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Old 28.11.2019, 16:31
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What can KESB (Kindes- und Erwachsenenschutzbehörde) do?

Dear All:

(I tried posting this tread early today but it didnt seem to work).

You may find my question the opposite of what you think: I am not seeking protection from KESB, but to seek protection against them if needed.

The story goes like this: I divorced my ex due to repeated adultery during and after my pregnancy. He claimed to have depression and didn't work for 10 years of our marriage. I would leave all the emotional and financial abuses out not to bore you or to embarrass myself. He has since gone back to the UK and claimed to live under social benefits.

After a long-winded divorce which lasted 2 years because of his game playing, 1 year later, he took me to the Swiss court to a) split my Swiss pension, and b)asked me to pay for his visit/holidays with our children. I am alone in Switzerland with 2 young kids and a full time job. I do have a high salary but it comes with a high-demand job. The father contributed nothing towards the children, financially or physical care. He spent the last 4 years trying everything to get money off me and to destroy my life along the way. He came to Switzerland for the court twice but didn't see the children. When asked by the judge he said he had no money to see them, but then had to revealed that he spent 300fr on 2 nights hotel for 1 afternoon court.

Anyway, the court order was very vague: they didn't give him my pension. They ordered that "mother finance the visits" (without any specification) but the father can not claim any cash under this title. My (and my lawyer's) impression is that the court is making sure he can not benefit himself financially from this, but at the same time (because I and the court don't have any evidence that he can work or has money) ensuring the children's right. Of note, I never ever tried to stop the children from building relationships with the father. I want my children to be happy and secure.

With this court order, I am only willing to pay for the flights. As far as I concern, it is reasonable and compliant. Now he is threatening to involve KESB.

Now my question is: what power does KESB have? Is it a "human" organisation? Meaning will they listen to both side of story? Cos if they do, it is not difficult to see the truth underneath this sobbing father. But if they don't and just mechanically doing things like "adding details to fill in the gap of the court order by specifying what the mother should pay, etc", I wouldn't trust the system.

Why don't I trust the system? This man has been hiding behind his "depression and cannot work" mask for years and got his ways through many things. All he needed/had is his GP/friend's sick note and he had been getting benefits from the states for the last 4 years even when he was working (but he takes cash for private work and I can't get hold of any evidence), got a big lump sum of settlement from me through the UK divorce court, and after he finished all the money, he came to the swiss court and even got the legal aid from the Canton being a non-swiss residence (meaning all his lawyer and court fee was paid by the canton).

Me on the other hand, because I have a good job and refuse to play the "victim" role (not an example to set for my children), got no help but had to spend a fortune in legal fee just to fight this man off my back.

And I am fed up with getting different and uncertain advice from the lawyers and then being given a big bill. I would like to know real experiences and constructive advice.

Thank you in advance.
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Old 28.11.2019, 17:07
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Re: What can KESB (Kindes- und Erwachsenenschutzbehörde) do?

I am terribly sorry to hear your story.

I dont have first hand experience with KESB, but I dont think I need to in order to give you the advice to not automatically trust the system. Like everything else in Switzerland does it seem to be a matter of the canton - some have a better reputation than others. There have been a couple of scandals and in principle is the organization very powerful.

Having said that - most scandals were actually in your favour: Switzerland being as old fashioned as it is has a lot of civil servants who apparently believe that the woman should take care of the kids and the man should make the money... so if you have to do both because the man according to the traditional Swiss ideals isnt doing his job would I not expect them to give him a lot of free rides... either way: make sure you pay your legal insurance on time and lawyer up as soon as you get the impression it isnt going well.
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Old 28.11.2019, 17:15
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Re: What can KESB (Kindes- und Erwachsenenschutzbehörde) do?

Thanks for your advice. In fact, before he took me to the Swiss court, he had involved the KESB once and a lawyer from there contacted me. But after hearing my side of the story AND his sides of excuses (as she quoted) she didn't make too much effort. I then paid for my son to fly to london a few days later (for the sake of my son, not for him). Then the story with them ended there. In that case, I felt they (well, the lawyer) quite "human".

