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-   -   domestic abuse and divorce (https://www.englishforum.ch/family-matters-health/231724-domestic-abuse-divorce.html)

faithope 14.04.2015 10:25

domestic abuse and divorce
 
Hello. I am thinking about divorcing my husband. Has anybody any idea how audio records of physical abuse are seen by the Swiss Court and if they are enough to get a sole custody of a child and divorce without separation period? I will be contacting a lawyer soon just wondering....also any thoughts on what proof would I need to prove psychological abuse? I think I need to protect myself from my abusive husband.sadly. 💔 'feeling alone' thanks for any thoughts.

Sbrinz 14.04.2015 10:37

Re: domestic abuse and divorce
 
I think you should ask these questions after you have been to the lawyer.

There are tough Swiss laws, you might be surprised after your visit. For instance, why should your child be deprived of a father because of your poor relationship?

Nil 14.04.2015 10:53

Re: domestic abuse and divorce
 
If you are physically abused, you should get out of the home and seek help and refuge immediately.

You can think of the next steps once you are in a safe place.

NotAllThere 14.04.2015 12:00

Re: domestic abuse and divorce
 
Physical abuse is best backed up by doctor's reports. Once you've got to a safe place.

swissmama 15.04.2015 22:03

Re: domestic abuse and divorce
 
If you're being abused, keep a record and take pictures. Get yourself a good lawyer and you can user article 115 to divorce without waiting the 2 years.

Guest 15.04.2015 23:43

Re: domestic abuse and divorce
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by swissmama (Post 2375273)
If you're being abused, keep a record and take pictures. Get yourself a good lawyer and you can user article 115 to divorce without waiting the 2 years.

Article 115 CC can only be used as basis for a divorce if maintaining the legal relationship between partners is deemed unreasonable for OP by the judge.

If only living together is the problem, OP can apply for separation (Eheschutz) and move out. Then, after 2 years of living in separation, OP can file for divorce (Art. 114). Filing for divorce without waiting for 2 years is only possible if either the parties file jointly or if (as I outlined above) maintaining the legal relationship is deemed unreasonable.

More detailed info on achieving separation here
It isn't necessary for you to have a lawyer for a separation procedure, but in your case, OP, I would recommend it. You can find lawyers in your region by searching for "Anwaltsregister" + [your district/city]
Also, for any injuries you suffer, go to the doctor and get them documented. Give all documentation to your lawyer.

Medea Fleecestealer 16.04.2015 08:13

Re: domestic abuse and divorce
 
Depending on your nationality and how long you've been married you need to be careful here. If you're a non-EU national and your permit is dependent on being married to him you could lose the right to live here.

Also the default custody for children is now joint; I've no idea what sort of proof you'd need to supply to gain sole custody, but it is only granted in special cases.

There more info here:

https://www.ch.ch/en/divorce/

Just_A_Mutt 16.04.2015 09:43

Re: domestic abuse and divorce
 
If you and/or your child are victims of domestic abuse the first thing you need to do is get to a safe place AWAY from your abuser... full stop!

Sorting out options, divorce, and custody are things that can get worked out. Sadly I'm not in your area and don't know a whole lot about how things work here but a preliminary google search did provide me with this info:

http://neu.bif-frauenberatung.ch/wor...lish-englisch/.

The damage (short term and long term) that domestic violence can wreck upon individuals and families is pretty rough. Please know that the sooner you make a move to help yourself and your child the sooner you can be placed in a position to take charge and CHANGE your life and the life of your child FOR THE BETTER. (Might not always be easy, but it can be done!)

I'll keep you in my thoughts and hope that if time and circumstances allow you will post back and let EF folks know how things worked out for you.


Ps. Sbrinz- I don't think a child would be denied a relationship with their father because of a poor relationship between partners. However I DO think it could be denied ( and perhaps rightly so) if physical and emotional safety and well-being of child OR other parent is at stake.

Guest 16.04.2015 11:50

Re: domestic abuse and divorce
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Just_A_Mutt (Post 2375417)
If you and/or your child are victims of domestic abuse the first thing you need to do is get to a safe place AWAY from your abuser... full stop!

Sorting out options, divorce, and custody are things that can get worked out. Sadly I'm not in your area and don't know a whole lot about how things work here but a preliminary google search did provide me with this info:

http://neu.bif-frauenberatung.ch/wor...lish-englisch/.

An important link is Swiss Women's shelters in the different cantons

OP, best to call a shelter (from a safe place outside of your home!) and request an appointment or tell them that you need help asap.

