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  #41  
Old 08.12.2017, 10:19
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Re: leaving Switzerland in the middle of separation / divorce / alimony procedures

As others have said, you do realise that children are split 50/50 under the new law. So if you take them half the time and everything else being equal there wouldn't be any monetary exchange. If she works part time and you full time, there may be some adjustment but it certainly wouldn't amount to full alimony and child support.

It sounds like you are ready to sign away your kids to your ex, but I would greatly suggest some reconsideration of this, mostly in the interest of the children. If you move to London how often would you see them. Would you be a part of their daily/weekly lives.

Not sure of your intentions, but I would hope you would continue to see your children on a regular basis and possibly have them 50% of the time. This is greatly facilitated by the Geneva option, only a train ride a few hours away. She wouldn't be able to take them outside the country without your permission if you share custody.
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  #42  
Old 10.12.2017, 15:36
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Re: leaving Switzerland in the middle of separation / divorce / alimony procedures

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As others have said, you do realise that children are split 50/50 under the new law. So if you take them half the time and everything else being equal there wouldn't be any monetary exchange.
Only if her income matches his. The new law was about custody not child support.

I'm now out the other end of all this as my son is past 18 (although I'm still liable directly to him to provide 'assistance'). All I can say is the system sucks when there's a big gap in incomes, but it sucks a bit less in CH than elsewhere.

Also.. I can't imagine anyone under the age of 30 ever getting married where there is a big salary gap.. the risks are just too big (but.. of course.. lots will, believing in love).. and the knock on consequences for population profiles will be notable (as they are already)
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  #43  
Old 15.12.2017, 00:13
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Re: leaving Switzerland in the middle of separation / divorce / alimony procedures

I am a female. I've been through a divorce (from my Swiss husband). For the first 9 years of our son's life he was the main breadwinner. He was then made redundant. When our son was 10 I become the main breadwinner and he stayed at home to study. We separated 2 years after that. I found an apartment 3 blocks away. We did everything without lawyers. First had a 3 year separation, then got divorced 2 years ago. 50/50 custody. I paid alimony and child support. I agreed to a deal which was a little steep financially I admit, but I'd rather that and pay over than have ill feeling and a son suffering. I know the feeling of having to work a 6 day week to pay alimony, I did it for 4 years. At the peak I was paying 55% of my net income. Now our son is over 16 my payments are less so I could cut back on extra work. The way to work out payments is not random. They take the joint income of both people (and if only 1 is working then that's the income). They then use the 'basic living standards' calculator to work out exactly how much someone needs to 'live'. By 'live' this means. Pay rent, pay bills, have a little something (not a lot) for extras (like 200chf a month). It can be worked out quite exactly actually. Tennis clubs, gym membership and things like that are not considered basics! Once the basic living expenses for all parties are calculated then they look to see if the joint income can cover those expenses. And then calculate based on that.

I pay a decreasing rate of alimony to my ex until 2019. And child support of around 1'500 a month until our son finishes education. My ex is back in employment now.

Sure it has sometimes been hard, but when I calculate what I would have had to pay on lawyers I feel a little better. I know people whose savings have been wiped out in legal fees.

I'm going round to the ex's for a Xmas drink on Saturday. No hard feelings, in the end it's got to be about the child (or children) first and foremost.
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  #44  
Old 18.12.2017, 21:16
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Re: leaving Switzerland in the middle of separation / divorce / alimony procedures

There are two sides to every story...

My little brother is a school teacher. His wife didn't have any children and became bored with him after 2 years of marriage. She took him to court, he had to miss work which is a real shame for the schoolkids, she got 850 francs per month from the judge. She spent it on clothes and beauty products and within 3 months we found out she was dating an insurance executive, 12 months later we discovered she had become pregnant, not remarried though and she was still taking the alimony from her first victim, my brother.

Are you saying my brother is really anything remotely like a criminal if he stopped giving money to this tramp?

It wouldn't surprise me if some of the ex's mentioned in this forum recently are similar to my brother's ex, but the posters are still in in love with those women and can't bring themself to say anything really firm against them.

I'm a woman, a mother and a feminist and I really believe that laws are important to protect women but there is also an ugly side to this that people in these threads appear to be blind to. The judges and lawyers are like robots, they are stupid and blinded to what is really going on out there. Every man, including my brother, is treated like he is guilty until proven innocent, is that justice?

Since this scammer got my brother, it has become really clear to me that no woman under 50 without children should be claiming money from her ex and even if she is over 50 she should only be claiming money if she never worked and spent all her time cleaning a mansion.

