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  #21  
Old 07.12.2017, 20:04
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Re: leaving Switzerland in the middle of separation / divorce / alimony procedures

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Divorces are saddening things. Most particularly when one, or both sides try to "win" them.
People don't realize who the sides really are: it is the lawyers against the rest of us and the lawyers are always winning.
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  #22  
Old 07.12.2017, 20:06
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Re: leaving Switzerland in the middle of separation / divorce / alimony procedures

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....
She works part time and just as I anticipate she is going to marry again, I suspect she might work more after locking in an alimony arrangement that is to her benefit.
When she marries again, you will no longer have to pay for her. You will for the children though.
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  #23  
Old 07.12.2017, 20:19
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Re: leaving Switzerland in the middle of separation / divorce / alimony procedures

My understanding is that you don't actually have to pay her alimony if she's working - the law changed in 2014. You do have to pay child support if they live primarily with her.

When the youngest is 10, she is obliged to work 50%, when 16 mum works 100%, so you don't pay alimony. When the youngest has finished her apprenticeship (around about 18) you don't pay child support anymore.

I don't see you mentioning the age of your kids - if you are talking about working in England or Geneva or Dubai, you must be pretty marketable, therefore it would be a shame if your kids are borderline poor.

From memory, being borderline-poor as a single parent with 1 kid is 4,000 per month. There was an article in the Migros magazine recently. There wasn't a mention of 2 kids, let alone 3.

But mate, for the sake of your kids, don't move so far away that you don't see them. Kids need their dad. And not a dad substitute. Make sure you give her a break from looking after them every so often, for the sake of your kids. It will be bloody hard for her having them 24/7 without a few weekends off now and then.

And if you pluck off now, one day when you're 60 and no longer quite as attractive and marketable, and they're in their 20's and you need them, they won't know you.
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  #24  
Old 07.12.2017, 20:24
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Re: leaving Switzerland in the middle of separation / divorce / alimony procedures

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But mate, for the sake of your kids, don't move so far away that you don't see them.
I know other people who are working 6 or 7 days a week to pay alimony and consequently they never see their kids either. There is no guarantee that the wife will stay in Switzerland after getting an alimony order either.
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  #25  
Old 07.12.2017, 20:27
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Re: leaving Switzerland in the middle of separation / divorce / alimony procedures

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....I anticipate she is going to marry again,
I doubt it.

Not many Swiss men take on a woman with spawn. And they very seldom marry nowadays. These men are also are financially wise.

The courts anyway account for this and add a clause in the contract.


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I suspect she might work more after locking in an alimony arrangement that is to her benefit.
It doesn't work like that here.

She is probably spending most afternoons discussing homework with your kids, and worrying about their future as they are statistically less likely to succeed with a single parent. Even the schools will run a skeptical eye over them when it comes to deciding which secondary school they go in to, as "social environment" is also a factor.
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  #26  
Old 07.12.2017, 20:29
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Re: leaving Switzerland in the middle of separation / divorce / alimony procedures

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I know other people who are working 6 or 7 days a week to pay alimony and consequently they never see their kids either. There is no guarantee that the wife will stay in Switzerland after getting an alimony order either.
Great.

But this is the future of Your Kids.

Not some random stranger. Pluck what the others do, and make sure you're there for your little people.

There are no guarantees.
But i do think that she will need to ask your permission before moving the kids abroad.
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  #27  
Old 07.12.2017, 20:36
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Re: leaving Switzerland in the middle of separation / divorce / alimony procedures

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I know other people who are working 6 or 7 days a week to pay alimony and consequently they never see their kids either. There is no guarantee that the wife will stay in Switzerland after getting an alimony order either.
Given that joint custody of children is the rule here, it would be pretty difficult for her to do so and take them with her.
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  #28  
Old 07.12.2017, 20:39
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Re: leaving Switzerland in the middle of separation / divorce / alimony procedures

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But this is the future of Your Kids.
I feel it is more about the future of my ex's lawyer: the longer it goes on, the more fees she gets. She puts my ex on a roller-coaster with unreasonable alimony expectations and this has made it impossible for us to communicate about other topics like the children. We were actually communicating directly before the first meeting with the judge and the lawyers.
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  #29  
Old 07.12.2017, 20:43
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Re: leaving Switzerland in the middle of separation / divorce / alimony procedures

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I feel it is more about the future of my ex's lawyer: the longer it goes on, the more fees she gets. She puts my ex on a roller-coaster with unreasonable alimony expectations and this has made it impossible for us to communicate about other topics like the children. We were actually communicating directly before the first meeting with the judge and the lawyers.
Have you thought about mediation?

Tell her you both can get a better deal ... this does not excuse your obligations and or the rule of law but saves a lot of suffering, especially for your children ...

It is worth a try ..never give up trying ... to be good even if others are bad to you ..
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  #30  
Old 07.12.2017, 20:58
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Re: leaving Switzerland in the middle of separation / divorce / alimony procedures

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Have you thought about mediation?
I had heard that already. Naturally, it wasn't ever suggested by my own lawyer, despite all the fees I pay him. My ex's lawyer has "warned" her not to do that: apparently it is not in her best financial interests but maybe it is not in the financial interests of the lawyer either.
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  #31  
Old 07.12.2017, 21:06
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Re: leaving Switzerland in the middle of separation / divorce / alimony procedures

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I had heard that already. Naturally, it wasn't ever suggested by my own lawyer, despite all the fees I pay him. My ex's lawyer has "warned" her not to do that: apparently it is not in her best financial interests but maybe it is not in the financial interests of the lawyer either.
Is she getting her legal fees paid for by the state? (even if she is she has to repay them within 10 years if she has the money)

Appeal to her, ask her does she want better for the children, tell her you can have a meeting with a mediator but retain her lawyer, just have a meeting. A good mediator will make sense to both sides. If she agrees, you can ditch the lawyers and move forward.

