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  #41  
Old 21.01.2019, 09:23
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Re: Going on the IV pension

perhaps part of the pillar 2 is the insurance bit. BVG?
I would check this out.
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  #42  
Old 21.01.2019, 12:32
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Re: Going on the IV pension

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You are taxed on all income. I have 100 percent IV EL and BVG and have to pay tax.
As far as I know you
are even liable for tax on social help - but in my case my wife was working 60 percent. (before we received EL)
but pillar 2 contributions are tax free



Thanks


On the latest statement it gives some kind of breakdown which was not present on previous statements:


Contributions

Savings component XXXX

Risk contribution YYYY


X+Y adds up to a little less than the total from the payslips. Maybe there's an administration charge that is not listed.
Y is 12% of X+Y
X is what goes into the pensions savings pot.
I'll try to ask AXA for more clarity.
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  #43  
Old 21.01.2019, 13:04
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Re: Going on the IV pension

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You are taxed on all income. I have 100 percent IV EL and BVG and have to pay tax.
As far as I know you are even liable for tax on social help - but in my case my wife was working 60 percent. (before we received EL)
but pillar 2 contributions are tax free
EL is not taxed.
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  #44  
Old 22.01.2019, 14:48
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Re: Going on the IV pension

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EL is not taxed.
maybe where you live. Pro Senectute did our tax and we have a bill for 900chf.
Perhaps it is different if you are married and Swiss and your wife works part time.
I found it very unfair myself. Especially as they have blocked 900chf a month from the EL while I am fighting with a pension company and have my money in a Freizugigekeitkonto.
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  #45  
Old 22.01.2019, 14:53
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Re: Going on the IV pension

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As far as I know you are even liable for tax on social help
Yes, this is true, I know people who were on social aid and had to pay taxes on it.

Not so sure about IV, though.

Tom
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  #46  
Old 22.01.2019, 16:18
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Re: Going on the IV pension

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maybe where you live. Pro Senectute did our tax and we have a bill for 900chf.
Perhaps it is different if you are married and Swiss and your wife works part time.
I found it very unfair myself. Especially as they have blocked 900chf a month from the EL while I am fighting with a pension company and have my money in a Freizugigekeitkonto.
EL is not taxed, regardless of your situation. The tax you have paid is on the other part of your taxable income. The rule is identical in all cantons.

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Yes, this is true, I know people who were on social aid and had to pay taxes on it. Not so sure about IV, though.
EL is only paid out to people on a pension which is deemed too low to live off. Social aid is paid to persons who do not have any pension, because they are not disabled or because they have not reached the age when they can draw an old age pension.

Social aid and EL are two entirely different things. Correct, social aid is taxed. IV (from whichever pillar) is taxed. EL is not taxed.
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  #47  
Old 31.01.2019, 19:52
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Re: Going on the IV pension

In investigating the pillar 2 and contributions we've discovered a very significant error. Due to a clerical error shortly before the sickness absence began (2 years ago) the employer/pension company reduced the payments mid-year by about half, contrary to contract and without notification. It's on (most of) the payslips but they used to just get filed away. This means the projected pension amount, and consequently the IV pension will be a fraction of what it should have been.



This company has also forgotten to give contractual notice to coincide with the end of the taggeld insurance and we don't know now whether we should accept the voluntary termination (to a date actually a few days before the taggeld insurance expires) or not. In general people say never accept a voluntary termination.



IV says they're waiting on info from the hospital. Hospital says they never received anything.
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  #48  
Old 31.01.2019, 20:02
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Re: Going on the IV pension

The date that the IV give as the start of the illness is the definitive point.
Ahv-IV (pillar 1) is based on average contributions over your life. Pillar 2 should be shown on a pension certificate. I think the 12 months before the start count.
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  #49  
Old 01.02.2019, 06:38
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Re: Going on the IV pension

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In investigating the pillar 2 and contributions we've discovered a very significant error. Due to a clerical error shortly before the sickness absence began (2 years ago) the employer/pension company reduced the payments mid-year by about half, contrary to contract and without notification. It's on (most of) the payslips but they used to just get filed away. This means the projected pension amount, and consequently the IV pension will be a fraction of what it should have been.