Some people are trying to scare these poor men with some remote possibility they will go to jail but if, as so many people have said, the money is peanuts then it doesn't sound like they are on a brilliant incomes, they won't be getting a brilliant income abroad either and they will never be able to prosecute them if they can't show they had the "means to pay", which is written clearly in that snippet of the law somebody quoted.

Reality check: you all know some of these women meet another guy, get pregnant and attach themself to the Sozialamt money until the child finishes school. You are all just a little bit resentful that women like this probably never really work on making a traditional family or a job and more than a little bit pissed off that you are going to have to pay for it through your taxes while the ex-husband is building a life with somebody better and sunning himself on the beach in Florida or wherever else he jets off to.

The type of person who really runs away from legitimate debts wouldn't spend their time in a forum like this asking for help.

It is also very ironic that so many people try make their argument with fear: the same tactics preachers have used for centuries to make women feel we can't leave our husband or we will face fire and brimstone in the afterlife. When people stoop to fear tactics like this it is obvious they don't have any real arguments to prove their point.
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  #45  
Old 18.12.2017, 21:18
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Re: leaving Switzerland in the middle of separation / divorce / alimony procedures

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There are two sides to every story...
As you said yourself....!
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  #46  
Old 18.12.2017, 21:29
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Re: leaving Switzerland in the middle of separation / divorce / alimony procedures

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The last thing any kids need is a father who becomes burnt out or bankrupt paying to support an ex living in luxury.
This happens more often than not in my experience. I hope the Swiss court/attorneys think logically and arrive at a reasonable settlement.
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  #47  
Old 18.12.2017, 21:33
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Re: leaving Switzerland in the middle of separation / divorce / alimony procedures

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I'm a woman, a mother and a feminist and I really believe that laws are important to protect women but there is also an ugly side to this that people in these threads appear to be blind to. The judges and lawyers are like robots, they are stupid and blinded to what is really going on out there. Every man, including my brother, is treated like he is guilty until proven innocent, is that justice?
Bravo.
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  #48  
Old 25.02.2019, 02:48
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Re: leaving Switzerland in the middle of separation / divorce / alimony procedures

I have thought long about posting a reply to this emotive thread. Iíve now plucked up the courage so let me share my experience.

I separated in late 2015 and was divorced in early 2016. I have one daughter now aged 14.

Everything was settled with a generous divorce convention (32% of my net salary, plus LPP, property and cash) in favour of my ex wife and daughter or so I thought. For various reasons, which benefit the child, not me, and by mutual consent, my ex has sole custody of our child although we agreed joint Parental Authority and visiting rights for me for at least 50% of the time. I also agreed continued private education for our child in the UK, at my cost. Our daughter is a perfectly healthy, normal child. My ex works and has a good salary. I also had a good job and good salary.

All was well until my ex refused to abide by and implement our divorce convention, which is still the case. Meanwhile, I have honored all of my obligations.

In light of a rapidly deteriorating situation and relationship with my ex, I hired a lawyer to represent me. In July 2016 after our child came to stay with me, my ex made a complaint to the Authorities of child neglect with a suggestion of child abuse. From there, matters have steadily gone from bad to worse.

With the threat of potential criminal proceedings and with the potential risk of further complaints of neglect and abuse, was advised by my lawyer to surrender my Parental Authority and Visitation rights at the hearing and to have very limited contact with my child as it could lead to criminal proceedings against me especially as my ex was using everything I communicated to the child as a tool to manipulate me. I did. It is the hardest thing I have ever done in my life and I have not seen my child since July 2016. The only contact I have had is an occasional card by post both ways. It has broken my heart.

Since the Summer of 2016, Iíve been summonsed to appear in front of the courts by my ex at least a dozen times (Justice de la Paix, Tribunal díArrondissement and Tribunal Cantonal). During this period, my ex has stolen my post and used the documents that she has stolen in papers submitted to the Courts (for which she has been prosecuted), she has emptied funds (and subsequently replenished funds) from a bank account over which she had procuration for the school fees of our daughter. She has also stolen 50,000 francs due to me under the terms of the divorce convention which took 2 years to be enforced in my favour and which has led to a portion of her salary being seized by the debt office.