But this time, he will go in with the court order....
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Old 28.11.2019, 17:33
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Re: What can KESB (Kindes- und Erwachsenenschutzbehörde) do?

I don't know the KESB so well, but it could be to your benefit to specify what the court order means, offering a bit more than is possibly required. If he does call the KESB in, bring along your suggested agreement to the meeting.

One thing which might work here is to offer him a written agreement that you will book his flights (in economy class) and one night's accommodation at a three-star hotel (or equivalent) within easy distance of your home, a certain number of times per year, so that these things are fixed - and he can't claim more than the actual cost of things. Offering the overnight stay would mean that he has the opportunity to not feel "rushed" in his time with the children, or demand to come every weekend.

Even if he doesn't call in the KESB, it'd be good if you could convince him to sign an agreement like this so that, in the future, you have it clearly in writing.

Last edited by araqyl; 28.11.2019 at 17:34. Reason: specified quality of flight
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Old 28.11.2019, 17:51
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Re: What can KESB (Kindes- und Erwachsenenschutzbehörde) do?

Thank you for your advice. FYI, I have already send his lawyer a detailed proposal, with my willingness to pay for the flights. And in the email I have learnt to list out all the things he doesn't want anyone to know, such as his marijuana use and didn't comply with my son's daily injection while he was with him. Of course if they have a problem with my proposal, they should present this email to KESB, and I will if they don't.

Too much details of my ex-marriage and divorce to be told, I can write a book. What people and the court don't know is, this man will not be satisfied. You give him one thing, he will push for 10. Before our divorce, we signed an separation agreement with him taking half of our savings (well my saving, as said, he never worked), and he promised me an easy divorce. He then denied this agreement in the UK court and said he signed it under duress. But later in the Swiss court, he used this agreement again because in there I agreed to pay half for his visits to the kids (which I was genuien about).

The reason the divorce cost me so much (40,000 pounds!!! in case you are curious) and dragged for so long was because he played the game of negotiate and denied multiple times.

So unless the agreement is legally bind, it will become useless paper at the end. And the annoying thing is the court also don't take these mutual agreements into consideration. That is why in the swiss court, I learnt not to have any negotiation with him but left it to the court.

His intention is never about the children, but to make money from me and disturb my life as much as he can.

And I am afraid whatever more I offer, the KESB, if they are not as "human" as I would like them to be, would push more to help him. I may as well start with as little as possible.
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Old 28.11.2019, 17:54
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Re: What can KESB (Kindes- und Erwachsenenschutzbehörde) do?

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I don't know the KESB so well, but it could be to your benefit to specify what the court order means, offering a bit more than is possibly required. If he does call the KESB in, bring along your suggested agreement to the meeting.

One thing which might work here is to offer him a written agreement that you will book his flights (in economy class) and one night's accommodation at a three-star hotel (or equivalent) within easy distance of your home, a certain number of times per year, so that these things are fixed - and he can't claim more than the actual cost of things. Offering the overnight stay would mean that he has the opportunity to not feel "rushed" in his time with the children, or demand to come every weekend.

Even if he doesn't call in the KESB, it'd be good if you could convince him to sign an agreement like this so that, in the future, you have it clearly in writing.
That also will shine a good light on the OP through being proactive and making an effort, even if he doesn't sign it.
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Old 28.11.2019, 17:56
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Re: What can KESB (Kindes- und Erwachsenenschutzbehörde) do?

It pains me to read your story and makes me wonder, why has this kind of stuff to happen time and again been there and got the T-shirt too.......

One thing of your story; it is actually the law,that after a divorce the AHV, as well as the Pensionskasse (2nd Pillar insurance) is split between the divorcees equally, but only over the time the marriage lasted!


