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Old 04.07.2008, 23:19
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Non EU citizen divorcing a swiss spouse on an overseas marriage basis!

Dear All,
It's been awhile since I've participated on this site! However, this thread as far as I know is special and Im sure it's never been discussed before!
Awhile ago I've been talking about some issues I have faced with my ex-swiss wife and my worries about getting into divorce and loosing my contact to my child....

This thread is actually a continuation of what we were discussing before!
Since then, my ex and I have managed to declare a court seperation which offered me all the rights as a father and my relation to my child! thanks god for that! at the moment the 02 years separation is on the way to end and therefore I am thinking of the bloody divorce, steps and consquences!
To get to the point, in 2003 my ex and I decided to get married and since I am a moroccan citizen, the swiss gvt have asked me to provide several docs which should be certified at the moroccan forign ministry in Morocco!
in order to escape all the hassle, we went together to Morocco and got married over there. then we declared our marriage to swiss authorities which gave me exacactly the same rights as if we got married in Switzerland! Now we are considered married in both countries!
Logically speaking, if we are finally divorced in Switzerland unfortunately our status will still remain married couple in Morocco since that country does not recogonise neither swiss marriage nor divorce! we will have to travel together to Morocco and get divorced in there as well! which is an issue since my ex refused to do that!

so there are few consequences here:

1) after the swiss divorce, my ex doesn't accept the fact that she will never be able to get married again without divorcing in Morocco! which is logic! if she does she will be facing the fact that she is married in here to 01 person and in morocco to another person (02 husbands at once). definitely against any low in the world (lucky me being moroccan its never an issue for me as a muslim to marry up to 04 women which is allowed by the moroccan low as well..lol)

2) after divorce both of us are allowed to get married to our new partners in Switzerland. I can get away with it but if I declare my marriage with my ex which will be still running ok in Morocco and also recoganised by the swiss authorities, Im sure the situation will be discussed on CNN and all the news channels in the world!

I guess this topic is mega huge and more hidden issues will come up day after day!

Please let me know what you think or if you have any comments on the above!
cheers all

Aziz
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Old 05.07.2008, 12:20
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Re: Non EU citizen divorcing a swiss spouse on an overseas marriage basis!

Can't you just go to the Moroccan Embassy in Switzerland and get divorced there?
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Old 06.07.2008, 12:35
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Re: Non EU citizen divorcing a swiss spouse on an overseas marriage basis!

Hmmm! that simplest solution for any other nationals, but unfortunately the low in Morocco is very strict andf silly especially when it comesforeigners involvement! to get married to a foreigner in an Arab Kingdom, you will have to go through a police report, courts including the court of appeals and the legislative court, then get all docs signed from both parts in each office! in the end in order for the marriage certificate to be recogonised in the EU and switzerland it has to be stamped at the ministry of foreign affairs in Morocco.... quite complicated steps!
therfore the divorce will have to go through all the previousily mentioned offices in which I will need my ex presence and signatures again!
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Old 06.07.2008, 14:21
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Re: Non EU citizen divorcing a swiss spouse on an overseas marriage basis!

Presumably your 'ex-Swiss wife' (by which assume your Swiss ex-wife, although you are still married) would be quite happy never to visit Morocco again in her life. So, she doesn't care that she is still married to you under your law and will be happy to marry someone else on day in Switzerland, quite legally.

However, you may have the problem that if you ever what to marry again in your home country - despite being allowed up to 3 more wives...
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Old 07.07.2008, 09:00
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Re: Non EU citizen divorcing a swiss spouse on an overseas marriage basis!

My dear, yes we are still married but seperated. she's already leaving with another man at the moment and got a child together with him... she's pushing badly for divorce in order to get to marry her new man who's also a foreigner in CH and living temporary in here!

On the other hand and as per her visit to Morocco! she's so much in love with that country and she's been there 3 time after our seperation! but she will never go with me to divorce!
I do understand what you're saying: she can divorce in CH legally and she will be able to marry again which is logic as it sounds as per the swiss law!
The catch is Moroccan marriage and law are recoganized in Switzerland as I have mentioned before! if we are still married in Morocco she will still face the consequences once I inform the swiss authorities!

the whole senario is not good for neither of us! Once we divorce here we are both allowed to get married to different partners as per the swiss law! but at the same time we are still legally married in Morocco as per the International law since the marriage is registred at the ministery of forign affairs and recoganised by the EU and CH!

but point in writing the whole story waqs actually to get looked at the situation and if someone knows about overseas marriages and divorces will be more than welcome to advise!
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Old 07.07.2008, 09:47
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Re: Non EU citizen divorcing a swiss spouse on an overseas marriage basis!