Quote:

Has anybody any idea how audio records of physical abuse are seen by the Swiss Court and if they are enough to get a sole custody of a child and divorce without separation period?
Recording a private conversation without consent of all parties involved is illegal. Source

Quote:

also any thoughts on what proof would I need to prove psychological abuse?
On admissible proof in general: The more you can get on paper, the better. As I have written above, for any injuries visit a doctor so as to receive medical help as well as documentation of the injuries.
Inform your lawyer of anything that they tell you to inform them of, no matter how minuscule the matter might seem.

Sbrinz 16.04.2015 13:01

Re: domestic abuse and divorce
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Just_A_Mutt (Post 2375417)
Ps. Sbrinz- I don't think a child would be denied a relationship with their father because of a poor relationship between partners. However I DO think it could be denied ( and perhaps rightly so) if physical and emotional safety and well-being of child OR other parent is at stake.

The point I made is that a sole custody will deny the child a father. A joint custody is today the norm here.
Violent fathers have supervised visits, sometimes in a secure place, but they could also still have joint custody.
The OP needs to get some proper advice from her lawyer, not on a Forum for foreigners.

jims 16.04.2015 13:16

Re: domestic abuse and divorce
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sbrinz (Post 2374265)
why should your child be deprived of a father because of your poor relationship?

you mean a physically abusive relationships?

half the comments on this forum blow my mind sometimes

Sbrinz 16.04.2015 13:24

Re: domestic abuse and divorce
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jims (Post 2375525)
you mean a physically abusive relationships?

half the comments on this forum blow my mind sometimes

Maybe you should start at post 1 and read the thread completely?

kanga 16.04.2015 13:43

Re: domestic abuse and divorce
 
reach out for professional help immediately and ask here www.frauenberatung.ch . They speak english, too and are very helpful. All the best!

MusicChick 16.04.2015 13:51

Re: domestic abuse and divorce
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sbrinz (Post 2375514)
The point I made is that a sole custody will deny the child a father. A joint custody is today the norm here.

It is not the norm here, but the access to joint custody is the norm, that is very true. Whether the father can get it or not, depends on the judge. Joint custody should be the starting point, the judge will see to assure the best conditions for the child, ie financial and being provided for, security, where the child is used to go to school, social integration, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sbrinz (Post 2375514)
Violent fathers have supervised visits, sometimes in a secure place, but they could also still have joint custody.

That sentence makes zero sense. Violent fathers have supervised visits but could still have joint custody? If the father is dangerous to the child and mother contests the joint custody, or, reports and the system will report to the judge, the joint custody will not happen. I think you are talking about parental rights, not the actual joint custody (ie with whom the child will stay).

I am with you on the legal support OP needs to see, but first of all, she needs to make sure her place is secure. Next step, if she does not have a lawyer already, is the dept. of social affairs, they can assign a lawyer to her, or, she can have a cheap, subsidized, short term legal help and take it from there.

Assassin 16.04.2015 13:59

Re: domestic abuse and divorce
 
Why is everyone suggesting that the poster should leave and go to a safe place?

Get it reported to the authorities and get the perpetrator to move out! It's bad enough when someone you thought you loved beats the crap out of you without the victim having to go to the trouble of finding a new place to live.

To the poster, hope you can sort this out. Domestic abuse is one of those crimes that rarely airs out in public, but to those that think they can hide behind closed doors, you can't. But it will take some willpower to kick his cowardly ass out and keep it that way.

Sbrinz 16.04.2015 14:50

Re: domestic abuse and divorce
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MusicChick (Post 2375553)
That sentence makes zero sense. Violent fathers have supervised visits but could still have joint custody? If the father is dangerous to the child and mother contests the joint custody, or, reports and the system will report to the judge, the joint custody will not happen. I think you are talking about parental rights, not the actual joint custody (ie with whom the child will stay).

I think one of us has misunderstood the Swiss situation.

If the father is not violent to the child, then the mother has no grounds for stopping him seeing his child, nor taking the child abroad on holiday.
The OP started off on the wrong foot, demanding sole custody because her husband is violent towards her. That is not acceptable.

Legal guardianship = child custody = Sorgerecht = garde

Awarding joint custody to both parents has been normal here since 2013,
http://www.beobachter.ch/familie/tre...um-normalfall/

Sorgerecht in Switzerland has nothing to do with living together, nor visiting rights,
http://www.beobachter.ch/stichwortve...rt/sorgerecht/

http://www.divorce-service.ch/pages/...de-lenfant.php

http://www.entretiens.ch/articles/02..._alternee.html
.

