Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Family matters/health  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01.07.2018, 12:27
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Winterthur
Posts: 75
Groaned at 9 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 27 Times in 10 Posts
ruskasinthehouse is considered unworthyruskasinthehouse is considered unworthyruskasinthehouse is considered unworthy
Oppositional Defiant Disorder

Hello,

Any idea over Oppositional Defiant Disorder, advice,experiences?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 01.07.2018, 12:32
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Oppositional Defiant Disorder

Quote:
View Post
Hello,

Any idea over Oppositional Defiant Disorder, advice,experiences?
I know it as ODD in an educational context. In what context are you looking for info? If a diagnosis has been received you'll need to go back to the relevent mental health care team/ provider for additional information/support specific to that case. I don't mean to sound dismissive - I know it's a difficult thing to manage - I'm just not sure what input you're after. My experiences are anecdotal and from a teacher/UK state school perspective.

I know it's a conduct disorder (an admittedly "catch-all" term) that often goes hand in hand with ADHD etc and can escalate.

Last edited by RufusB; 01.07.2018 at 14:52. Reason: Clarification
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 01.07.2018, 13:29
NotAllThere's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 12,814
Groaned at 204 Times in 181 Posts
Thanked 18,533 Times in 7,565 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Oppositional Defiant Disorder

I don't know, but it seems a little ODD to me.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank NotAllThere for this useful post:
  #4  
Old 01.07.2018, 13:55
MusicChick's Avatar
modified, reprogrammed and doctored²
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: La Cote
Posts: 16,310
Groaned at 346 Times in 239 Posts
Thanked 18,808 Times in 9,795 Posts
MusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Oppositional Defiant Disorder

You gotta tell us more in order to help better... Either way, hope you (whoever is labeled that way) are doing ok.

Sometimes people are stubborn for no reason or just for being defiant, sometimes because they really actually do know better and keep consistent
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank MusicChick for this useful post:
This user groans at MusicChick for this post:
  #5  
Old 01.07.2018, 14:56
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Oppositional Defiant Disorder

Quote:
View Post

Sometimes people are stubborn for no reason or just for being defiant, sometimes because they really actually do know better and keep consistent

ODD is more than mere stubbornness or occasional defiance which all kids exhibit from time to time; this goes beyond the "normal" testing of boundaries and can spill into vindictive, dangerous behaviours that can become more problematic and even dangerous over time. Relevant MH counselling support, for the families as well as the child, is important. Any consistently vindictive, defiant, oppositional behaviours are an issue. Come on, MC, you're an educator, you know this.
Reply With Quote
The following 6 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #6  
Old 01.07.2018, 15:14
MusicChick's Avatar
modified, reprogrammed and doctored²
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: La Cote
Posts: 16,310
Groaned at 346 Times in 239 Posts
Thanked 18,808 Times in 9,795 Posts
MusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Oppositional Defiant Disorder

Quote:
ODD is more than mere stubbornness or occasional defiance which all kids exhibit from time to time; this goes beyond the "normal" testing of boundaries and can spill into vindictive, dangerous behaviours that can become more problematic and even dangerous over time. Relevant MH counselling support, for the families as well as the child, is important. Any consistently vindictive, defiant, oppositional behaviours are an issue. Come on, MC, you're an educator, you know this.
Did I say I don't?

Last edited by MusicChick; 04.07.2018 at 21:23. Reason: A popular internet meme edited out, oops
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank MusicChick for this useful post:
The following 3 users groan at MusicChick for this post:
  #7  
Old 01.07.2018, 15:28
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Oppositional Defiant Disorder

Quote:
View Post
Did I say I don't
Not in so many words, no. I inferred. And no, not a fan. Rapidly losing respect to be honest.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 06.07.2018 at 15:51. Reason: Meme removed by MC, doing some tidying to remove the references to it
Reply With Quote
The following 10 users would like to thank for this useful post:
This user groans at for this post:
  #8  
Old 01.07.2018, 15:35
MusicChick's Avatar
modified, reprogrammed and doctored²
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: La Cote
Posts: 16,310
Groaned at 346 Times in 239 Posts
Thanked 18,808 Times in 9,795 Posts
MusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Oppositional Defiant Disorder

Quote:
Not in so many words, no. I inferred. And no, not a fan. Rapidly losing respect to be honest.
You go out of your way to "infer" in order to flame somebody. Don't.

