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Old 07.11.2018, 14:42
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Re: Divorce - sale of property - buying the other persons share?

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Open market value is way above the fixed price. What happens with the extra money if the house would be sold above the fixed price? Does it go to the project developer, the state, is it partially fined, or can you keep it?

Also I don't see why a Judge would set an even lower price than the fixed price to make you both unhappy. It opens the way for you or her to ask your uncle or nephew to buy the house for such price and just sell it in a few yrs with a guaranteed huge profit, agree on offering them a 100K profit on their investment and the one who does this walks out with 300K while the other gets nothing. Many forum members would love to buy your house today for either fixed or even lower price, even for only a partial chunk of the profit. Or if one party stays in a lower set value cannot make both unhappy since the one who stays gets a bargain where the other gets less. I fail to understand this.
If you sell the property above the price then the extra proceeds goes to the Canton in Tax.

Yes, the situation is nuts, however the judge is fed up with this case, that makes two of us. She can set a lower price in order to punish us both if we fail to come to an agreement before the deadline.

If that happens then someone is going to get an amazing deal.

I am not aware of what happens if she sets a lower price, in who can bid for it or how that is handled?

Last edited by magic; 07.11.2018 at 14:43. Reason: Extra question
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  #22  
Old 07.11.2018, 16:47
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Re: Divorce - sale of property - buying the other persons share?

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Penalty for selling early @60K

The price can be set lower if we do not come to an agreement before the deadline and the judge has threatened to do that.

Ignoring the penalty I would have to pay her approximately 116K
Calculation being ... (894 - (580+83))/2
If there is a 60k penalty then you should both share that burden. Based on that you should only have to pay her 86k if you want to buy her out and the same vice versa.

The only reasonable thing I see here is that (maybe it’s not possible): you divorce and remain joint equal owners until the 10 year anniversary of buying the property is up and then you sell and both benefit or lose equally.

The person remaining in the peroperty until it’s sold would have to pay the other, half of the legally allowable rent amount (I saw another message where you said the rent is also controlled)
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Old 07.11.2018, 17:13
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Re: Divorce - sale of property - buying the other persons share?

I think you all don't understand. This fix price thing is law in order to prevent real estate speculation. You can not just calculate a certain amount of loss and do it anyway.
(Didn't we vote about this once?).

Unless I got it wrong too.
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Old 07.11.2018, 17:36
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Re: Divorce - sale of property - buying the other persons share?

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I think you all don't understand. This fix price thing is law in order to prevent real estate speculation. You can not just calculate a certain amount of loss and do it anyway.
(Didn't we vote about this once?).

Unless I got it wrong too.

It’s not clear what law or regulation exactly is preventing the OP from selling the house at market value. I am aware there are laws to prevent real estate speculation but my understanding is that you would be penalized if you sell within the first 5 years usually. And most importantly it’s in the form of high capital gains tax and would only be applicable if you don’t invest in another property within one year.

From what the OP is saying this seems like a special condition that was part of buying this apartment which is stipulated by either the builder or the Kanton.

@OP: It would probably help if you could give some more info on that part.
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Old 07.11.2018, 18:11
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Re: Divorce - sale of property - buying the other persons share?

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Itís not clear what law or regulation exactly is preventing the OP from selling the house at market value. I am aware there are laws to prevent real estate speculation but my understanding is that you would be penalized if you sell within the first 5 years usually. And most importantly itís in the form of high capital gains tax and would only be applicable if you donít invest in another property within one year.

From what the OP is saying this seems like a special condition that was part of buying this apartment which is stipulated by either the builder or the Kanton.

@OP: It would probably help if you could give some more info on that part.
This indeed, I know of constructions in other country's where for example corporations sell buildings to their renters for discounted prices, or take Italy where one can buy a house for a Euro in deserted small towns. But with indeed restrictions on reselling within a given period and perhaps other obligations. But never heard of new buildings put into the market with such restrictions, nor can I think of any reason why either a company or a government would do so. Sure the capital tax is a thing, but OP says that if they sell within 10 yrs there will be a fine of 60K and any profit would have to be handed over 100% unless it was a huge bargain by then I also fail to see why somebody would sign up for such.
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Old 07.11.2018, 20:11
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Re: Divorce - sale of property - buying the other persons share?

