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Old 22.03.2020, 09:10
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Re: Coronavirus

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Yes, we're worried for our parents too. Even if we could leave CH (we can't, my OH is working and is responsible for other 20 people in his team, luckily they work remotely but keeping people's morale high and keeping them motivated and sane is also part of a manager's life), we would be quarantined for 14 days - coming from a red area.....

Are you saying Germany does not do that? Would you be allowed to carry on, no question as where you come from - asked?

I find it very strange how so many countries are still letting anyone pass - no questions asked.
Anyone entering Germany from Switzerland has to quarantine themselves for 14 days if not a cross border worker/logistics etc. This info is towards the end of this link under the heading ‘What do you need to consider when travelling to and staying in Switzerland?’

https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/covid-1...rland/45592192
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Old 22.03.2020, 09:13
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Re: Coronavirus

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.
Also most basic latex gloves are not in any kind of shortage while more eco friendly option is of course to use leather gloves which at least most of people own already.
I am not sure of the benefit of wearing leather gloves?
Latex gloves you throw away when you return home.
Your hands you should wash.
But what do you do with leather gloves when you return home? Wash them with soap and water? Can you really wash them virus-free?

Asking for a friend.

Thinking about this more! If the virus is lying on the ground then maybe we should think more about how to clean the soles of our shoes, or at least leave them outside the house door?
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  #4643  
Old 22.03.2020, 09:14
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Sounds wonderful! Do you do postal deliveries?
Alas not enough Sourdough starter for more than a couple of loaves but granola could be an option depending on location. Where in ZH canton are you?
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Old 22.03.2020, 09:19
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The head of ICU unit at Nyon tested positive, expects to be back at work in few days

I have had a first hand experience of the virus from somebody I know, he is in Russia, mid 40s, smoker. Was tired, feverish, had the runs for few days, on antiflu medicine all gone now and feeling great. Already switched to local water

Medical team told him if Covid wasn't in the news he'd never be hospitalized.

I also have had first hand experience of the virus relating to a close friend of my mother. She died last Friday. Please do not downplay the seriousness of this virus. While one person may be lucky enough to suffer only mild symptoms they in turn may have infected numerous others before they realised they had the disease. For any one of those people it could be deadly.
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Old 22.03.2020, 09:28
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Re: Coronavirus

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I also have had first hand experience of the virus relating to a close friend of my mother. She died last Friday. Please do not downplay the seriousness of this virus. While one person may be lucky enough to suffer only mild symptoms they in turn may have infected numerous others before they realised they had the disease. For any one of those people it could be deadly.
I'm not downplaying anything - i'm just simply stating a fact. For a huge majority of people this virus is not serous. We shouldn't forget that.

I really don't understand the need for apocalyptic doom and gloom mood.
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  #4646  
Old 22.03.2020, 09:31
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Re: How is Switzerland doing - Covid-19

The scenes going on in the UK leave me feeling cold:
  • Boris's slow and indecisive reaction to the crisis in terms of closing/locking things down
  • Lack of testing for NHS and emergency service staff
  • Panic-buying obscene amounts at everyone else's expense, especially the elderly and vulnerable, and often to sell at profits
  • People still going out getting completely trashed in large groups and thinking it is amazing
  • Mosques still holding large-scale prayer sessions
  • Massive increase in door-to-door scammers targeting the vulnerable
  • Our heinous tabloid media loving every journalistic second of it and fuelling misinformation and anxiety

Yes there are of course lots of lovely and good people in the UK and lots of lovely, unique and charming things about many of our regions. Some positive things are happening with the government financial support of workers hit by this pandemic.

However, it is clear that the UK has a crazily high, disproportionate number of utter ****-heads and it's situations like this that you see how far we have fallen and degenerated as a culture. Massive levels of general ignorance, stupendous levels of greed, widespread binge drinking and alcoholism, huge levels of selfishness and attention-seeking and a lack of togetherness and watching out for others. People generally have to be told not to be complete idiots at most given times.