OP, let me state again, before it gets side tracked further:

Quote:
View Post
You gotta tell us more in order to help better.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 06.07.2018 at 15:52. Reason: Meme removed by MC, doing some tidying to remove the references to it
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank MusicChick for this useful post:
The following 2 users groan at MusicChick for this post:
  #9  
Old 01.07.2018, 15:38
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: ZH
Posts: 7,493
Groaned at 74 Times in 60 Posts
Thanked 11,037 Times in 4,491 Posts
doropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Oppositional Defiant Disorder

Quote:
View Post
You go out of your way to "infer" in order to flame somebody.
I disagree that RufusB does this. Not in this thread, not elsewhere.

Someone started this thread about a mental health issue. Please, MusicChick, don't use it for something else of your own.

Last edited by doropfiz; 01.07.2018 at 16:52. Reason: typo
Reply With Quote
The following 11 users would like to thank doropfiz for this useful post:
This user groans at doropfiz for this post:
  #10  
Old 01.07.2018, 15:42
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Oppositional Defiant Disorder

Quote:
View Post
You go out of your way to "infer" in order to flame somebody. Don't.

OP, let me state again, before it gets side tracked further:
Excuse me? I did no such thing. Please don't make aggressive swipes like this. I could say more but would then derail the thread yet further.

I already asked the OP for more context but he's (?) Probably read this lot and headed for the hills.

OP: i hope you find the information you need.

Last edited by RufusB; 01.07.2018 at 15:52. Reason: Typo
Reply With Quote
The following 6 users would like to thank for this useful post:
This user groans at for this post:
  #11  
Old 01.07.2018, 16:00
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: ZH
Posts: 7,493
Groaned at 74 Times in 60 Posts
Thanked 11,037 Times in 4,491 Posts
doropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Oppositional Defiant Disorder

Like any other disorder, Oppositional Defiant Disorder can have a range of causes.
Sometimes the situation is just too chaotic to concentrate on those, however, at least not to start with. That may come later.

This post is not about treatment, but about trying to cope with the immediate, day-to-day living, especially if everything feels like it is falling apart.

It can help to read, read, read.

Observe the person (I don’t know if it you who has received this diagnosis, or someone near you, so I’m just going to call the person “Graeme”) to try to figure out what the worst symptoms are.

Have a good look at which behaviours Graeme exhibits, and see if it is possible to rank them, from worst to least-worst, in terms of danger and suffering.

Of the dangerous behaviours, focus on those that immediately harm Graeme himself, the people around him, or the physical environment. Try to understand whether at least some of those could be limited.

This could involve, for example, trying to figure out, and then teaching the people around Graeme, whether it is better or worse
• to approach him physically,
• to speak to him or to remain silent, if speaking then about the tone of voice (does he respond better or worse to short instructions, to a longer, ongoing, soothing voice, is it possible to avoid harsh words and issuing commands, etc.)
• to let him run away or to catch and hold him
• to remove or to use physical barriers
• to construct one’s environment to minimise damage (pack those precious vases well away from him).

Next, have a look at what causes not so much danger, but emotional suffering.
Again, try to figure out whether Graeme, first of all, and those around him, suffer most from
• any words he may speak, insults he may give out, accusations he may make
• his not delivering what was required by the time he was required to do it
• having their person or their authority degraded, etc.
• financial consequences of his behaviours
• fears about his future.

Of course, the above are just a few examples. My point is that it is worth doing the above exercise to figure out which issues are the most urgent to try to minimise.

Graeme may be formally supposed to wear a uniform, but doesn’t. It might be helpful to shift the focus away from criticising him if he fails to get his tie knotted neatly, if his retaining that part of his defiance enables him to function better in some other area of his life.

Teach the people around Graeme that this is a diagnosed disorder, and that they will not be helping him if they jump all over him for any and every deviation from obedience.

Choose an area and see if it is possible to work with him in that one area.

It might be possible for him to learn to say (or even yell): “I don’t want to do that!” before he reaches the point of exploding (acting out, becoming destructive), or write it on a piece of paper (or use a pre-arranged symbol, in the case of familiar people ready to accept the symbol as valid communication) imploding (into himself, closing up, doing nothing). If he can learn that, it is already a step forward because the information is clearly out in the open.

In sum, to start with, try to limit the damage and suffering by making sure that people know what is going on, and by ensuring that some attempts (not too many at once) are being made to lessen the fall-out. Once this has been achieved, everyday life becomes less exhausting and less of a strain, and the next layer can be approached.
Reply With Quote
The following 12 users would like to thank doropfiz for this useful post:
  #12  
Old 01.07.2018, 16:16
Tasebo's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Wald, Zurich/Stockholm
Posts: 1,298
Groaned at 7 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 1,415 Times in 704 Posts
Tasebo has a reputation beyond reputeTasebo has a reputation beyond reputeTasebo has a reputation beyond reputeTasebo has a reputation beyond reputeTasebo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Oppositional Defiant Disorder

just to further stir the fire - there is another “syndrome” less often mentioned than ODD but recognised amongst professionals working with young people

PDA (Pathological Demand Avoidance syndrome) is a sub-group on the autism spectrum, often co-existing in individuals with Aspergers eg. PDA is characterised by a continued resistance to everyday demands through strategies of social manipulation, which originate through an anxiety-driven need to be in control.

