Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Family matters/health  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08.08.2017, 06:50
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 32
Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post
Thanked 11 Times in 7 Posts
HKCH has no particular reputation at present
Adoption - Swiss living abroad

OK, so this is a little backwards for these forums.

I am a Swiss citizen, living in Hong Kong, and my wife is from HK. We have two kids that are both CH/HK citizens. Plan to move to Switzerland 2018 or 2019 (as soon as we can afford to leave HK)

Our nephew (my wifes sisters son) is 15 and never lived with his parents, but always his biological mother's sister (my wife, his aunt) and their mother (my mother-in-law). He was in reality brought up by my wife and mother-in-law, while his (bio) father has official custody (but our nephew never lived there, apart from a few days at a time, occasionally).

Unfortunately, my mother-in-law was recently taken away from us, way too early, by the cruel serial killer called cancer. Despite our nephew having both his parents alive, he is living with us. Very well integrated, all is fine, and we are all happy (and will be even more happy after we move to CH, though).

As a Swiss citizen living in Hong Kong, married to a Hong Kong woman - how do we go around adoption? Our nephew is in all practical ways already our son as such, but not legally. Would it be easier to adopt him in Hong Kong, or in Switzerland? It is important for us that we not only get full custody as parents, but also get him a (Swiss) passport in the process. Hence, if a local HK adoption process isn't recognized by the Swiss authorities, it would be a waste of time.

As far as I can see, both HK and CH are in the Hague convention, so as I understand it - either country will accept the adoption process of the other. Is that correct?

Since he is almost 16, and we want to move soon, time is also an issue.

Thank you for your feedback.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 08.08.2017, 08:01
Medea Fleecestealer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 22,318
Groaned at 411 Times in 319 Posts
Thanked 17,349 Times in 9,734 Posts
Medea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Adoption - Swiss living abroad

a) Would the biological father and mother agree to an adoption? What are their rights under HK law? You cannot adopt in Switzerland since you don't live here. Nor would you be able to adopt him under Swiss law since your wife isn't his mother.

https://www.ch.ch/en/adopting-children/

b) Swiss citizenship is not possible since he's not your son, but your wife's nephew. Nor does the Swiss Naturalisation Act seem to allow adopted children to be considered for facilitated naturalisation.

https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/en/home...uergerung.html

The only way he can gain naturalisation would be after living here for the required number of years under regular naturalisation and meeting the other requirements.

The new citizenship law comes into force on 1st January 2018 and will require: 10 years Federal Swiss residency (children between the ages of 8 and 18 years count double), C permit, cantonal and communal/gemeinde residency requirements (these vary - cantonal requirements are being harmonised under the new law to between 2 and 5 years, not sure if the same applies to communes/gemeindes), integration, familiarity with Swiss history, etc, not be a threat to Switzerland and comply with Swiss law.

The current regular naturalisation requirements are here:

https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/en/home...uergerung.html

c) If the father already has full custody why would a HK court change that? Presumably the custody order has been in place for some time so what grounds can you provide to have the order changed? I don't know HK law with regards to this, but unless you can prove he's violent or a danger to his son somehow I can't see you being able to change the custody order.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 08.08.2017, 08:32
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 31,914
Groaned at 2,389 Times in 1,737 Posts
Thanked 38,858 Times in 18,317 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Adoption - Swiss living abroad

Quote:
View Post
b) Swiss citizenship is not possible since he's not your son, but your wife's nephew. Nor does the Swiss Naturalisation Act seem to allow adopted children to be considered for facilitated naturalisation.

https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/en/home...uergerung.html
It does not say that.

Tom
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 08.08.2017, 08:42
Medea Fleecestealer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 22,318
Groaned at 411 Times in 319 Posts
Thanked 17,349 Times in 9,734 Posts
Medea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Adoption - Swiss living abroad

I did say "seem" Tom. Instead of rolling eyes, how about providing the OP with info that will help?
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 08.08.2017, 09:44
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 31,914
Groaned at 2,389 Times in 1,737 Posts
Thanked 38,858 Times in 18,317 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Adoption - Swiss living abroad

If he adopts, it's his child, and thus eligible for facilitated naturalization.

However, no need, it's automatic:

"Un minorenne straniero adottato da uno svizzero acquista la cittadinanza cantonale e comunale dell'adottante e, per questo fatto, la cittadinanza svizzera."

"A foreign minor adopted by a Swiss citizen receives the the cantonal and comunale citizenship of the adopter, and thus Swiss citizenship"

https://www.admin.ch/opc/it/classifi...208/index.html

Tom
Reply With Quote
The following 9 users would like to thank st2lemans for this useful post:
  #6  
Old 08.08.2017, 10:24
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 32
Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post
Thanked 11 Times in 7 Posts
HKCH has no particular reputation at present
Re: Adoption - Swiss living abroad

Thank you both forum legends - for the fast answer.

I think I found out by now that adoption takes place in your country of residence.

About the 10 years - if you adopt a child as your own son or daughter - shouldn't they default to your own citizenship?

And why would I not be able to adopt a child which is a family member? Of course it is not my son - yet - otherwise I wouldn't have to adopt?

