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Old 15.07.2018, 20:35
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threat of murder - how to prevent disaster?

I'm looking for references to cases in Switzerland in which
  1. a Person A made a threat to harm a Peson B,
  2. Person B reported this threat to the authorities (such as police, school, legal guardian, KESB, prison, court, etc.),
  3. Person B's report and the threat itself were not taken seriously, so no restrictions were placed on Person A,
  4. Person A did then succeed in harming Person B.

Unfortunately my googling isn't leading anywhere, so I must be using the wrong searchwords.

I'm involved in a case in which 1., 2. and 3. have already taken place, repeatedly, and we are trying to find steps to prevent 4.

I'd appreciate any links to real cases, and also any advice, please. Thanks for any help.

Although I know that this Forum can deal with a fair amount of banter meant in good fun, I need to point out that this case is very serious, so I'd prefer no jokes about it, please. Thanks.
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Old 15.07.2018, 20:37
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Re: threat of murder - how to prevent disaster?

If the case is serious you should be taking to a lawyer not a forum for expats. I hope you get the hep you need here but you shouldn't rely on hearsay and strangers for something like that.


My only advice would be to get a restraining order but I know nothing about whether this is something that exists in CH. If it was me I would just move away in a heartbeat, if your finance can afford it. No need to take chances if police is not willing to help.
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Old 15.07.2018, 20:39
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Re: threat of murder - how to prevent disaster?

Yes, thanks, we are definitely involved with various rounds of authorities, and started with a lawyer.

Yes, moving away is the primary advice that has been given, but the Person B cannot afford to do that now.

I know that there have been precedents in Switzerland, but I can't seem to find them. If anyone can remember them, the names, or the procedures, or dig them up out of the internet, I'd be very grateful.
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Old 15.07.2018, 20:45
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Re: threat of murder - how to prevent disaster?

I do not have examples, but if you would have the time to read back years of newspapers you should run into a few cases that ended terribly wrong.

If this has happened repeatedly and you can proof this, you perhaps can file a court case to ask for a "kontaktverbot" based on article 28

https://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classifi...ndex.html#a28b

A lawyer can search in the history of court cases and hand you similar cases.
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Old 15.07.2018, 20:51
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Re: threat of murder - how to prevent disaster?

Yes, I am sure there are examples, and yes, a lawyer could find them. As the Person B does not have money to move, he also does not have money to pay for lawyers. Therefore, we are trying to keep the lawyer's fees lower by at least knowing as much of the info beforehand.

I have tried searching for those "cases that ended terribly wrong", but though I can remember some vaguely, I can't seem to find anything online, which is why I hoped someone here would remember some details of cases, or at least know what the proper searchwords might be.
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Old 15.07.2018, 21:00
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Re: threat of murder - how to prevent disaster?

https://www.derbund.ch/panorama/verm...story/22475723

And a bit more about this case.

https://www.beobachter.ch/beziehung-...te-beziehungen
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Old 15.07.2018, 21:07
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Re: threat of murder - how to prevent disaster?

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Person B does not have money to move, he also does not have money to pay for lawyers.
Then why kill him?
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Old 15.07.2018, 21:07
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Re: threat of murder - how to prevent disaster?

Doropfiz, have you seen this Infoblatt on stalking and threats, especially section the chapter on Rechtschutz?

http://www.ohsg.ch/wp-content/upload...verfolgt-1.pdf

(I'm rather dismayed that suggestions for prevention seem to stress the victim's actions and measures...)


You might find something helpful here, for instance 5.1 Gewaltschutznorm gemäss Zivilgesetzbuch and 5.2, Opferhilfegesetz.

http://www.swissparalegal.ch/dokumen...offizialdelikt


Are you in contact with any of the victim's aid organizations?
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Old 15.07.2018, 21:30
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Re: threat of murder - how to prevent disaster?

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Then why kill him?
Or, why shouldn't person B take out person A as a preventative measure?

Tom
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Old 15.07.2018, 21:41
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Re: threat of murder - how to prevent disaster?

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Then why kill him?
Misplaced vengance due to conflating unrelated events and people, within episodes of severe psychosis.
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Old 15.07.2018, 21:42
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Re: threat of murder - how to prevent disaster?

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Or, why shouldn't person B take out person A as a preventative measure?

Tom
Not legal practice in Switzerland.
Person B has no desire to inflict harm to Person A, who is clearly unwell.
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Old 15.07.2018, 21:49
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Re: threat of murder - how to prevent disaster?