Before anyone casts off the mention of yet another letter combination, having more awareness earlier in a child’s life of what might truly be driving extreme stubbornness, can open the door for effective intervention options and workable strategies.
Reply With Quote
The following 9 users would like to thank Tasebo for this useful post:
  #13  
Old 01.07.2018, 16:26
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Oppositional Defiant Disorder

Quote:
View Post
just to further stir the fire - there is another “syndrome” less often mentioned than ODD but recognised amongst professionals working with young people

PDA (Pathological Demand Avoidance syndrome) is a sub-group on the autism spectrum, often co-existing in individuals with Aspergers eg. PDA is characterised by a continued resistance to everyday demands through strategies of social manipulation, which originate through an anxiety-driven need to be in control.

Before anyone casts off the mention of yet another letter combination, having more awareness earlier in a child’s life of what might truly be driving extreme stubbornness, can open the door for effective intervention options and workable strategies.
Good post, totally agree.

It's also worth mentioning, that for some kids, PDA can occur for a time as a reaction to environmental stresses/ anxiety with noisy classrooms, bright lights that often accompany sensory disorders. Once the stresses are removed, or reduced significantly, PDA can become less of an issue for some children.
Reply With Quote
The following 6 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #14  
Old 01.07.2018, 16:28
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: ZH
Posts: 7,493
Groaned at 74 Times in 60 Posts
Thanked 11,037 Times in 4,491 Posts
doropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Oppositional Defiant Disorder

Quote:
View Post
. PDA is characterised by a continued resistance to everyday demands through strategies of social manipulation, which originate through an anxiety-driven need to be in control.

Before anyone casts off the mention of yet another letter combination, having more awareness earlier in a child’s life of what might truly be driving extreme stubbornness, can open the door for effective intervention options and workable strategies.
Yes! Well put! I know a man whose ability to deliver what was required of him was totally turned around when his manager said: "You don't seem happy, and we're not happy. You're not doing the work required of you, the way we want it. We don't understand what is causing the problem. But I think you just need to do things your way, so you feel safer."

He was asked to please think about what he wanted and what he thought he needed, and to report back to his superior so they could see whether it were possible (reasonable) to give him more of the conditions he wanted and felt he needed to be able to work better.

Some people on the autism spectrum suffer from overload of stimuli.
It turned out that this man needed his colleague to switch off the radio in the office.

Some people with ODD and PDA need overt strategies to feel in control, and to signal that they are in charge of their own selves.
This man was encouraged by his manager to say: "I've decided I need a break. I'm going for a walk. I'll be back as soon as I can work again." As it is, just knowing he's permitted to do this, and that he is in control of his time and energy, means that he seldom stops work to go out, and when he does, it is usually for not much longer than a smoker might use for a smoke-break.

Edit: oops, Swisstree was faster!

Last edited by doropfiz; 01.07.2018 at 16:39. Reason: typo
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank doropfiz for this useful post:
  #15  
Old 01.07.2018, 16:33
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Oppositional Defiant Disorder

Tasebo, Swisstree, Doropfiz, yes. Brilliantly put.

Tasebo, I've got a student like this at the moment and he's incredibly intelligent... just needs all stresses minimising. I believe factors are exacerbated because of early childhood issues. He's also high functioning Aspergers. Needs to know there's always a choice in the classroom (relevant and managed by the teacher really) and the choice to be able to leave it. As a result he works very well, achieves, and apart from the occasional wobble stays in the room. If I can work dragons into the lesson, all the better.

Aaaand Doropfiz was faster'n me!

Last edited by RufusB; 01.07.2018 at 16:45. Reason: Doropfiz :) and my too fast typing
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #16  
Old 01.07.2018, 16:43
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: ZH
Posts: 7,493
Groaned at 74 Times in 60 Posts
Thanked 11,037 Times in 4,491 Posts
doropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Oppositional Defiant Disorder

Quote:
View Post
It's also worth mentioning, that for some kids, PDA can occur for a time as a reaction to environmental stresses/ anxiety...
Yes. A teacher I know, who had tried all sorts of remedial measures, finally asked the child: "Why do you think you don't like to obey instructions here at school, when your parents say you are very well behaved at home?"