Taty99 16.04.2015 15:21

Re: domestic abuse and divorce
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by faithope (Post 2374255)
Hello. I am thinking about divorcing my husband. Has anybody any idea how audio records of physical abuse are seen by the Swiss Court and if they are enough to get a sole custody of a child and divorce without separation period? I will be contacting a lawyer soon just wondering....also any thoughts on what proof would I need to prove psychological abuse? I think I need to protect myself from my abusive husband.sadly. 💔 'feeling alone' thanks for any thoughts.

Hello, I've been through this... I also got recordings but my lawyer told me that they are not valid in the courts.

I have spent thousands on lawyers, and still not over, no phisical abuse, just psicological abuse... it's quite hard to prove the psicological one... if you want to call me you can, send me a personal message.
all the best.

Guest 16.04.2015 15:21

Re: domestic abuse and divorce
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Assassin (Post 2375559)
Why is everyone suggesting that the poster should leave and go to a safe place?

Get it reported to the authorities and get the perpetrator to move out! It's bad enough when someone you thought you loved beats the crap out of you without the victim having to go to the trouble of finding a new place to live.

To the poster, hope you can sort this out. Domestic abuse is one of those crimes that rarely airs out in public, but to those that think they can hide behind closed doors, you can't. But it will take some willpower to kick his cowardly ass out and keep it that way.

It is not easy to have someone permanently removed from your living quarters. Police can (in Canton ZH, where OP is) remove someone from somewhere for only max. 14 days at a time.

If you want someone to be made to move out of your flat permanently, the lease between that person and the landlord has to end. This can be achieved by getting a court ruling (e.g. in a separation procedure) which states that the OP shall be allowed to live in the apartment with the child. Then the landlord has the basis to terminate the lease with the husband only, thus forcing him to move out.

Until a separation procedure can be started, OP should be somewhere safe, and as I (and some other posters) don't see that this safe place is in her apartment (as the husband legally can enter the apartment any time he wants), we recommend her leaving. I suggest the Frauenhaus because that place's address is secret and people there are trained to deal with OP's situation and to find appropriate legal, social and other help for her.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sbrinz (Post 2375588)
I think one of us has misunderstood the Swiss situation.

If the father is not violent to the child, then the mother has no grounds for stopping him seeing his child, nor taking the child abroad on holiday.
The OP started off on the wrong foot, demanding sole custody because her husband is violent towards her. That is not acceptable.

The priority for courts is always the child's welfare.
Independently of the relationship between the parents, the father and child have rights to contact with each other. It is up to the courts to decide if the impact of the parents' relationship is endangering the child's welfare, in which case they would probably rule against visitation by the father.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taty99 (Post 2375619)
Hello, I've been through this... I also got recordings but my lawyer told me that they are not valid in the courts.

Yes, as I said above, without proof of agreement to recordings you can't use those in court, they're inadmissible.
If OP's husband decides to threaten her in writing (through e-mails, letters, SMS), that is easier to use as proof as they can be printed with date and time on them and they would really help the paper trail which is very often necessary to settle this kind of case.

lawyerd 16.04.2015 15:26

Re: domestic abuse and divorce
 
As Sbrinz has said - custody here is not the same as what most english speaking people understand custody to be. Parental "rights" are split into several different levels. The basic custody covers the right to make decisions for the child and is not to be confused with where the child lives. Child custody cannot simply be allocated to one parent. However, the right to live with the child can and usually still is allocated to one parent (the primary carer).

A Parent has a right to access. If the parent has a history of abuse it takes a very very high level before a court will revoke that right. Simply because we have contact centres for supervised visitation. Hence, there is a "milder" solution and so a judge will always hesitate in revoking visitation rights. To be quite honest, in reality it also takes a lot before such supervised visitation is ordered.. Sadly often to the detriment to the child or children.

For the OP: Go see a lawyer and get advice specifically pertaining to your circumstances. If your husband is abusive, follow the advice of going to a women's shelter as others have already advised.

Yes of course it would be "fairer" if she simply has the husband kicked out. But this takes time, is tricky to enforce and offers little protection in case the husband "freaks out". A women's shelter however provides a little extra security for you and your child/children as there are others there and he doesn't need to know exactly where you are living...

Recorded be that sound or video will not be admissible in court unless the husband knew he was being filmed/recorded and agreed to it.. furthermore, he would then have to agree to it being played in court. Highly unlikely to happen. Get medical records. You can photograph your own bruises.. it can help as documentation, but will not prove your case in court. But it can possibly help.

Good luck.

FuriousRose 16.04.2015 15:49

Re: domestic abuse and divorce
 
OP, I'm sorry to hear that this thing happened to you. I also second the idea to get somewhere safe as your priority. Any other things needed for separation or divorce process can be done once you are already in the safer place. I'd also recommend the Frauenhaus for this, and, apart from the lawyer, they maybe can give you some ideas how to proceed with your problem.


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