She doesn't have to go with you. She can ask someone to represent her via "power of attorney". Please pass this information on to your future X wife.

http://www.moroccanconsulate.com/divorce.cfm
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Old 07.07.2008, 22:02
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Re: Non EU citizen divorcing a swiss spouse on an overseas marriage basis!

I hope the legal business works out with the moroccan authorities.
I've been divorced here and here are some things I know.


Dont worry about losing your rights to see your children.
Youll be granted that by the swiss authorities.
Compromised but given.

There are certain factors which could cause the authorities to restrict parental rights and visitation but are generally extreme measures, ie. chronic alcoholism, someone who is demonstrably violent or incapable of providing a healthy environment for the kids during visitation.

Visitation at the very minimum, and even joint custody, if you both continue to live in the same area can be expected and asked for.

When your separation becomes divorce , spousal support is usually off the table, and you're normally only liable for child support.
There are extenuating circumstances which could lead to a judge asking for continued spousal support. Such as if it is deemed that the ex wife has been not working for so long and is so far from being fit to go back to the work place or something along those lines.

An amicable and cooperative relationship with your ex (believe it or not it can and does develop over time ) ,
keeping the kids stability security education, opportunities and happiness in mind is the best thing that can possibly be achieved.

The Courts here , although it may seem that their only aim is to castrate the unfortunate male, when pushed to make a decision independently because a couple cant agree, will take basic measures to try to ensure the well being of the children by seeing to it that the father contributes financially and has the right to see the children, and generally , award the child to the mother as primary custodian.

The situation can be completely different and far far healthier for all concerned if the parents can manage to come to an agreement as to the disposition of things and the courts will generally honor and ratify the mutually agreed proposals of cooperative couples.

As far as having multiple wives as a muslim, dont forget the multiple mother in laws

And as far as divorce in morocco, Isnt it simply a question of 'Talaak Talaak Talaak' and its all over?

You appear to be a reasonable person from some of the things you wrote and I hope your ex is equally reasonable . Do whats best for the kids at the end of the day and the swiss courts will generally agree if its based on mutual agreement of the divorcees.

Im sorry you're having to go through this, divorce all ways breaks my heart for the little ones in the beginning.
But things have a way of working out.

Inshallah it all turns out as well as it possibly can .

Keep your eye on the future. think of 5 years , 8 years from now. Things have a way of working out.

Despite the 'compromised' (perhaps compromised is the wrong word cause being a divorced parent is almost the natural states if you believe the statistics.), nature of being divorced parents, Look to do the best to keep the kids happy healthy and that they learn the best things from each of you and your families.

You cant go wrong that way.
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Old 08.07.2008, 10:16
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Re: Non EU citizen divorcing a swiss spouse on an overseas marriage basis!

miniMia, thanks for the link...believe it or not, rules are not the same in all moroccan embassies abroad! I wish the same was in the Moroccan embassy in Bern but the US one is unbelievably helpful for some reason!
everytime I call Bern the only thing they tell me is I have to go and get things done in Morocco myself! even when it comes to some document to be issued in a minute!!! any way... its a looooooong story with those falks which may probably opens a new topic!

However, I would like to thank 3daystubble for the beautiful statements!
It was actually a great step for me to go through court seperation as I didn't have a clue about the swiss law when it comes to these matters nor my own right as a foreign spouse in here! people say different things, some positive and some negative, but you won't get the truth until you put the cards on the table!
Luckily I have learned alot during this seperation and many new things came up by the time. when I signed the seperation at court. I left happy with a huge smile! I thought I received all my rights and even more than what I expected... Its amazing to notice lately that I could get more rights and avoid all my ex harms as well as closing all the little gaps left!
Right now I hired a lawyer who found out a lot of thing were going wrong! simple exemple is that I am paying Sfr 1000.- a month to my ex for child support while I should be paying only half of it!(sorry it sound huge ammount but it is just covering 50% of the Nursery cost).
At the moment my lawyer and I are working on changing the seperation contract to a better one...something I would never be able to do if I was divorced!... this way I guess the divorce will go just right!

