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Old 21.11.2014, 14:13
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Re: Children after Separation/Alimony

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Precisely why getting married is a scary thing (for a man). Its a business transaction. What can I get out of it. :-)
Why that earns a groan is a mystery - but ok, I'll take it

From a strictly legal point of view - yes the institute of marriage is a business transaction.

From a personal point of view - surely if you're willing to have a child with your partner you're committing for a life time anyway? So why not marry and ensure legal stability?
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  #22  
Old 21.11.2014, 14:18
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Re: Children after Separation/Alimony

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Why that earns a groan is a mystery - but ok, I'll take it

From a strictly legal point of view - yes the institute of marriage is a business transaction.

From a personal point of view - surely if you're willing to have a child with your partner you're committing for a life time anyway? So why not marry and ensure legal stability?
What's this legal stability you are talking about? Can you please elaborate? Thanks!
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  #23  
Old 21.11.2014, 14:19
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Re: Children after Separation/Alimony

Approximate rule of thumb for marriages in Switzerland.

(Total Assets - assets prior to marriage - inheritence)/2 is how the wealth accrued is split.

In a mutual marriage, where both parties are earning and there are no children, courts are unlikely to award alimony if the marriage has lasted <10 years.

In the case of children things change. Child support is dealt with separately, so we'll skip that for a moment. For alimony the primary care giver will receive a payment from the other party. Both parties have to submit their total income and expenditure and the court will decide on an equitable split. Typically this amount reduces over time as the primary care giver is required to return to work once the children pass various age milestones.

Things are never quite as black/white as above - and the courts are becoming a bit tighter where the primary care giver is highly qualified - even if they have been out of the workforce for a significent amount of time.

In the traditional model the alimony is there to compensate the woman for having given up her job/career to care for the home/family etc.

Divorce law in Switzerland is very different to the UK and US.
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Old 21.11.2014, 14:22
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Re: Children after Separation/Alimony

LawyerD:


> From a personal point of view - surely if you're willing to have a child with your partner you're committing for a life time anyway? So why not marry and ensure legal stability?


Committing to the child for a lifetime yes. Wanting to commit to your partner for a lifetime yes. That actually happening for a lifetime (doubtful nowadays). Either party could be responsible for the demise of a relationship (no blame here). The couple could simply lose interest in each other, without even mentioning things like cheating or sleeping around.


Legal stability? What does that mean? Nothing is stable, health, work and relationships even less. Although the idea is noble, same as lifelong love and marriage it is not realistic.


Why get tied up in a costly contract when quite clearly it will be broken.


Prenups could be a way of securing assets. I don't think many women would agree to prenups securing the man's assets when that clearly means she has to work every day until she is 65.
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  #25  
Old 21.11.2014, 14:27
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Re: Children after Separation/Alimony

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A judge granted that he pays nothing for his kids???
Yep. Although he has to share the cost of transport (he is still in the UK) so he has to pay for 1.5 visits a year.....
His income is not great (even by UK standards) and his wife showed the court that her income was around Ł585..... for the entire tax year.


and the funniest thing was that HE was the one with the problem about the judgement.
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  #26  
Old 21.11.2014, 14:29
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Re: Children after Separation/Alimony

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What's this legal stability you are talking about? Can you please elaborate? Thanks!
I can only speak with regards to Swiss Law. Firstly consider the death of a partner. If the couple were married, the spouse by law is a legal heir and has a statutory minimum percentage of the estate owed to them. Furthermore, spouses do not pay inheritance tax or pay very little.

A partner is not a legal heir, if you want your co-habitating partner to have any rights with regards to your estate you must have a valid will. The tax implications are also very high in such cases, because the partner is not a legal heir the tax will be a fair chunk (some cantons go as high as 50-60% of the inherited asset).

Then there are widow pensions etc.

Secondly, if there are children involved, inevitably one parent will have to spend the first few years mostly looking after the child and will not be able to earn to their full potential. This not only limits their financial strength on a monthly basis but also the pension contributions. By law if you divorce, pension funds are split to ensure the partner who did not work and earn as much is not financially disadvantaged through their providing "in natura" for their partner (taking care of the children/home etc). So, there is a certain amount of security on that front.

A third consideration is medical consent. Much like the inheritance issue, an unmarried partner has no immediate right to information or even the right to make decisions for their partner should they be unable to provide the consent for treatments themselves, unless there is a valid patient proviso.

Traditionally, yes the financial security in case of a divorce usually means the wife receives alimony payment. But this is not always the case any more. If the father was a mostly stay at home Dad and the primary carer, that obligation flips over so that he receives alimony.

These are just a few (and IMHO the most important) elements where Swiss Law provides better "security" or recognition for married couples rather than unmarried couples.