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This indeed, I know of constructions in other country's where for example corporations sell buildings to their renters for discounted prices, or take Italy where one can buy a house for a Euro in deserted small towns. But with indeed restrictions on reselling within a given period and perhaps other obligations. But never heard of new buildings put into the market with such restrictions, nor can I think of any reason why either a company or a government would do so. Sure the capital tax is a thing, but OP says that if they sell within 10 yrs there will be a fine of 60K and any profit would have to be handed over 100% unless it was a huge bargain by then I also fail to see why somebody would sign up for such.
It is in a development zone and this is not the only one in Geneva. It is stiff competition in Geneva to get one, it was 25 years in the planning and also close now to Pont-Rouge which is going to house 7000 office workers in the next few years, which makes it a really good for renting.

The 60K fine is in fact an early payment penalty by the lender.

When the 24 apartments came on the market at 10.00am they were all sold by noon and you had to be able to put down 5% deposit within 24 hours and another 20% within the next 14 days.

I want to make a fair offer in court based on the sale price today (the price is confirmed in a letter she submitted to the court by the Canton lodgement) if she wants to sell so by my calculation that is 116K as the 60K penalty would not kick in as I would most probably borrow the extra money separately.

Last edited by magic; 07.11.2018 at 20:27.
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  #27  
Old 07.11.2018, 22:48
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Re: Divorce - sale of property - buying the other persons share?

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I want to make a fair offer in court based on the sale price today (the price is confirmed in a letter she submitted to the court by the Canton lodgement) if she wants to sell so by my calculation that is 116K as the 60K penalty would not kick in as I would most probably borrow the extra money separately.
You stand to gain substantially if you buy her out now and the same goes for her if she were to buy you out or get someone to buy it on her behalf. This is because you are in a situation where the market value is substantially higher than the maximum you are legally allowed to sell for right now.

So me being as neutral as can be in this case, the only fair option I see is that you share the potential upside as well as risk equally or proportionally to your equity in the property.

The options for doing that can only be determined by an expert estate agent in such matters (Iím sure youíre not the first person to be in such a situation) and clearly requires cooperation from both sides.

Iím sure some financial wiz would be able to price the present value of you gain in 3 or 4 years time and adjust it with the risk that the property might go down in price.

Itís certainly gonna be a lot higher than just paying her 116k. Itís somewhere between 116k and 316k. With 116k being the minimum you could offer and 316k which assumes the price would be at least 1.3m in 3 years time with 100% certainty. So somewhere in between is probably fair. Iím sure sheíll bite your hand off if you offer anywhere between 200k and 250k.

If she accepts you can then discuss how she could stay in the house and at what price. You should be able to get the 100k-150k extra you pay her through rent in 3-5 years time depending on what you agree.
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Old 08.11.2018, 16:02
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Re: Divorce - sale of property - buying the other persons share?

It seems your ex has more trust in the judge than in you. Similar to your standpoint tbh. But the judge may decide to sell the appartement to a third party.
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  #29  
Old 08.11.2018, 16:36
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Re: Divorce - sale of property - buying the other persons share?

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It seems your ex has more trust in the judge than in you. Similar to your standpoint tbh. But the judge may decide to sell the appartement to a third party.
I've heard of plenty of cases where a Judge forces one of the parties to go along with a sale, but if none of the parties wants to sell on what ground or why would a Judge rule that a house has to be sold? They have troubles setting correct value and how to divide, now there a Judge could "help" by forcing a solution, but forcing to sell (even given the fine) would imho be ridiculous in every way possible.
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Old 08.11.2018, 16:40
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Re: Divorce - sale of property - buying the other persons share?

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The 60K fine is in fact an early payment penalty by the lender.
So the penalty has nothing to do with the sale of the property it self but is a side issue. This penalty only kicks in when you repay the loan early, right? But why repay it when you can transfer it or is this also not possible?