The KESB has got a bad reputation, that much is true, but one shouldn't forget that it is a few badly turned out cases, often publicly staged that caused this reputation. No one reads about the 1000nds of cases they deal with and care for quietly and and successfully!

I would second Treverus' answer to you. Furthermore, that you already got contacted once by them and their reaction to your problem tells a lot to me too. So if anything, I'd like to believe that things would even get better if they were involved.

It feels to me as if your ex-husband is trying a kind of intimidation tactics by wanting to involve the KESB.

The court order states 'the mother has to finance the visits', but is not detailing what exactly. Here the KESB could be of help, as your ex-husband would have to 'strip naked' and hand in all kinds of information about his personal finances/ bank account/ income/taxes etc etc, withholding this information would only act against him and in your favour.

Also one thing your hubby should put into his mindset, is that there is a parental obligation/ELTERNPFLICHT, not just parental rights/ ELTERNRECHT, he as well has to adhere to!

YOU are looking after your kids, raise them, pay for day care/nanny, clothe and feed them and pay all the costs that come with having kids. He on the other hand isn't paying anything towards that and apparently has not done much in that department.

I get the impression, and I am sorry if i sound harsh, it is money he's after, the wellfare of the kids is second to him.


this is just what I feel, personally in my story the KESB was not involved, but some of the things you experienced, I experienced too.

I hope and wish for you and your kids that the story may soon come to an end, everything be settled and more importantly set in black and white, so that you all may get on with your lives and the kids hopefully build a relationship with their father.


All the best

EE
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Old 28.11.2019, 18:09
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Re: What can KESB (Kindes- und Erwachsenenschutzbehörde) do?

Thank you very much for letting me know I am not the only one who experienced this. Though I am not complaining. I have a good job, being able to live in this generally speaking wonderful country, have supportive family, and most of all, two most beautiful kids. I don't even wish anything ill of my ex, people like him would die on his own hand. I actually feel sorry for him. He would not have made so much effort to revenge on me if his life is going well. So I fight my corner when I need to, then forget and forgive.

Also to share my experience with you regarding pension. Our case was special as there was a law in Switzerland that Swiss court can overwrite any other court order regarding swiss pension. This law takes effect since 01Jan2017. I started the divorce procedure in the UK (as he requested) in Apr 2015, finally got the court order in late Dec 2016. But with 28 days of potential appeal (which neither of we did), the final decree absolute came in Jan 2017. So at the time of the Swiss court, the only worry for me was which date the Swiss court will recognise. Every lawyer I talked to told me that the court will never ask me to pay for the father, but my pension was at risk. Well they were all wrong. Having said that, I do try to understand the court decision (about the children).

And you are right, he is after money... If he wasn't and genuinely want to see the kids, I will be happy to (as when I signed the separation agreement).
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Old 28.11.2019, 21:06
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Re: What can KESB (Kindes- und Erwachsenenschutzbehörde) do?

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The court order states 'the mother has to finance the visits', but is not detailing what exactly.
Listening to the story would I suggest FlixBus over a flight ticket. Its only 20 hours from London to Basel and its not as if he is missing out on work...

https://shop.global.flixbus.com/sear...1&currency=EUR
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Old 28.11.2019, 22:47
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Re: What can KESB (Kindes- und Erwachsenenschutzbehörde) do?

Pension is only related to the years married, not total.

Tom
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Old 28.11.2019, 23:36
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Re: What can KESB (Kindes- und Erwachsenenschutzbehörde) do?

Considering the European Parliament just declared Climate Emergency, you could, with very good reasons, as Treverus suggested, insist on the most environment-friendly choice being picked (well, besides walking or taking the velo )

So Flixbus it is!

Besides that, sorry to hear about the whole story. Thad dude since like one hell of a person.

Assuming he just wants to "milk" something more out of the whole situation and not actually see the kids, he'll most probably turn down the Flixbus offer. Which will then be another point for you. In front of KESB and anyone else.

Good luck!
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