This company has also forgotten to give contractual notice to coincide with the end of the taggeld insurance and we don't know now whether we should accept the voluntary termination (to a date actually a few days before the taggeld insurance expires) or not. In general people say never accept a voluntary termination.

IV says they're waiting on info from the hospital. Hospital says they never received anything.
If the company did not give notice then how is the change valid?

You should never accept any voluntary termination. As I have said before it is in your interest that the contract remains valid as they should be paying you your salary obviously.

What exactly is the IV waiting on from the hospital? What did the hospital never receive?
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  #50  
Old 01.02.2019, 09:31
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Re: Going on the IV pension

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In investigating the pillar 2 and contributions we've discovered a very significant error. Due to a clerical error shortly before the sickness absence began (2 years ago) the employer/pension company reduced the payments mid-year by about half, contrary to contract and without notification. It's on (most of) the payslips but they used to just get filed away. This means the projected pension amount, and consequently the IV pension will be a fraction of what it should have been.



This company has also forgotten to give contractual notice to coincide with the end of the taggeld insurance and we don't know now whether we should accept the voluntary termination (to a date actually a few days before the taggeld insurance expires) or not. In general people say never accept a voluntary termination.



IV says they're waiting on info from the hospital. Hospital says they never received anything.
Definitely, absolutely NOT.
This could even be used agains you later!
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Old 01.02.2019, 12:04
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Re: Going on the IV pension

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If the company did not give notice then how is the change valid?

You should never accept any voluntary termination. As I have said before it is in your interest that the contract remains valid as they should be paying you your salary obviously.

What exactly is the IV waiting on from the hospital? What did the hospital never receive?

Due to some budget problems, the employment contract was ended in spring 2016 only to be reinstated five weeks later. This was when the pension mistake happened. The old and new employment contracts specifically state the pension contribution amounts but they we never checked the statements until now. This makes a huge difference to the disability pension.


I didn't know if still technically being employed would somehow delay any IV decision. The employer need not pay any salary now if the employee has already been signed off so long and is still signed off work, right?



IV say they're waiting for "a couple of things". All the relevant information has been available since the start so I'm not really sure what they need now. We just have to wait I guess. We'd just like to get this stuff out of the way so we don't have to think about it anymore.
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  #52  
Old 01.02.2019, 12:20
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Re: Going on the IV pension

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I didn't know if still technically being employed would somehow delay any IV decision. The employer need not pay any salary now if the employee has already been signed off so long and is still signed off work, right?.
No it won't affect the IV decision.
You could try asking the employer to pay the salary. The worse they can say is no and say it is not due because they have already paid sick leave. But if you don't ask you won't know. Also you need to check the contract to see if there is anything in there about it.
Moreover you could consult someone at Pro Infirmis who may be able to advise on this somewhat abnormal situation.
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  #53  
Old 08.04.2019, 19:49
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Re: Going on the IV pension

So, two years and 2 months after the initial sickness absence we got the preliminary decision from the IV of a 100% disability without any specific reason for disability being given. Now it takes another two months before anything actually gets paid out. So anyway, that's that part done it seems.


What I'm not sure of now is if we should contact AXA for the pillar 2 or if this somehow will automatically be done. I don't remember whether they asked for those details on the original application.
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  #54  
Old 08.04.2019, 22:38
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Re: Going on the IV pension

Whew, that must be a relief, after such a very long wait.

Here's the short answer: yes, contact your pension fund. Long answer follows.
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  #55  
Old 08.04.2019, 22:38
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Re: Going on the IV pension

The document granting the IV pension is called the Verfügung, also known as IV-Verfügung or Rentenverfügung.

Guard it carefully.

The employer's illness insurance provided [at least some of] the income substitution until the IV decision had been made.

