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  #101  
Old 26.06.2007, 15:12
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Re: kids in swiss school

I also thought that welcome and catch up classes were part of the curriculum for children who did not speak the local language. This was mentioned on the websites wherever I looked up for schooling in geneva. But when my daughter went to school she had no extra classes or catchup for settling into the system. Isn't it supposed to be apart of the curriculum?

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Parts of Canton Bern also have them but sadly not everywhere .It also depends on demand , as rough rule of thumb I'd say; where there are more foreign migrants moving to an area ,chances are there will be such a class
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  #102  
Old 27.07.2007, 17:11
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Re: kids in swiss school

I am moving to Zurich in the next couple of weeks and am in exactly the same boat in terms of integrating the children into kindergarten on barely any swiss german. If you would like to keep in touch then please let me know.

Gill.
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  #103  
Old 30.07.2007, 10:58
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Re: kids in swiss school

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I am moving to Zurich in the next couple of weeks and am in exactly the same boat in terms of integrating the children into kindergarten on barely any swiss german. If you would like to keep in touch then please let me know.
at that age, this'll only be a problem for a month or so - when they suddenly start speaking Swiss German very much to the surprise of the parents :-)
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  #104  
Old 15.08.2007, 14:19
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Re: kids in swiss school

Hi
well i really get sad when i read all this... i still dont have a child, but i will be a mother in february , and i already start to think to much in how will be for my kid.
many people say you must try to speak german, the problem is I understand german, but when i used that dont work :-( i live in Thalwil, here the people just use really really swiss german and for me is so dificult you really dont understand nothing...
but am still think in contunea with my german lessons...
So maybe that is the best.. leanr german and then swiss german :-(
(my husband is german so for me dont work also to much)
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  #105  
Old 15.08.2007, 21:52
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Re: kids in swiss school

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Hi
well i really get sad when i read all this... i still dont have a child, but i will be a mother in february , and i already start to think to much in how will be for my kid.
many people say you must try to speak german, the problem is I understand german, but when i used that dont work :-( i live in Thalwil, here the people just use really really swiss german and for me is so dificult you really dont understand nothing...
but am still think in contunea with my german lessons...
So maybe that is the best.. leanr german and then swiss german :-(
(my husband is german so for me dont work also to much)
MaKita, whatever you do, speak Spanish to your kid! Most children can easily handle two languages, as long as your husband does his bit of speaking.

We had our oldest in Denmark, and my Portuguese wife has never spoken anything else than Portuguese to him. When he started to speak he now and then mixed words, but mostly to us where he knew it didn't matter.

He now speaks perfect Danish, fluent if not grammatically correct Portuguese and is proud of both backgrounds. Without Portuguese, he would not be able to speak to my wife's family.

Do not let anyone convince you otherwise - they are plain wrong. As academics, we did quite some research on the subject - have a go on Amazon.

Good luck with your German

/Martin
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  #106  
Old 16.08.2007, 09:48
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Re: kids in swiss school

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MaKita, whatever you do, speak Spanish to your kid! Most children can easily handle two languages, as long as your husband does his bit of speaking.

We had our oldest in Denmark, and my Portuguese wife has never spoken anything else than Portuguese to him. When he started to speak he now and then mixed words, but mostly to us where he knew it didn't matter.

He now speaks perfect Danish, fluent if not grammatically correct Portuguese and is proud of both backgrounds. Without Portuguese, he would not be able to speak to my wife's family.

Do not let anyone convince you otherwise - they are plain wrong. As academics, we did quite some research on the subject - have a go on Amazon.

Good luck with your German

/Martin
I second this. Bringing up children bi or multi-lingual, is great but it only really works if each of you consistently speaks your own language to the children. Don't let yourself be pushed into having to speak a foreign language to your own child. However difficult it might be in the beginning, your child will thank you for it later.

If you don't start speaking Spanish to your child right from the beginning it will become harder and harder to start up with it. The older the child gets the more resistance they will show towards your language.
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  #107  
Old 22.08.2007, 17:12
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Re: kids in swiss school

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I second this. Bringing up children bi or multi-lingual, is great but it only really works if each of you consistently speaks your own language to the children. Don't let yourself be pushed into having to speak a foreign language to your own child. However difficult it might be in the beginning, your child will thank you for it later.
I totally agree. When I first moved here I felt self-conscious speaking to my daughter in English when we were out in public (she speaks Swiss German with dad) but I have just gotten a thick skin about it. So don't let anyone make you feel badly about speaking your language with your child. You are doing them a huge favour for their future prospects. All my husband's Swiss friend's think it's so cool that our child is growing up bi-lingual (as my husband did). In the words of one: "She's going to ace her English classes, just like [her dad] did, with hardly having to study."