FYI: the same rights are extended to registered partnerships.
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  #27  
Old 21.11.2014, 14:30
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Re: Children after Separation/Alimony

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Hello,

My future husband has 2 kids, under the age of 6. He was never married to the mother. He pays child alimony. Once we are married, will this change the child alimony payment amount? Do you suggest we get legally married?

Also, once we have children of our own (my 1st child, and his 3rd child) how will the child alimony payment amounts that he pays be divided? Is it simply just divided by 3 children? Is it possible that he pay less for our child, than for his first 2 children, as I work 100% and the mother of the 2 kids works 50%?

Any advice on children after a separation is appreciated.
Going by what I see amongst people I know here - divorced/seperated/new partner etc and children, is that nothing changes.

He pays for his children according to whatever agreement he has and keeps paying until they are self-sufficient/qualified.
You both have "new" children if you can afford them.

To take it to ridiculous lengths (for an analogy) if you both produce 5 more children, the original first two of his previous life are not expected to suffer because of your "over-production".

I say this because there are a specific couple I know who would love to have their own child together, but cannot afford to, as they both support children from their previous marriages.
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Old 21.11.2014, 14:32
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Re: Children after Separation/Alimony

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I have never heard of a woman having to pay a man after a divorce.
I know of at least one case of this happening.

Tom
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  #29  
Old 21.11.2014, 14:32
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Re: Children after Separation/Alimony

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l
I have never heard of a woman having to pay a man after a divorce.

You can start here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Ritchie
(check info about his relationships)

than you can proceed and find more material on legal matters of marriage/divorce etc and try to understand out how it works. And why more vulnerable person in marriage get more protection.
I mean, it si you bringing fictions into debate presenting them as a fact.
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  #30  
Old 21.11.2014, 14:35
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Re: Children after Separation/Alimony

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To take it to ridiculous lengths (for an analogy) if you both produce 5 more children, the original first two of his previous life are not expected to suffer because of your "over-production".

I say this because there are a specific couple I know who would love to have their own child together, but cannot afford to, as they both support children from their previous marriages.
As much as I despise this: If the second couple are married, the Courts do view the financial commitment to the children in the second marriage as more important once the child out of the previous relationship is of age..

Yes the child from a previous relationship is not expected to suffer due to "over-production" BUT if financially the father is no longer able to pay amount X due to the costs of his new family, the father can apply to the Courts to have the child support reduced.
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  #31  
Old 21.11.2014, 14:49
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Re: Children after Separation/Alimony

lawyerd:


Good points for what happens in the event of a death. Clearly a will should be prepared.


I am still vehemently against marriage.


nejc: Fiction? What are you on about? More vulnerable? Why would a women be automatically more vulnerable? Its 2014, women are not automatically more vulnerable. In the west women have access to education, even higher education and can have a career and can make more money than even men. Granted, the work environment is not perfect and unequality is still an issue, but women are not more vulnerable than men.


In some situation they maybe have more problems to overcome, but a woman can be independent and financially independent. Long gone are the days were women could not work and had to stay at home and look after the children. (and were fully dependent on their husbands)
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  #32  
Old 21.11.2014, 14:59
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Re: Children after Separation/Alimony

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lawyerd:


Good points for what happens in the event of a death. Clearly a will should be prepared.


I am still vehemently against marriage.
The beauty is that you don't have to get married! It used to be illegal up until the late 70s/early 80s to co-habitate in the canton of Zurich! If you wanted to live with your partner you either had to turn it into a room-mate type situation with other room mates present. OR get married.

I respect your personal choice. But, my initial post recommending marriage to the OP does remain. From a legal perspective given her situation (as far as she has shared), a legal marriage would be best for her. She clearly intends to marry him anyway hence the reference to her "husband to be".

On a more philosophical basis: I think the law lags behind the social reality. Especially in Switzerland. Society has developed and allowed for different forms of family. Whether to the good of society or the detriment, one cannot say. But personally, I still believe the more traditional values, commitment of the institute of marriage play a central role. Saying that, I do respect all the other types of families. And yes, sometimes, when I've spent all day elbow-deep brokering and dealing with divorce, I sometimes wonder why people bother.

Out of curiosity - if you had to pay alimony to the mother of your child regardless of whether you were married or not, would you still be against marriage? OR would you perhaps be against having children in the first place?
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  #33  
Old 21.11.2014, 15:03
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Re: Children after Separation/Alimony

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Long gone are the days were women could not work and had to stay at home and look after the children. (and were fully dependent on their husbands)
Those days have not gone in large parts of rural Switzerland. In fact, the system almost seems to be designed to make it as difficult as possible for women to work even part time. Yes it's possible, but if you live in a small village and your kids come home for dinner then this makes working quite a problem.
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Old 21.11.2014, 15:08
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Re: Children after Separation/Alimony

Thank you all for your replies. It has been very helpful. I know have clarity on the marriage front, so thanks for that.