As both Switzerland and Hong Kong (China) has signed the Hague convention, I would think that Switzerland would recognize adoption taken place in Hong Kong. Or am I wrong?

Now for my wife, that's a different question, she will have to go through the long process of naturalisation.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 08.08.2017, 10:43
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Adoption - Swiss living abroad

Kinship adoptions can come with their own set of rules (of which i cannot inform you, do such by the local authorities)

Switzerland will recognise an adoption done by the rules of the convention in a country that also is in the convention, so inform yourself well.

After adoption is it your kid and it has the same rights as any natural kids, so naturalisation should be no problem.

1: Ask the natural parents if they are willing to give up all rights.
2: If the parents agree, find a local lawyer to start up the proces of adoption.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #8  
Old 08.08.2017, 10:47
Longbyt's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: ZH
Posts: 8,106
Groaned at 57 Times in 53 Posts
Thanked 12,980 Times in 4,732 Posts
Longbyt has a reputation beyond reputeLongbyt has a reputation beyond reputeLongbyt has a reputation beyond reputeLongbyt has a reputation beyond reputeLongbyt has a reputation beyond reputeLongbyt has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Adoption - Swiss living abroad

This looks like being valid info on adoption laws in Hongkong.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Longbyt for this useful post:
  #9  
Old 08.08.2017, 11:05
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 31,914
Groaned at 2,389 Times in 1,737 Posts
Thanked 38,858 Times in 18,317 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Adoption - Swiss living abroad

Quote:
View Post
if you adopt a child as your own son or daughter - shouldn't they default to your own citizenship?
Yes, as per the link I quoted.

Tom
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank st2lemans for this useful post:
  #10  
Old 08.08.2017, 11:05
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 32
Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post
Thanked 11 Times in 7 Posts
HKCH has no particular reputation at present
Re: Adoption - Swiss living abroad

Quote:
View Post
This looks like being valid info on adoption laws in Hongkong.
I have now learned quite a bit more about adoption, and yes, it seems that adoption takes place at your country of residence - regardless of your citizenship.

Sorry for disturbing this forum about this question, yet I hope others can learn that one vital bit.

Hopefully, the process isn't too longwinded, and hopefully the Swiss Gemeinde (or consulate), will accept the Hong Kong process. Which they should, since they both signed the Hague convention.

And now it seems I can finally thank other users on the forum. Thank you, forum
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 08.08.2017, 11:23
Longbyt's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: ZH
Posts: 8,106
Groaned at 57 Times in 53 Posts
Thanked 12,980 Times in 4,732 Posts
Longbyt has a reputation beyond reputeLongbyt has a reputation beyond reputeLongbyt has a reputation beyond reputeLongbyt has a reputation beyond reputeLongbyt has a reputation beyond reputeLongbyt has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Adoption - Swiss living abroad

Quote:
View Post
a) Would the biological father and mother agree to an adoption? What are their rights under HK law?

c) If the father already has full custody why would a HK court change that? Presumably the custody order has been in place for some time so what grounds can you provide to have the order changed?
These are probably the things which need clearing up first.

Quote:
View Post
Sorry for disturbing this forum about this question, yet I hope others can learn that one vital bit.
Good luck and don't worry about you having asked for information on EF. We are asked questions which have a lot less to do with Switzerland than this.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Longbyt for this useful post:
  #12  
Old 08.08.2017, 12:56
Medea Fleecestealer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 22,318
Groaned at 411 Times in 319 Posts
Thanked 17,349 Times in 9,734 Posts
Medea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Adoption - Swiss living abroad

Quote:
View Post
Now for my wife, that's a different question, she will have to go through the long process of naturalisation.
Well, again depends. If you've been married for 6 years then she can apply for facilitated naturalisation at the Swiss embassy/consulate in HK.

"2. Article 28 Naturalization Act
The foreign spouse of a Swiss national who has close links with Switzerland and has lived in conjugal community with the Swiss spouse for at least six years. An application is also possible if the person concerned is resident abroad."

Again you need to check on the requirements with the embassy/consulate because I believe they're tightening up on these under the new naturalisation law. She would need to speak a Swiss language, which isn't the case under the current legislation iirc.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 08.08.2017, 13:01
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 31,914
Groaned at 2,389 Times in 1,737 Posts
Thanked 38,858 Times in 18,317 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Adoption - Swiss living abroad

Quote:
View Post
She would need to speak a Swiss language, which isn't the case under the current legislation iirc.
Not for facillitated.

Tom
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 08.08.2017, 13:07
Medea Fleecestealer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 22,318
Groaned at 411 Times in 319 Posts
Thanked 17,349 Times in 9,734 Posts
Medea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Adoption - Swiss living abroad

Quote:
View Post
Not for facillitated.