The latest studies have shown that children who are bi-lingual use more of their brain. Also that a child can learn a second language fluently even if they are exposed to it as little as 30% of the time, and that children who know more than one language learn additional languages more easily. These were all the things I reminded myself of when I felt conspicuous.

now back to the regularly scheduled topic of kids in Swiss schools
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  #108  
Old 23.08.2007, 07:48
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Re: kids in swiss school

Hi.
Having arrived last October I can give a first-hand feedback what the experience has been in the Zurich area.

My 8 year daughter was assigned to a Kleineklass, and there has been no drama there: only one of the students had learning problems, all other (about 8 or so), just didn't speak German. Being with kids of other nationalities and even with learning problems brought only good things to her, as tolerance and respect for others. Integrated from day 1, she naturally got to speak German in a couple of months. With the school year end she was transfered to the school on our block to a regular class, and once again started to get invitations for birthday parties on the 3rd day of school from swiss nationals (which I fully supported her to attend).
My younger one with 6, went through the regular kindergarden, and apart from the initial fears everything went just as well.

Regarding the prejudices of non-nationals not making up to the Gymnasium or so, I regard them as purely statistical. I have the figure of 10% of the students making it (overall, swiss or not), and the question is "How much support are you willing to give to your kids to help them with school?".
Being in Switzerland or anywhere else, parents with long hours and no other support system just make it harder for the children to succeed. I would assume that a large part of the immigrants have to work long hours being it from lower income groups or investment bankers :-) . Top that with the fact that if you are not willing to learn German, you can't help them even if you wanted : of course it will be harder, and therefore more "probable" to not make it to the "10%". My question would be: do you think that your child would be on the top 10% on your mother tongue on your country ? What can you do to help him/her top that in German? (as far as I understand German and Math are the two subjects most relevant up to the 6th grade, for this purpose).

I can only say that if you are commited to your children's education, the public system is generally great, although I'd believe there will be unfortunate exceptions for sure.
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  #109  
Old 23.08.2007, 09:29
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Re: kids in swiss school

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Regarding the prejudices of non-nationals not making up to the Gymnasium or so, I regard them as purely statistical. I have the figure of 10% of the students making it (overall, swiss or not), and the question is "How much support are you willing to give to your kids to help them with school?".
Being in Switzerland or anywhere else, parents with long hours and no other support system just make it harder for the children to succeed. I would assume that a large part of the immigrants have to work long hours being it from lower income groups or investment bankers :-) . Top that with the fact that if you are not willing to learn German, you can't help them even if you wanted : of course it will be harder, and therefore more "probable" to not make it to the "10%". My question would be: do you think that your child would be on the top 10% on your mother tongue on your country ? What can you do to help him/her top that in German? (as far as I understand German and Math are the two subjects most relevant up to the 6th grade, for this purpose).

I can only say that if you are commited to your children's education, the public system is generally great, although I'd believe there will be unfortunate exceptions for sure.
I think you will find that the figure of 10% is way out! Something like 25% of students start Gymnasium and only 25% of those finish it! What does that tell you about the teaching abilities here or is it maybe the system.

This means only 5% achieve the Eidgenossiche Matura - needed to study subjects such as law or medicine.

If you believe the statistics then this is way less than the number of foreign pupils, as one would expect 20%. I am assuming here that the 8% from the 13% total that go to an international school are 99% foreign - this could be incorrect and I am assuming that foreign families that make up 20% of the population produce as many children as the Swiss native population. Then consider the Swiss population as a whole. Here foreign workers are generally highly qualified and highly intelligent and as such one would reasonably expect that they produce intelligent kids so why is the figure such a misrepresentation of foreigners - could this be prejudice? I am not saying it is just the figures are rather strange.

And to your question would you expect your child to be in the top 10% in your own country - well yes I would if I was in the top 0.5%, indeed if the investment in the primary years is high then for sure as Swiss children are told to go play, I never was it was more like go learn, show me what you have done and if it is good enough then you can play or read a book... What is certainly true is if you send your child to a science and mathematics Gymnasium then the education they receive will be of a very similar level or better in most subjects (languages being an exception) to that in other countries of the world. Its just getting your child in - again I have known families from foreign backgrounds needing to get lawyers to get their children in and others being told it will be better if your child goes to the lower school - less stressful and seeing as German is not your mother tongue also for you
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  #110  
Old 23.08.2007, 09:35
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Re: kids in swiss school

2 quick things added:

from the 1st hand experience, if the initial approach to kids is difficult in a new class (is it ever easy???), I also see that it gets better as classes progress. Teachers are more interested and take more interest in the kids they teach, maybe because they teach selected subjects and are more involved and knowledgeable? I am in Vaud... so it may not apply to the German areas.

second: an interesting article on bilinguism... as per recent research, it appears that being bilingual create brain structures that work to protect against the onset of Alzheimer's disease...
http://www.boston.com/yourlife/healt...imers_disease/
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  #111  
Old 23.08.2007, 09:46
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Re: kids in swiss school

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I second this. Bringing up children bi or multi-lingual, is great but it only really works if each of you consistently speaks your own language to the children. Don't let yourself be pushed into having to speak a foreign language to your own child. However difficult it might be in the beginning, your child will thank you for it later.