If person A is mentally sick and is a threat to themselves or the others, the easiest is probably to have them committed. A doctor can decide to hospitalise someone against their will in these situations. It8217;s regularly used in psychosis cases, as the person loses contact with reality during a crisis.

Moreover, I suppose that person A won8217;t be a threat anymore under an adequate medication
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Old 15.07.2018, 21:51
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Re: threat of murder - how to prevent disaster?

Thank you, Edwin. Since Person A and Person B are not a couple or family, (they are former neighbours) it hadn't occurred to me to look up "häusliche Gewalt". So yes, this is the kind of case I've been looking for, and now I'm going to try to look further for non-couples.
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Old 15.07.2018, 21:52
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Re: threat of murder - how to prevent disaster?

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Are you in contact with any of the victim's aid organizations?
Yes. Their advice was the same as Troubleawsome's: if at all possible, Person B should move away. Regrettably, the funds are not available to do so.

Like the article in the Beobachter, to which Edwin linked, the lawyer at the Victim's Support also says that the protection of the victim, or the lack thereof, is a crying shame, and that the laws are too weak.

Last edited by doropfiz; 15.07.2018 at 22:04.
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Old 15.07.2018, 22:00
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Re: threat of murder - how to prevent disaster?

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If person A is mentally sick and is a threat to themselves or the others, the easiest is probably to have them committed. A doctor can decide to hospitalise someone against their will in these situations. It8217;s regularly used in psychosis cases, as the person loses contact with reality during a crisis.

Moreover, I suppose that person A won8217;t be a threat anymore under an adequate medication
Yes, Person A does, in fact, already live in a psychiatric institution, permanently, after having made such a round of threats some years ago.

Now, the staff in the institution have decided that Person A is doing well on medication, has made progress, is feeling calmer, and no longer poses a threat. For this reason, the "committed" part (Fürsorgliche Unterbringung) has been lifted somewhat, so that Person A is now permitted to leave the institution once a week, to take a trip into town. Mostly, Person A returns incident-free to the institution.

Recently, however, Person A has deviated from the agreement with regard to that day out, and has returned to threaten Person B again.

The guardian and the instituion staff, however, remain blind or deaf to this. It seems that they see Person A only during calm, well-medicated, not violent, states, and not wildly psychotic and full of threats.

By the time Person A arrives at Person B's doorstep, the psychosis is fully-blown, the threats are loud, and the danger is real.
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Old 15.07.2018, 22:00
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Re: threat of murder - how to prevent disaster?

If B is male, A female, and there is no family relationship, good luck with your endeavor.

https://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz...story/17550246

https://www.beobachter.ch/gesetze-re...tat-verhindert

https://www.ebg.admin.ch/ebg/de/home...he-gewalt.html

https://www.jgk.be.ch/jgk/de/index/a...ehörden_de.pdf

https://www.solothurnerzeitung.ch/so...gnis-131309813

https://www.vgso.ch/fileadmin/Inhalt...management.pdf
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Old 15.07.2018, 22:06
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Re: threat of murder - how to prevent disaster?

The person involved must get an interdict from police. Hope that scenario 4 won’t take place.
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Old 15.07.2018, 22:19
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Re: threat of murder - how to prevent disaster?

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If B is male, A female, and there is no family relationship, good luck with your endeavor.
Thanks for the long list of links. Kind of you to look them up. I appreciate your doing so, even though they seem to show, essentially, that very little can be done, other than reporting and reporting and reporting, because there is no legal basis for taking action, other than very temporarily.

As it happens, both Person A and Person B are female. The guardian of Person A is male, her former guardian was female, though I don't know if that makes any difference.

Person A attempted to kill someone else, unrelated to Person B, years ago. That victim was male, and survived with a severe knife wound in his shoulder, only because he managed to jump those few relevant centimetres, so as not to get her home-made dagger in his heart.
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Old 15.07.2018, 22:40
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Re: threat of murder - how to prevent disaster?

I don't know the law regarding this, but can Person B record the interactions with Person A and provide proof of the behaviour? Could they just hold a phone up and record the entire episode?
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Old 15.07.2018, 22:46
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Re: threat of murder - how to prevent disaster?

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By the time Person A arrives at Person B's doorstep, the psychosis is fully-blown, the threats are loud, and the danger is real.
Pepper spray, taser, or shotgun would be my choices.

Tom
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