If you are both open and honest it is the best route for all of you and especially the children.

Last edited by magic; 07.12.2017 at 21:08. Reason: typo
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  #32  
Old 07.12.2017, 21:11
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Re: leaving Switzerland in the middle of separation / divorce / alimony procedures

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I had heard that already. Naturally, it wasn't ever suggested by my own lawyer, despite all the fees I pay him. My ex's lawyer has "warned" her not to do that: apparently it is not in her best financial interests but maybe it is not in the financial interests of the lawyer either.
Why is the divorce so bitter in the first place? How long were you married?
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  #33  
Old 07.12.2017, 21:32
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Re: leaving Switzerland in the middle of separation / divorce / alimony procedures

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Why is the divorce so bitter in the first place?
She never came to terms with the way my salary changes when I switch jobs (like most people in my profession) and the lawyer told her she has to lock-in her rights while I had a good contract.

And she isn't paying anything now for her lawyer, she got this lawyer as a "gift" from the canton, so she thinks she can just carry on until I agree to her demands. I even offered to pay for the mediator but she won't go anywhere without the lawyer.

Not surprisingly, this was the sort of demanding behavior that contributed to the relationship breaking down much earlier but with lawyers it is worse. When we originally separated we didn't rush to legally separate or divorce for the sake of the kids but not so long ago she fell under the influence of a lawyer and it all went downhill.
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  #34  
Old 07.12.2017, 21:46
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Re: leaving Switzerland in the middle of separation / divorce / alimony procedures

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Great.

But i do think that she will need to ask your permission before moving the kids abroad.
Not if she is the only caretaker and the father does not live in the country anymore.
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  #35  
Old 07.12.2017, 21:54
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Re: leaving Switzerland in the middle of separation / divorce / alimony procedures

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Not many Swiss men take on a woman with spawn.
I married two of them (though I wasn't Swiss the first time around).

Tom
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  #36  
Old 07.12.2017, 22:00
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Re: leaving Switzerland in the middle of separation / divorce / alimony procedures

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"need" has a clear meaning. Maslow's hierarchy of needs elaborates on it, nothing there about iphones.
Maslow's thing is just a theory, and a contested one at that. It's trotted out for various academic courses, that's about it. Although I'd say "toys" would fit in all the stripes.

And kids need toys. And books. And... I hope that Richdog is right and you actually do want them to have these things but would rather provide them directly. But if I've learned anything about kids, it's what they need that matters, and I mean need, not want,
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  #37  
Old 07.12.2017, 22:08
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Re: leaving Switzerland in the middle of separation / divorce / alimony procedures

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I married two of them (though I wasn't Swiss the first time around).

Tom

I must say that those men are few and far between,


Tom.
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  #38  
Old 07.12.2017, 22:17
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Re: leaving Switzerland in the middle of separation / divorce / alimony procedures

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My ex is not an alcoholic or anything fortunately and I know she looks after the kids but it is basic human psychology, if you give people more money than they actually need, they find ways to justify spending it.
Here is a novel idea, apply the same logic to yourself and only keep what you actually need to survive and see how that works out for you.
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  #39  
Old 08.12.2017, 09:27
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Re: leaving Switzerland in the middle of separation / divorce / alimony procedures

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She never came to terms with the way my salary changes when I switch jobs (like most people in my profession) and the lawyer told her she has to lock-in her rights while I had a good contract.

And she isn't paying anything now for her lawyer, she got this lawyer as a "gift" from the canton, so she thinks she can just carry on until I agree to her demands. I even offered to pay for the mediator but she won't go anywhere without the lawyer.

Not surprisingly, this was the sort of demanding behavior that contributed to the relationship breaking down much earlier but with lawyers it is worse. When we originally separated we didn't rush to legally separate or divorce for the sake of the kids but not so long ago she fell under the influence of a lawyer and it all went downhill.
First off; deep breath and I know it seems scary at times but you have some positives in your favor; you should think about those rather than all the negatives.

You state that your ex: looks after the children well, so to me that is a real positive to start with.

You have time on your side, the courts are jam-packed and it is a slow process, you will most probably changed jobs by the next hearing, just supply the details to the judge. Check all financial details carefully and do not rely on your lawyer; check any calculations the judge makes too.

Write a list of questions and concerns and email them to your lawyer before your next meeting and get answers you are happy with. Consider changing lawyer if you are not happy with your current one.

If it is urgent and your lawyer is not responding adequately you can write directly to the judge, the judge will read it.

Never stop trying to reach an amicable agreement. You need to try for the sake of sparing your children because ultimately they are the ones that pay the real price.

An unhappy mother or father impacts the children; however much you try to hide it from them. Maybe this is a way to appeal to your ex: that in the interests of the children.

The premise in Switzerland is to put the interests of the children first and what is best for them, if you start with that then you have a much better chance in my opinion.
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Old 08.12.2017, 10:13
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Re: leaving Switzerland in the middle of separation / divorce / alimony procedures

OP, what are your intentions WRT parental custody? Do you expect/want your ex to have sole custody and take all decisions?

Just FYI, as you seem to not want to go in that direction, and I'm not even sure if this applies to marriages concluded before this change's effectiveness:
The current law, effective since 2014, says shared custody is the default (though it requres a declaration by both ex-spouses to that end). However, shared custody may mean you are forbidden from moving abroad without your ex's consent (this is reciprocal). Lacking such a declaration the wife will usually get sole custody.
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