If you don't start speaking Spanish to your child right from the beginning it will become harder and harder to start up with it. The older the child gets the more resistance they will show towards your language.
I can third it, our littlie is coming on 24 months shortly & my wife tlks Slovak with him alone at home, German out & about or when I am there & I only speak English with him.

OK, we have the occasional salad & he is going a little slower than some of his single language playgroup kids, but he understands a hell of a lot more than we sometimes give him credit for.

Stick with it, they are like little sponges & he will soak it all up
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  #112  
Old 23.08.2007, 09:51
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Re: kids in swiss school

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Here foreign workers are generally highly qualified and highly intelligent and as such one would reasonably expect that they produce intelligent kids so why is the figure such a misrepresentation of foreigners - could this be prejudice? I am not saying it is just the figures are rather strange.
I would challange the fact that "most immigrants are highly qualified and highly intelligent". I believe that those that believe so, will call themself expats rather than immigrants and attend fancy Internet foruns ;-)


Please, don't take me wrong. It is clear for me that kids should have the same access to the same levels of education. My point was only, that it's only fair to expect that "on average" native families, will have an easier environment for kids to have better German levels. I would assume that those parents that made it to the 0.5% top, understand the value of education and will do anything they deem as necessary to compensate that. My question regards the other 99.5%...
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  #113  
Old 23.08.2007, 10:05
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Re: kids in swiss school

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I would challange the fact that "most immigrants are highly qualified and highly intelligent". I believe that those that believe so, will call themself expats rather than immigrants and attend fancy Internet foruns ;-)


Please, don't take me wrong. It is clear for me that kids should have the same access to the same levels of education. My point was only, that it's only fair to expect that "on average" native families, will have an easier environment for kids to have better German levels. I would assume that those parents that made it to the 0.5% top, understand the value of education and will do anything they deem as necessary to compensate that. My question regards the other 99.5%...
Okay let me qualify my previous statement. Many people who come to work in Switzerland are coming because they are highly intelligent and have special skills not available in the Swiss home market. I don't agree that they call themselves expats as that requires special and very distinct conditions to be met. Many if not most foreigners here are on local contracts and not expat contracts.

Why do I belive that the "imported foreigners" are highly intelligent? Because if you are not then until 2 or 3 years ago you simply would not have got in - those still here from the 60s and 70s are largely now Swiss citizens. The statistics I am quoting from (Eidgenossische Statistikamt) only have data for Gymnasium attendance up to 2005 hence predate the period of "opening the floodgates" for EU citizens.

And as you so rightly say if you yourself are highly or even moderately intelligent you are fully aware of the need to ensure adequate education of your children and that can only be in the Gymnasium system.

With respect to German language. Will it indeed be easier for native Swiss to have a better environment for German? How many non-Swiss Germans live in the Swiss German part of Switzerland and does having Swiss German speaking parents make it easier or more difficult for the pupil? I say this as there was, until probably recently, open discrimination against pupils with German, as in real "Deutsche", parents as they spoke high German and understood German grammar something many Swiss Germans are not so comfortable with - also intelligent ones!
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  #114  
Old 23.08.2007, 10:18
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Re: kids in swiss school

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Okay let me qualify my previous statement. Many people who come to work in Switzerland are coming because they are highly intelligent and have special skills not available in the Swiss home market.
I believe my portuguese nationality gives me a different view of the facts.

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With respect to German language. Will it indeed be easier for native Swiss to have a better environment for German? How many non-Swiss Germans live in the Swiss German part of Switzerland and does having Swiss German speaking parents make it easier or more difficult for the pupil? I say this as there was, until probably recently, open discrimination against pupils with German, as in real "Deutsche", parents as they spoke high German and understood German grammar something many Swiss Germans are not so comfortable with - also intelligent ones!
You are 100% correct if at home kids find proficient High-German speakers. If the parents speak worst german (on whatever form) than their friends at school, then it doesn't apply even if the parents can fluently talk other 4 languages. But then... that's why I'm trying to hire a German nanny :-)
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  #115  
Old 23.08.2007, 10:26
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Re: kids in swiss school

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I believe my portuguese nationality gives me a different view of the facts.