I still need to understand what happens when we have children, in regards to my future husband's alimony payments for his 2 kids. Will he still owe the same amount of alimony he is currently paying on a monthly basis? Or will it decrease if he has a 3rd child?

Thanks!
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  #35  
Old 21.11.2014, 15:11
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Re: Children after Separation/Alimony

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Thank you all for your replies. It has been very helpful. I know have clarity on the marriage front, so thanks for that.

I still need to understand what happens when we have children, in regards to my future husband's alimony payments for his 2 kids. Will he still owe the same amount of alimony he is currently paying on a monthly basis? Or will it decrease if he has a 3rd child?

Thanks!
Lawyerd directly answered that question.

It is likely he will continue to pay the amount agreed at present. If you do have a child (or more) and you fall into financial hardship you can petition the courts to lower the child support amount.
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  #36  
Old 21.11.2014, 15:12
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Re: Children after Separation/Alimony

Good points raises lawyerd.


> I respect your personal choice. But, my initial post recommending marriage to the OP does remain. From a legal perspective given her situation (as far as she has shared), a legal marriage would be best for her. She clearly intends to marry him anyway hence the reference to her "husband to be".



Fair enough, for her its in her interest to get married. I don't question that. (I wonder if the husband to be is also reading this thread) :-)

> On a more philosophical basis: I think the law lags behind the social reality. Especially in Switzerland. Society has developed and allowed for different forms of family. Whether to the good of society or the detriment, one cannot say.


Yes, and the law needs to catch up and adapt to how people line today.


> But personally, I still believe the more traditional values, commitment of the institute of marriage play a central role. Saying that, I do respect all the other types of families. And yes, sometimes, when I've spent all day elbow-deep brokering and dealing with divorce, I sometimes wonder why people bother.



I respect your opinion, and, in principle, agree with it. I have also seen the other end of it (not my personal situation) and also wonder why people do it.

> Out of curiosity - if you had to pay alimony to the mother of your child regardless of whether you were married or not, would you still be against marriage?


Totally. I am against it and having or not having children does not come into it. The woman is a vessel for the child during pregnancy. Assuming the man plays his part in the relationship (in every way) and makes it quite clear she also has to work, then she is fully responsible for financial well-being, then there is no surprise. A woman should be fully independent, financially too.


Correct me if I am wrong, but the alimony is only for the child's wellbeing. If the woman has always worked and continues to do so after the break-up, then I see no problem in paying what is legally due and more.


The child has nothing to do with the breakup and must be looked after (financially, emotionally, etc...)


> OR would you perhaps be against having children in the first place?


Not at all. I like children, I don't have any, that may change, who knows. I just don't see myself as somebody else's bank account. Things get done together or alone.
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Old 21.11.2014, 15:18
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Re: Children after Separation/Alimony

Personally, I like marriage.

In fact, I like it so much I've been married twice.

Never have been divorced, however.

Tom
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  #38  
Old 21.11.2014, 15:19
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Re: Children after Separation/Alimony

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lawyerd:
Why would a women be automatically more vulnerable? Its 2014,....
Easy. I wrote vulnerable person, you read vulnerable woman. In my opinion this is nice illustration where is the source of your delusions. You see ploting women everywhere. I mean, maybe you are single for too long*

Basicaly and very simplifed, life during marriage is shared, so is everything that you gain in the mean time. When you divorce, all of this will go on half.
Childern are separate case and both parents take their part of responsibility for them.

If one of the parterns (please read this time carefully: man or woman) put his career into the background to take care of domestic things than he or she is often compensated for this.

Most of this decisions are conscious and in mutual agreement between partners. You can also choose more balanced job/domestic life and in that case the after divorce obligations will be different.


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Old 21.11.2014, 15:20
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Re: Children after Separation/Alimony

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Funny post. Thanks.

I have never heard of a woman having to pay a man after a divorce. And I certainly wouldn't be going into a relationship/marriage with a "what will I get out of it expectation".

Funny you even thought about mentioning that, you just proved my point. :-) {I assume you are a woman}
I have. I think she is still single. Do you want her number? Some how I'm not sure she'd be that into you though.
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Old 21.11.2014, 15:23
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Re: Children after Separation/Alimony

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> OR would you perhaps be against having children in the first place?


Not at all. I like children, I don't have any, that may change, who knows. I just don't see myself as somebody else's bank account. Things get done together or alone.
Not even your child's?
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