Meanwhile my ex has removed our daughter from school in the UK and placed her in a private school in Switzerland. Of course, I have no say in this, view earlier proceedings. But as legal matters have dragged on, the courts have indeed protected the interests of the child and I have been ordered by the courts to pay for our daughters private education. The increased amounts involved in comparison to private education in the UK are staggering. All in all, base payments for my ex and for my daughter accounted (please note past tense) for 43% of my net salary and include me paying for all of our daughters healthcare. Without my bonus, which was modest and which was by no means guaranteed, my monthly outgoings meant that I was left with less than 800 francs per month with which to live. The amount ordered by the Courts is, simply put, impossible to fund.

As matters have dragged on, the stress of working in a high pressure environment, traveling extensively, trying to balance my professional objectives and meanwhile fund all my obligations coupled with the stress of all this going on in my private life has made me ill. In 2017 and 2018 I was off work for some 7 months in total.

In November 2018 I was made redundant by mutual consent. Court cases continue and I am still paying my obligations. My ex is still pressing the Courts for further increased financial contributions for both her and our daughter. The Judge has so far been sympathetic to her cause and judging by his comments clearly views me as the villain of the whole sorry affair. My ex is not prepared to negotiate, mediate, or come to any agreement.

I now, aged in my mid 50ís, have no daughter, no job, no income, no lawyer, am of no fixed abode and cannot afford to live in Switzerland. I have little money left with which to continue, yet still pay my obligations although it cannot continue for much longer. And it will not end there. This is only the end of Phase 1. More is to come, until there is nothing left and I am completely destroyed.

This is a tale of forewarning to all who tread this dangerous path. Firstly, getting married is for sure reckless view the potential consequences such as mine. Secondly, hell really does have no fury like a woman scorned. Lawyers will take substantial sums of money from you for nothing in return. The Courts will have no sympathy with you especially when there are children involved. You will be stripped of all your money and whatever you cannot pay will still be enforced. It is a helpless situation.

I cannot offer words of wisdom, only offer a cautionary tale of woe. For those in this situation, you must do what is right for you. But beware, as like me, you could end up in a helpless abyss.

Thanks for reading and take care out there. This can be a cruel road.
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  #49  
Old 25.02.2019, 22:14
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Re: leaving Switzerland in the middle of separation / divorce / alimony procedures

Sounds really shite, man because your ex totally has it out for you.

At least the payments will be over in 4 years...

If you kill her, you'll still be in jail.

So, hang in there and go get an attack dog for a lawyer.
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Old 26.02.2019, 05:37
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Re: leaving Switzerland in the middle of separation / divorce / alimony procedures

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Sounds really shite, man because your ex totally has it out for you.

At least the payments will be over in 4 years...

If you kill her, you'll still be in jail.

So, hang in there and go get an attack dog for a lawyer.
I thank you for your advice and understanding US Alien. Your input is much appreciated (and for those embarking on reading this mammoth reply, I apologise in advance).

I do know that I am far from alone being in this situation. And it would not end in 4 years, it is just that in 4 years Chapter 1 will be over and that will bring up my 61st year on this planet. Next, beyond my 61 years and up to my retirement will come Chapter 2, more demands, court cases and court orders for education and support for our daughter beyond the age of 18. And in the interests of the child, the court will impose it and order it. Thatís the law.

With that in mind, I will turn my reply more in line with the title of the thread. Faced with (or potentially faced with) such a situation similar to mine, Iíve concluded that there are but 2 options:

Option 1, you stay in Switzerland.
Live on the basic minimum of 1200 CHF disposable income per month or less, continue to pay lawyers and be prepared to be frequently in front of the courts. This is not only a costly exercise but it is also a very stressful ordeal, one without any ending in sight. With every change will come a Court hearing where you will be ordered to be present in person and most certainly you will not come out smelling of roses. That is your future.
There is then the question of your exís costs. On top of any judgement, the court will order (eventually) that you pay the majority of your exís legal costs on top of your own legal financial burden. As this has yet to be done in my case I cannot fairly say what the financial impact of this could be, only that I anticipate it to be in excess of 50,000 CHF and how I pay any order of costs made against me remains to be seen.
I am very likely to arrive at retirement age with nothing. I will have paid for a privileged lifestyle (as opposed to a very good lifestyle) for my ex and daughter. In the words of The Weakest Link, ďYou, leave with nothing.Ē.
I donít think anyone can conclude that option 1 is appealing, even less that it is something you would be able to mentally and financially endure.

