many people use the very good public transport here in Switzerland. But will public transport be higher risk for Ebola?

- Every Swiss house must have a bunker. Are the bunkers any use in this scenario? Are people filling their bunkers with dry food or anything?

The insurance is by far the biggest issue though. I'm not suggesting that infectious diseases are a reason to abolish the whole insurance system - I was just speculating, would it be smart to make an exemption to co-payments for people being screened for Ebola? In 6 months, assume 5 people enter Switzerland with Ebola and 100 other people are potentially exposed. If 90 of those people go to be checked by a doctor but 10 of them don't, because of insurance/money problems, then the outbreak has just doubled from 5 to 10. If 97 out of 100 go to the doctor because it is free, that is a much better outcome.
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  #128  
Old 07.10.2014, 13:28
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Re: Ebola in Switzerland

No need to worry, OP. If you're concerned about the appalling state of health care in Switzerland, I have a solution for you.

HTH
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  #129  
Old 07.10.2014, 13:29
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Re: Ebola in Switzerland

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It's about health insurance in general. The arguments used by the poster are similar to the arguments used by Americans when talking about Ebola and health insurance, almost word for word.

Sorry but I can't imagine any American saying that a 5-7 copayment is high. That's quite low...

Also see Mathnut's response.
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  #130  
Old 07.10.2014, 13:38
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Re: Ebola in Switzerland

Scaremongering much?
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  #131  
Old 07.10.2014, 13:46
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Re: Ebola in Switzerland

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Why else do they have such an elaborate system of charges to be "shared" by the patient then?

They are talking about bringing in co-payments in Australia at present, a whopping $7 (or 5 CHF) to see a doctor. They are saying it is necessary to "give people a price signal", in other words, to tell people think twice, maybe you can wait another day without bothering the doctor.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-1...ayment/5661968
I think the point he is making is if people want to go to the doctor, they are there faster then elsewhere in the world. If you want to not be at work for just about anything, you go to the doctor. And where work insurance applies only to injuries at work in the US, you can be drunk here, while jumping in a river, and bang into an embankment on the Sihl, go to the doctor, and it is compted like a work related injury.

So, from what I have seen, it is quite the opposite. Atleast amongst Swiss people, they seem to be there quite often. While I haven't been myself to the doctor since two years, because I have vinegar at home. And solves everything.
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  #132  
Old 07.10.2014, 13:48
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Re: Ebola in Switzerland

OK, some homework for you. You're concerned that a copay-based health care system might worsen a possible Ebola epidemic.

Is there evidence to suggest it has worsened previous epidemics of other diseases? Do the Swiss and other co-pay based systems routinely get hit worse than the Brits and other free-at-point-of-care systems when it comes to measles, swine flu, whooping cough? If so you might be on to something. If not, you aren't. Of course don't forget to factor in things like population density and immunization rates.
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  #133  
Old 07.10.2014, 14:19
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Re: Ebola in Switzerland

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OK, some homework for you. You're concerned that a copay-based health care system might worsen a possible Ebola epidemic.

Is there evidence to suggest it has worsened previous epidemics of other diseases? Do the Swiss and other co-pay based systems routinely get hit worse than the Brits and other free-at-point-of-care systems when it comes to measles, swine flu, whooping cough? If so you might be on to something. If not, you aren't. Of course don't forget to factor in things like population density and immunization rates.
and geography (whether your country is an island or not), divine intervention and also don't forget the CIA factor, http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-05-2...kistan/5478144
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  #134  
Old 07.10.2014, 14:22
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Re: Ebola in Switzerland

Oh look, a thread that combines the tired ebola scare/discussion with the NHS vs. Swiss healthcare thread that has been flamed to charcoal. I agree with previous posters, Porsch et. al. were doing much better in the trolling department.

Let me add a bit more fuel though. It is a slow afternoon:

Of course, a free-for-all system like the NHS in the UK will be able to deal with potential ebola cases much better than the Swiss. Such a system accepts everyone unequivocally and actually encourages every single person with flu like symptoms to storm the hospitals. This is good... because reasons? Also, there aren't 4 hour waiting times in the average UK A&E after all, they won't just send you home with antibiotics as they deal with patients on a conveyor belt basis(like they did with me). It also won't take you a week to get appointment with your GP and it won't take another 2 weeks to get you a slot with a specialist, who will in the end determine 99.99999% of cases to be just a case of flu, causing the eventual real ebola infection to be neglected. This won't be combined with the flu season and potential influx of patients exacerbating all the above issues I described.

Hey, but it will all be free!
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  #135  
Old 07.10.2014, 14:24
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Re: Ebola in Switzerland

I know the Swiss government were worried when the bird flu was around. Plans were made for constructing major medical centers outside the cities, and one must assume these plans are still active.

I can see Ebola spreading, in the beginning, more quickly here than in other western countries. The symptoms take 3 to 21 days to become apparent. But during that time, with all the handshaking and treble kissing here, we are putting ourselves at risk of mixing sweat and saliva with an infected friend.