Sometimes the IV takes sooo long to issue the Verfügung that the insured person uses up the maximum income from the employer's illness insurance, and then lives off their own savings and then, once those are all but gone, have to claim support from the Sozialamt.

The employer's illness insurance and the Sozialamt have a right to be refunded. After all, they pre-funded until the IV kicked in.

When the IV gets around to paying out the pension, it will be backdated from the date of application.

Let's just say, for example, for ease of arithmetic:

You applied 25 months ago.
For the first 12 months the employer's illness insurance paid you 70 per month.
From month 13 to month 19 (7 months) you self-funded from savings and had no income.
From month 20 to 25 (6 months) the Sozialamt paid you 40 per month.
Now you're granted a monthly IV-pension of 50.


You will receive a statement from the IV saying that your IV entitlement is 25 x 50 back-pay, and 50 each month from now on.

To get the 50 per month from now on, you will have to sign that you agree to the pre-funded amounts being refunded. So you don't see that biggish looking lump sum.

50 x 25 = back-pay due to you = 1250
of which will be deducted:

refund to the employer's illness insurance = 12 x 50 = 600
refund to the Sozialamt = 6 x 40 = 240

balance due to you:
1250 - 600 - 240 = 410.

The refunds out of the IV-pension are always only up to the maximum of the IV-pension.

The difference of 12 x (70 - 50) = 240 is a deficit, the loss of the illness insurance company, and doesn't need to be repaid out of your IV-pension (but see SECOND pillar below).

There endeth the lesson on back-pay and refunds from the FIRST pillar (IV).

--------------------------------------------------
For the SECOND pillar (pension plan of the employer according to and perhaps exceeding the BVG law), YES, when you have the IV-Verfüging, send it to the HR of your former employer and also to the pension plan. The IV may inform one or both, but you have nothing to lose by doing so yourself, and may thereby prevent delays.

Let's say the pension plan awards you 80 per month.

Some BVG plans go through a similar process of first refunding the employer's illness insurance before they will pay out.

In the above example:

You will receive a statement from the PENSION PLAN saying that your entitlement is 25 x 80 back-pay, and 80 each month from now on.

80 x 25 = back-pay due to you = 2000
of which will be deducted:

total refund due to the employer's illness insurance = 12 x 70 = 840
less
already refunded out of the IV back-pay = 12 x 50 = 600
Equals 12 x 20 = 240.

balance due to you: 2000 - 240 = 1760.

Here, too, if the amount awarded to you is smaller that the illness insurance paid, you will not have to fund the deficit.
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  #56  
Old 08.04.2019, 22:49
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Re: Going on the IV pension

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Due to some budget problems, the employment contract was ended in spring 2016 only to be reinstated five weeks later. This was when the pension mistake happened. The old and new employment contracts specifically state the pension contribution amounts but they we never checked the statements until now. This makes a huge difference to the disability pension.
Did you ever get this sorted out? If it was an error of the employer, then surely they should rectify it?
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Old 08.04.2019, 23:51
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Re: Going on the IV pension

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Did you ever get this sorted out? If it was an error of the employer, then surely they should rectify it?



They say they will but we still have to see. Apparently the fault was with the pension company. If I hadn't have taken lots of time and done lots of research we never would have found this mistake and would be pretty much living off of savings. the pillar 1 pension will be very small due to paying in only at an older age, although I'm lead to believe UK contribution years also count. The Pillar 2 without the mistake should be something like 40% of the insured salary. This is from the higher pension level, a step above minimum. That makes a big difference. Probably 90% of the overall IV pension will come from pillar 2. Sad that with the current situation it won't be enjoyed for long.


Thanks for the examples. I understand that the back-dated IV essentially contributes towards the sickness insurance payments. They ran out (after two years) in Jan of this year. The pillar 2 payments have a waiting period of 24 months so there's not actually much of a gap or overlap but it will be another 2 months before we get the final decision. In the meantime the IV say they will contact other interested insurers so I hope that means the pillar 2 company etc.
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