Option 2, leave Switzerland. Letís say that you maintain your obligations as long as you can. The Courts will of course still make judgements against you ďin absentiaĒ, but how it could be enforced is another matter. Iíve no idea about that, one way or the other.
Under option 1 you have lost everything except your liberty anyway. You might also lose that eventually with option 2 although I imagine that they have to find you and catch you first, before extraditing you. I also suspect that extradition is a costly and lengthy process. And if you have no income, little money and no job, what on earth will they do with you once you have been forcibly returned to Switzerland - what more can the Courts take from you financially? They can deprive you of your liberty for some time, say 3 years, and you will serve probably 2 of those years, after which you become a burden on the Swiss state. Following that would the Courts deprive you of your liberty for some more time on the basis that you cannot pay? And after that you become a burden on the Swiss state, with no means to support yourself and nowhere to live?
Option 2 is equally unappealing, becoming a fugitive from the Swiss state in some despot country that you cannot leave for fear of being arrested and deported to Switzerland upon entry to another country. But which option is worse - option 2 with a bit of jail time, with it being over and done with in 2-3 years, or the long drawn out ďdeath by a thousand cutsĒ of option 1?

Neither hold an attractive future in store. But for sure, it is one or the other. In my view neither is right and neither is appealing. But I understand why some may simply say ďforget this for a game of soldiers, Iím outta here....Ē and actually take that route. Iím not saying that itís right or wrong here, only that I understand it........

Finally, I have 2 other points of view that Iíd like to share before putting this post to bed....

Firstly, in my most personal humble opinion I will suggest (note suggest, not accuse) that the legal profession in Switzerland functions in many cases through collusion whether that be Lawyer:Lawyer or Lawyer:Courts. Iíll leave that there, only to add my perhaps harsh conclusion that the only apparent difference between the Swiss legal system and a Mafia extortion racket is that the latter is illegal and employs the use of firearms and violence to get their way. The Swiss legal system still take your money, only their ultimate deterrent isnít to kill you like the Mafia, only put you in Prison. In all other ways they are identical, right up to Judges being ďThe Head of the FamilyĒ. Look at it objectively and you may get my point.

Secondly, that the law is indeed an ass. My ex is legally able to offset many thousands of CHF of supposedly essential and urgent dental work against repayment of a legally binding debt, on the basis that she has sole custody of our daughter and she has to be fit and well as the sole parent with responsibility for the child. Meanwhile, I have a buccal condition that has needed urgent gum and dental treatment for over 2 years, treatment that I cannot afford. This is my problem as the Courts have no interest in your wellbeing therefore your ability to stay fit and healthy in order to continue paying your obligations. As far as the Courts are concerned, the needs of the child are paramount. You are just there to pay what the Courts order. Learn to live with it.

Again, a cautionary summary of what happens when you get of yourself into this sorry mess. It is not a nice place to be and it does not have any choices without dire consequences. This is the result of coming up against a very smart ex wife who has thought every scenario through and planned diligently, working in conjunction with a very smart, dedicated and devious (nothing wrong with that) Lawyer. Good for her. I was naive in thinking that a generous Divorce Convention would suffice. For the married men reading this and thinking about divorcing your wife I say that women are a lot smarter than you and a lot smarter than you ever imagined in your wildest dreams; be prepared for one who wants all your money and your head on a stick as well because when (and not if) that happens you are going to lose everything except the clothes you are stood up in, including your health, self esteem and dignity. Think carefully before you tread this path.

Now, if youíve managed to read this far I commend you. Thank you for taking the time. I hope my experiences and observations will serve as a precursor for others contemplating or already treading this treacherous path.

Take care out there. And remember, lifeís a bitch and then you die. Or in the case of this post, lifeís a bitch and then you marry (and in my case divorce) one
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Old 26.02.2019, 06:16
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Re: leaving Switzerland in the middle of separation / divorce / alimony procedures

I omitted an important point for which I apologise....

According to legal advice IĒve received, it is at best naive to think that any redundancy payment you may receive if you lose your job is off limits as far as a Court is concerned. The Courts can relieve you of some or all of that if they so choose. They can still order that you use it to pay your obligations.

And further; that the Courts can also put a lien on your pension to protect the interests of the child. They can order it to be used to pay your obligations.

It would appear that is is all nicely sewn up, with no loopholes or ways out.

I was told by my lawyer that neither is easy, but as that individual has spouted more bad advice and rubbish in two-and-a-half years than Iíve ever heard from anyone else in a lifetime so itís highly likely to be a lot easier than has been suggested.....

Take care out there. There are fools and idiots at every turn.
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