The child replied, with not a second's hesitation: "Here with you, I can say no. You don't hit me."
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank doropfiz for this useful post:
  #17  
Old 01.07.2018, 20:32
Verbier's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Lully VD
Posts: 4,277
Groaned at 16 Times in 16 Posts
Thanked 4,465 Times in 2,277 Posts
Verbier has a reputation beyond reputeVerbier has a reputation beyond reputeVerbier has a reputation beyond reputeVerbier has a reputation beyond reputeVerbier has a reputation beyond reputeVerbier has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Oppositional Defiant Disorder

Hopefully to add another potential view on what might be happening.

There are a couple of books that deal with interactions involving difficult children. Links:

https://www.amazon.com/Explosive-Chi...XA23MMSTSXSW1A

https://www.amazon.com/Transforming-...XA23MMSTSXSW1A

One of the things mentioned in these situations of opposition is that often the child is looking for attention from the adult. It does not matter if the attention is positive or negative!
__________________
Do or do not, there is no try(ing). Yoda
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Verbier for this useful post:
  #18  
Old 02.07.2018, 02:12
swisspea's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: From one side of lake Zurich to the other...
Posts: 6,109
Groaned at 39 Times in 29 Posts
Thanked 6,023 Times in 2,804 Posts
swisspea has a reputation beyond reputeswisspea has a reputation beyond reputeswisspea has a reputation beyond reputeswisspea has a reputation beyond reputeswisspea has a reputation beyond reputeswisspea has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Oppositional Defiant Disorder

I would be cautious about assuming ODD when the child/adult already has an autism diagnosis. One of the features of autism is the limited ability for the person to imagine things from the other person's point of view.


This, plus needing things to be reliable/consistent, and being resistant to challenge or change, can be all related to autism.


As for the 'getting along' with it. I remember just after my first child was born (she's 18 years old now!)...hearing a radio interview talking to some scientists about genetics and personality. Basically the conclusion was that 90% of 'personality' cannot be changed. So instead of trying to change the person, try to find a way that everyone in the household can get their basic needs met and get along without too much conflict...



For the educational context, that will take a round-table between the therapists/psychologists/school psychologist/paediatrician/school teacher/school management and parents...to try to understand better what is going on and how to handle the behaviour and support the person's wellbeing. The focus may not be on behaviour management, but on self-esteem, social skills, cognitive flexibility...
Reply With Quote
The following 8 users would like to thank swisspea for this useful post:
  #19  
Old 02.07.2018, 16:54
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Zurich
Posts: 656
Groaned at 41 Times in 19 Posts
Thanked 836 Times in 373 Posts
marischi has a reputation beyond reputemarischi has a reputation beyond reputemarischi has a reputation beyond reputemarischi has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Oppositional Defiant Disorder

Quote:
View Post
This man was encouraged by his manager to say: "I've decided I need a break. I'm going for a walk. I'll be back as soon as I can work again." !

I do think that treating everyone like this,most of those those CAPITAL ILLNESSES could be cured and would become extinct right from tomorrow on.

Last edited by marischi; 02.07.2018 at 18:10.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank marischi for this useful post:
  #20  
Old 02.07.2018, 20:06
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: ZH
Posts: 7,493
Groaned at 74 Times in 60 Posts
Thanked 11,037 Times in 4,491 Posts
doropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Oppositional Defiant Disorder

Quote:
View Post
I do think that treating everyone like this,most of those those CAPITAL ILLNESSES could be cured and would become extinct right from tomorrow on.
Your post made me smile. I pictured, for a moment, a huge company operating on that basis, with everything taking the occasional break. Sounded pretty healthy.

Yes, that would perhaps instantly cure some issues, certainly, though not all. Indeed, with that degree of flexibility, in this world in which we are too often called upon to do things we don't want to do, or when or how we don't want to do them, some others might be prevented in the first place.

For those who really do have a serious disorder/syndrome/problem, however, a manager like that can be a blessing in terms of helping to find ways to handle the symptoms, but the actual issue doesn't, of course, just magic away.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank doropfiz for this useful post:
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
DS Autistic Spectrum disorder Niceyes Family matters/health 31 24.05.2015 09:55
ADHD (attention deficit hyperactivity disorder) Guest Family matters/health 33 04.06.2013 18:02
Eating disorder help in Switzerland jazzlady79 Family matters/health 31 11.01.2012 11:52
Childishness or Mental Disorder?? Wolfswinkel Family matters/health 23 04.07.2011 17:12
Funny essay on Swiss Multiple Personality Disorder TheSpouse General off-topic 11 25.06.2010 11:59


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 22:08.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0