Friend of mine bought an apartment with a 10 fixed loan with penalty. Although the interest was much higher than actual market rate it was more economic for the seller to adjust sell price to reflect the difference in interest rates and offer the property including the loan.
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  #31  
Old 08.11.2018, 16:56
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Re: Divorce - sale of property - buying the other persons share?

Maybe too early to tell and need to concentrate on getting all the paperwork completed for the court. (That includes a proposal on my side)

Then my -ex- has another month to respond.

Then the judge rules.

The judge has stated she wants both sides to try and find a solution before the last date!

My lawyer will review all the paperwork and figures once I have produced them, then she will contact the other sides lawyer and start negotiations.

Will update the thread as it progresses, kind of fascinating, just wish I wasn't in the middle of this.
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Old 08.11.2018, 17:10
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Re: Divorce - sale of property - buying the other persons share?

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It seems your ex has more trust in the judge than in you. Similar to your standpoint tbh. But the judge may decide to sell the appartement to a third party.
Doubt that. Dispossession is extremly rare here! And afaIk only possible if it is about common weal. Think a few meters of your land for SBB, or a highway or public access to a lake.

OP be alert:
If her new partner buys her part, he's a third party! Make sure he gets all the "benefits"

If he gives her the money to buy you out, it's a "Schenkung", painful taxes she has to pay on that. Make sure she knows/does.

Unless you too have a rich, new partner (= chances are even) I would point these things out.
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Old 13.11.2018, 14:50
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Re: Divorce - sale of property - buying the other persons share?

Quick update on this bonkers situation:

No one including me understands why my -ex- wants to sell that is until I met with my therapist. She told me it was obvious, she wants to leave you with nothing or as little as possible; even if it means she loses out financially. (there is another claim for money she is making against me and would drive my situation to almost zero money and working 100% of the time but it is not realistic)

I spoke with the person at the Canton who wrote the document to court about the fixed price; he told me if I pay my -ex- even 1 CHF above the fixed price then they will take it in tax. It is governed by strict rules for the development zone; she would in theory gain and that is not allowed.

That leaves me with how to fund buying her out! (well at least try)

Last edited by magic; 13.11.2018 at 15:01.
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  #34  
Old 13.11.2018, 15:02
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Re: Divorce - sale of property - buying the other persons share?

what did you do to piss her off so badly?
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Old 13.11.2018, 15:03
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Re: Divorce - sale of property - buying the other persons share?

can you not just sell your 50% to a friend?
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Old 13.11.2018, 15:11
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Re: Divorce - sale of property - buying the other persons share?

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Quick update on this bonkers situation:

No one including me understands why my -ex- wants to sell that is until I met with my therapist. She told me it was obvious, she wants to leave you with nothing or as little as possible; even if it means she loses out financially. (there is another claim for money she is making against me and would drive my situation to almost zero money and working 100% of the time but it is not realistic)

I spoke with the person at the Canton who wrote the document to court about the fixed price; he told me if I pay my -ex- even 1 CHF above the fixed price then they will take it in tax. It is governed by strict rules for the development zone; she would in theory gain and that is not allowed.

That leaves me with how to fund buying her out! (well at least try)
Well, as you say, nobody knows and your therapist's thought is also just an assumption. You should not invest too much time and energy in the "why" now but get things pragmatically sorted. Did you get that Fr. 1.00 rule in writing? Paper is always good in court and shortens things up.

Think about the "why" after it's over, you'll have a lot of time then. I know it's difficult but in the end the healthiest way to go. 5 years and still ongoing? It's time to get past a milestone here.

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can you not just sell your 50% to a friend?
That would be a third party.
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Old 13.11.2018, 21:40
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Re: Divorce - sale of property - buying the other persons share?

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Did you get that Fr. 1.00 rule in writing? Paper is always good in court and shortens things up.
Yes it is now in a document submitted to the court.
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Old 13.11.2018, 21:48
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Re: Divorce - sale of property - buying the other persons share?

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what did you do to piss her off so badly?
Not meeting her needs

Apparently she did not feel she was ever good enough for me, so she had an affair, I found out & she has been borderline crazy since.

Truth is I loved her a lot, had three children with her, worked hard to provide, most probably too hard and most probably became a bit boring for her.
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