You are 100% correct if at home kids find proficient High-German speakers. If the parents speak worst german (on whatever form) than their friends at school, then it doesn't apply even if the parents can fluently talk other 4 languages. But then... that's why I'm trying to hire a German nanny :-)
HAve you got a German nanny in mind? or are you looking for one. I have potentially two possibles.
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  #116  
Old 23.08.2007, 14:22
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Re: kids in swiss school

Hmmmm.
The statement about "highly intelligent, highly qualified" makes me a little uncomfortable, frankly.

I arrived here in 1976 - so I guess I am somehow part of the old wave - from Italy. Since then I lived moved a few times, and only recently came back to good ol' Confederatio Helvetica (no, I am still not a Swiss citizen, and I still consider myself as an expat, even if I am not sure really from where).

I was lucky enough to be an "expat", or rather my parents were, and I was the fortunate offspring of high education (ugh). As such, schools and university was offered to me as a matter of course (even if the occasional racist line could not be avoided at the time)... but I remember a large number of immigrant kids - with lots less luck. While in my home education was a must, reading was seen as a dedicated occupation, languages as a key to a wider world, for some of my schoolmates it was rather the opposite. In their homes, integration was seen as a menace, reading a waste of time, studying as a waste of working years.

These were not "highly skilled" folks. They came in as unskilled workers (and please note that I have a huge respect for what they build and how far they got!!), at a time when construction workers could not be found here. Of course they got in!!! there was a need for those hands, so the law allowed entry, often first as seasonal workers, then extending a B permit... eventually getting a C permit. Today, you can see similar situations - only the nationalitities of the workers coming in as "unskilled" vary with with the years. Now, nurses come in from Canada, Czech and Slovak Republic, Croatia and Slovenia (they are skilled, in something that swiss citizen don't want to study...). Workers come in from Turkey and the whole eastern block. I do not know how education fares in those families... statistics and studies aren't really in yet... I hope better than in the "once upon a time" picture.
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  #117  
Old 23.08.2007, 16:31
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Re: kids in swiss school

If you search for "gymnasiale Maturität" here, there will be this .xls file among the results. It states that in 2005, 18.9% of all scholars went to the Gymnasium and got the Matur in the end. Another "12.2%" of probably older people got a Matur without going to the Gymnasium.

In my experience, at least a quarter of all students drop out of the Gymnasium after the initial three months test period. Once you're through that I estimate the chances to get the Matur to be about 90%.
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  #118  
Old 27.08.2007, 13:56
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Re: kids in swiss school

Just found this forum (after being here 2 years, doh)

My son started the local school last year (he is 7), at first it was hard, he didn't speak german and the children didn't speak english, the other parents didn't (and to some extent still don't) want to know us, and he didn't get invited to other childrens houses / parties, the only person who invited him round was the family who had lived in england for a little while.

Anyway fortunatly his birthday was a couple of months after he started school, so we invited all the children we could to Karting then McDonalds, cost quite a bit but seemed to do the trick, he now seems to be accepted by the other children and there parents, gets invited to parties and round houses etc.

We cant fault the school either (Otelfingen) they have been excellent, he picked up german to the same level as the local children in 6 months.

I was a major worry for my wife and I that he would be the outsider and unhappy, but thank god its all worked out.

Kids respond to bribery quite well
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  #119  
Old 10.09.2007, 17:58
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Re: kids in swiss school

Put ads up in the local shops for an English Teddy bear's tea picnic get-to-gether. Choose a safe public spot, not your home. Say all-welcome English speaking or not. Keep it a secret from your child, incase no-one turns up, then it's just the two of you!

Find out what activities these kids do besides school, enroll your child and offer to help.

You will have to model to your child how to make friends. You may have to take the intitiative in introductions. Anyone who turns the cold-shoulder isn't worth knowing anyway!

Good luck
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  #120  
Old 10.09.2007, 20:24
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Re: kids in swiss school

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Put ads up in the local shops for an English Teddy bear's tea picnic get-to-gether. Choose a safe public spot, not your home. Say all-welcome English speaking or not. Keep it a secret from your child, incase no-one turns up, then it's just the two of you!

Find out what activities these kids do besides school, enroll your child and offer to help.

You will have to model to your child how to make friends. You may have to take the intitiative in introductions. Anyone who turns the cold-shoulder isn't worth knowing anyway!

Good luck
Great idea! I will absolutely try the teddy-bear-tea-party-thing. Face the fear and do it anyway. if you don't ask you won't get. If you don't try you will never succeed. I will show my girl how brave I can be and this will encourage her to be just as brave. Thank you so much for this tips.
Annette
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