You will get no more kissing and hugs from me!
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  #136  
Old 07.10.2014, 14:25
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Re: Ebola in Switzerland

According to this, the Swiss office of public health has already put in place precautions re. Ebola.

http://www.lematin.ch/suisse/Ebola-l...story/12271754

And they are talking about surveillance of aslyum seekers following one case, that turned out negative.

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/multimed...lance/40799922
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  #137  
Old 07.10.2014, 15:07
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Re: Ebola in Switzerland

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Now that Ebola has been seen in the wild in the US and the EU (Spain), it is a bigger (although still not certain) possibility that it will arrive in Switzerland.
I it is not "not certain", there is a very small chance of that happening.

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The health worker infected in Spain had symptoms on 30 September but didn't tell anybody until 6 October.
So the first infection within Europe affects a health care specialist who should know better and waited 6 days after the first symptoms (usually people die between 9 and 16 days after the first symptoms, if they don't recover) and lives in Spain which provides free care (except medicaments). And your conclusion is...

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One can only wonder what would happen in Switzerland. There seems to be an attitude here that people should be deterred from going to the doctor, hence the elaborate system of co-payments and deductibles. Ask for help at the pharmacy for just about any issue and they often tell people wait two days before seeing a doctor. I've heard several very experienced doctors say that this is not the right way to handle infectious diseases though. Those countries with free health care (UK, Australia) may actually handle any Ebola outbreak a lot better than the Swiss because people there are not made to feel guilty or irresponsible about visiting the doctor.



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Some may even feel there is a certain arrogance, that no Swiss person would believe they have contracted a disease from Africa and they may inadvertently spread it further by not isolating themselves or seeing a doctor immediately.
Some may feel this is one of the most stupid things ever posted on here.


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What do people think? Now Ebola is in the wild in Europe, will the Swiss change the health insurance rules to guarantee everybody free and immediate screening of Ebola symptoms?
How would that help anything? Although unlikely, if Ebola should spread any further (Let's say 1000 infected people in >500 Million Europe), people will flock to the doctors like EF to the obligatory Friday-thread. I guess you were not around when the bird-flu scare was the cat's pyjamas and people started to consume Tamiflu like they were Tic Tac?

But you're right it might make sense to move to the UK. I recommend London. The lack of crowded places and public transport, absence of international airports, and the very low amount of illegal immigrants without access or trust in the public healthcare system makes it a dream come true for preppers.
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Last edited by 11HoursInTheTinPan; 07.10.2014 at 15:22.
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  #138  
Old 07.10.2014, 15:07
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Re: Ebola in Switzerland

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Oh look, a thread that combines the tired ebola scare/discussion with the NHS vs. Swiss healthcare thread that has been flamed to charcoal. I agree with previous posters, Porsch et. al. were doing much better in the trolling department.

Let me add a bit more fuel though. It is a slow afternoon:

Of course, a free-for-all system like the NHS in the UK will be able to deal with potential ebola cases much better than the Swiss. Such a system accepts everyone unequivocally and actually encourages every single person with flu like symptoms to storm the hospitals. This is good... because reasons? Also, there aren't 4 hour waiting times in the average UK A&E after all, they won't just send you home with antibiotics as they deal with patients on a conveyor belt basis(like they did with me). It also won't take you a week to get appointment with your GP and it won't take another 2 weeks to get you a slot with a specialist, who will in the end determine 99.99999% of cases to be just a case of flu, causing the eventual real ebola infection to be neglected. This won't be combined with the flu season and potential influx of patients exacerbating all the above issues I described.

Hey, but it will all be free!
The NHS is free

The NHS has problems

Where is the proof that these two facts are related though? Australia's Medicare is free and it works a lot better than the NHS.

Just look at the trains: Britain has privatized trains but they are a whole lot worse than publicly operated railways in Switzerland. There are other countries where public railways are bad though. There is no hard rule that privatized railways work better and there is no rule that says free health care is doomed. A lot of it is about the quality of the management and political agendas.

Nobody on this thread, myself included, has ever suggested abolishing co-payments or making everything in Swiss health care free of charge. The only point was about getting people to be checked for Ebola (if it actually becomes necessary). That said, if it would save lives, maybe those people who do need to stay home for 21 days should be paid to do so, just like the RAV pays people to look for jobs and the Swiss government pays farmers to maintain the land (because paying them subsidies would be wrong).
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  #139  
Old 07.10.2014, 15:42
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Re: Ebola in Switzerland

I though this thread was about scare mongering?

Have I missed something or hav e the cool heads won the day, again?

Reminds me of the movie "The Puppet Masters". They had a time projection display of the aliens spreading out over the entire planet.

If Ebola cannot be contained how long have we got to convert to the most profitable religion?

Time projection dissplay please...

Storm in a tea cup for Swiss citizens....so far
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  #140  
Old 07.10.2014, 15:50
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Re: Ebola in Switzerland

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If Ebola cannot be contained how long have we got to convert to the most profitable religion?
A long time ago on British TV there was a consumer report on religion.

The British based "Church of England" came out best because,

1. it didn't cost you much to join, or to leave
2. all the songs and talks were in English
3. plenty of sales outlets, one in every town
4. you could keep your foreskin
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