Tom
Not under the new law? I know they don't under the current one.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 08.08.2017, 13:17
Treverus's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Work in ZH, live in SZ
Posts: 12,115
Groaned at 344 Times in 278 Posts
Thanked 23,200 Times in 8,385 Posts
Treverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Adoption - Swiss living abroad

1. I would bet my money on the HK laws being easier than the Swiss one when it comes to adoptions.

2. Not getting the Swiss citizenship for a 15yr old boy for at least the next 10 years does not sound like a bad thing of the new law to me... he will get out of the military service for free!
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 08.08.2017, 13:59
Medea Fleecestealer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 22,318
Groaned at 411 Times in 319 Posts
Thanked 17,349 Times in 9,734 Posts
Medea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Adoption - Swiss living abroad

Well, from Longbyt's link it looks like it may be possible.

"1.The Court shall not make an adoption order authorizing a sole applicant to adopt an infant unless the applicant-

a.is the mother or father of the infant;
b.is a relative of the infant and is at least 21 years old;
c.is a person who is married to a parent of the infant; or
d.is at least 25 years old.

2.The Court shall not make an adoption order authorizing applicants who apply jointly as two spouses to adopt an infant unless–

a.one of the applicants is the mother or father of the infant; or
b.the condition set out in subsection (1)(b) or (d) is satisfied in the case of one of the applicants, and the other applicant is at least 21 years old."

Still, it may depend on the biological parents agreeing to the adoption.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 08.08.2017, 15:43
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 32
Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post
Thanked 11 Times in 7 Posts
HKCH has no particular reputation at present
Re: Adoption - Swiss living abroad

Thank you all for the feedback.
I didn't really think of Militärdienst. Me myself lived most of my life outside of Switzerland (!), always on the move, so I never shot a bullet. Soon I will be ready to permanently settle.

Nice to hear about my wife. We are coming up to 5 years, so by the time we plan to move it will be 6+ years for us (but then the new rules will be in force also). She is in no hurry for the passport as long as she can have residency initially and then after a few years, find a work. She is studying German but it is Hochdeutsch, then Swiss German must come later. We won't take the kids to international school but a normal public school (used to look at Basel but now the focus is on ZH-SG-TG or thereabouts)

But the main issue is for our nephew. Yes, the better way is through the HK system. In Hong Kong it's like most places - they look at what's best for the child. The biological mother is 100% for it, while we are not sure what the father thinks. There are a lot of emotions involved here, and even some other factors that I won't write about here but let me just say ... "something typical HK". Some box ticking issues for his dad.

Anyway, we will keep working on it. And thank you once again, dear community.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 08.08.2017, 15:48
Patsycat's Avatar
RIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Geneva
Posts: 2,246
Groaned at 50 Times in 35 Posts
Thanked 2,918 Times in 1,146 Posts
Patsycat has a reputation beyond reputePatsycat has a reputation beyond reputePatsycat has a reputation beyond reputePatsycat has a reputation beyond reputePatsycat has a reputation beyond reputePatsycat has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Adoption - Swiss living abroad

I do know of many couples who have done this in Thailand. The child is brought up by Auntie and Uncle and the adoption was very straight forward. I think they just need the accord of the biological parents, even if one of the adopters is a foreigner. The fact the the child regards them as his/her parents plays a big part. Why seperate a child from the only parents it has known, especially at 15. That would be cruel.

I know it is not the same country. But seems to be quite a common occurence.

Good luck!!
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Patsycat for this useful post:
  #19  
Old 08.08.2017, 15:53
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 32
Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post
Thanked 11 Times in 7 Posts
HKCH has no particular reputation at present
Re: Adoption - Swiss living abroad

Quote:
View Post
I do know of many couples who have done this in Thailand. The child is brought up by Auntie and Uncle and the adoption was very straight forward. I think they just need the accord of the biological parents, even if one of the adopters is a foreigner. The fact the the child regards them as his/her parents plays a big part. Why seperate a child from the only parents it has known, especially at 15. That would be cruel.

I know it is not the same country. But seems to be quite a common occurence.

Good luck!!
This is most likely the cause

- He is close family (nephew)
- He is already living with us, and fitting well in
- His biological parents are divorced, each with new families, and neither of them "has space for him" (mainly physical, everything is too small in HK)
- He recently lost his default "parent" (his maternal grandmother)
- We are plenty able to support him
- There are no health or psychological issues

I will keep you all posted of the outcome - if I forget, remind me some time in 2019
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank HKCH for this useful post:
  #20  
Old 08.08.2017, 16:07
Medea Fleecestealer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 22,318
Groaned at 411 Times in 319 Posts
Thanked 17,349 Times in 9,734 Posts
Medea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Adoption - Swiss living abroad

Bear in mind that he probably won't have to attend school here (depends on when you move), but will need to speak a Swiss language if he wants to work. And if he wants to go to university here then most Bachelors are taught in a Swiss language and not English.
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Living abroad but working for a Swiss Company Trillian Astra Finance/banking/taxation 8 03.10.2019 17:38
Best bank for Swiss living abroad lemoh Finance/banking/taxation 1 30.08.2016 08:24
RAV Benefits living in Swiss working abroad digitsclimb Employment 1 03.11.2015 08:06
Swiss Insurance when permanently living abroad? K.Meier Insurance 5 22.05.2015 07:13
Swiss living abroad GoldenPei Introductions 2 31.03.2015 22:42


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 17:36.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0