Ah by the way... the divorce in a way to go...Talak, talak, talak is a very classic way! religion wise speaking means its over! but we are living on a different world now and every thing should be documented! even in Morocco the rules for divorced have changed and became the same as in Europe. a man used to be able to divorce his moroccan wife without her knowlege until she receives her divorce certificate by post! right now both spouses have to sign and accept the divorce and the law became on the wife's side to share all her husband assets no matter what...
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Old 08.07.2008, 11:46
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Re: Non EU citizen divorcing a swiss spouse on an overseas marriage basis!

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miniMia, thanks for the link...believe it or not, rules are not the same in all moroccan embassies abroad! I wish the same was in the Moroccan embassy in Bern but the US one is unbelievably helpful for some reason!
everytime I call Bern the only thing they tell me is I have to go and get things done in Morocco myself! even when it comes to some document to be issued in a minute!!! any way... its a looooooong story with those falks which may probably opens a new topic!
The point is not really which embassy / consulate is quoted. I just quoted the American site as it's in English. The point is the process is most likely the same.

Becuase you are not divorced yet, it is probably not clear to the consulate what you are looking for. You must be clear with the consulate that you are looking to have your Swiss divorce recognized in Morocco and not that you are trying to divorce in Morocco. You do not have to go to Morocco in person to have a foreign divorce recognized in Morocco. You can have a lawyer represent you and/or your soon to be x-wife via power of attorney.
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Old 08.07.2008, 12:36
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Re: Non EU citizen divorcing a swiss spouse on an overseas marriage basis!

I completely understand you miniMia... what you're saying is 100% logic!
I have already asked the Moroccan embassy about the process and the first thing they asked me was: where did you get married! Switzerland or Morocco?... I said Morocco and they automatically said you will both have to go back to Morocco and get divorced there! otherwise the marriage status will remain the same in Morocco even if you divorce in Switzerland as Moroccan authorities do not recogonose the swiss divorce based on a moroccan marriage... if you had married in here things cld be different and you do not have to go back if the marriage is not registered in Morocco! but if it is registered a person under Alwakala (power of attorney), could represent you there and take care of the process!
the above were exactly the person at the Embassy's words!

My conclusions are based on Moroccan citizens divorced to their ex swiss wives and the steps they've gone through! some how they found their own ways to get their women to Morocco which will never work with my own one! some had even have to pay their wives money to come with them which I found silly and at the same time a great solution if it cld help! it just depends on who your partner is, if you know what I mean!!

On the other hand I believe on action... like you said we are not divorced yet and once I have the divorce certificate in hand, take it to the Moroccan embassy or Moroccan authorities, may be I will hear different statements and a new actions will take place!
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Old 08.07.2008, 13:08
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Re: Non EU citizen divorcing a swiss spouse on an overseas marriage basis!

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I completely understand you miniMia... what you're saying is 100% logic!
I have already asked the Moroccan embassy about the process and the first thing they asked me was: where did you get married! Switzerland or Morocco?... I said Morocco and they automatically said you will both have to go back to Morocco and get divorced there! otherwise the marriage status will remain the same in Morocco even if you divorce in Switzerland as Moroccan authorities do not recogonose the swiss divorce based on a moroccan marriage...

Of course they want you to go back, they represent the Moroccan governemnt and they want things done the Moroccan way. That doesn't mean you have to do it this way.

Morocco with not _automatically_ recognize a Swiss divorce. You still need to go through the courts, but they will eventually recognize it.

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but if it is registered a person under Alwakala (power of attorney), could represent you there and take care of the process!
the above were exactly the person at the Embassy's words!
That's what I said. You and your soon-to-be-x-wife don't have to go there. You get someone to represent you there via a lawyer (usually) that you give power of attorney too. This power of attorney can be done at the consulate.

Anyway, the point is get divorced here, then see what you do about it over there. And if your wife doesn't want to do this process at all then that is her problem. It has nothing to do with you as you can marry (and divorce) more women if you want.
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