This isn't just the UK affected by this, it happens everywhere to some extent, but to me the UK is the worst example that I can think of. It's a culture of greed, ignorance, selfishness and incompetence where over the last few short decades we have engaged in a level of cultural self-destruction that has championed the individual and created such levels of entitlement that even times of emergency can't suppress in the rabble that forms the overall majority of our general populace.

I have been down about the UK for some time now, seeing it decline so sharply in values, but now I really feel it's reaching the point of no return. I see a clear gulf between the UK and many other European countries, a significant deficit in dignity, competence and common sense. We can no longer stand there and hide behind our mythical stiff upper lip, wartime reputations, dignified royalty, our world-famous arts, or our overall contributions to Europe. Our cultural warts are now becoming plain for everyone to see and any glamour we once earned had is wearing off. For the first time in my life, I think that the the cons to being British outweigh the pros.

Still, it could be worse, we could have Trump as a leader and Boris is a paragon of virtue compared to that man.

Last edited by Chuff; 22.03.2020 at 10:51. Reason: Typo
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  #4647  
Old 22.03.2020, 09:42
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Re: How is Switzerland doing - Covid-19

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The scenes going on in the UK leave me feeling cold:
  • Boris's slow and indecisive reaction to the crisis in terms of closing/ocking things down
  • Lack of testing for NHS and emergency service staff
  • Panic-buying obscene amounts at everyone else's expense, especially the elderly and vulnerable, and often to sell at profits
  • People still going out getting completely trashed in large groups and thinking it is amazing
  • Mosques still holding large-scale prayer sessions
  • Massive increase in door-to-door scammers targeting the vulnerable
  • Our heinous tabloid media loving every journalistic second of it and fuelling misinformation and anxiety

Yes there are of course lots of lovely and good people in the UK and lots of lovely, unique and charming things about many of our regions. Some positive things are happening with the government financial support of workers hit by this pandemic.

However, it is clear that the UK has a crazily high, disproportionate number of utter ****-heads and it's situations like this that you see how far we have fallen and degenerated as a culture. Massive levels of general ignorance, stupendous levels of greed, widespread binge drinking and alcoholism, huge levels of selfishness and attention-seeking and a lack of togetherness and watching out for others. People generally have to be told not to be complete idiots at most given times.

This isn't just the UK affected by this, it happens everywhere to some extent, but to me the UK is the worst example that I can think of. It's a culture of greed, ignorance, selfishness and incompetence where over the last few short decades we have engaged in a level of cultural self-destruction that has championed the individual and created such levels of entitlement that even times of emergency can't suppress in the rabble that forms the overall majority of our general populace.

I have been down about the UK for some time now, seeing it decline so sharply in values, but now I really feel it's reaching the point of no return. I see a clear gulf between the UK and many other European countries, a significant deficit in dignity, competence and common sense. We can no longer stand there and hide behind our mythical stiff upper lip, wartime reputations, dignified royalty, our world-famous arts, or our overall contributions to Europe. Our cultural warts are now becoming plain for everyone to see and any glamour we once earned had is wearing off. For the first time in my life, I think that the the cons to being British outweigh the pros.

Still, it could be worse, we could have Trump as a leader and Boris is a paragon of virtue compared to that man.
What do you think should happen to improve the status quo (or your opinion of it)?

Last edited by MusicChick; 22.03.2020 at 10:23.
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Old 22.03.2020, 09:50
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Re: Coronavirus

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I'm not downplaying anything - i'm just simply stating a fact. For a huge majority of people this virus is not serous. We shouldn't forget that.

I really don't understand the need for apocalyptic doom and gloom mood.
Its not a huge majority, its a majority.

Each time someone states something like the huge majority of cases the virus is not serious, they are down playing the effects of this virus and propagating the idea that people should not worry about getting it or worry about spreading it. Just listen to all the kids at the beach on spring break in the States.

The facts are that one in every three people show critical to severe symptoms meaning hospitalization due to pneumonia, or requiring a ventilator. That is not a trivial statistic.
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jam...rticle/2763401

One in every five people between the age of 22 - 40 is hospitalized:
https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/18/...ot-invincible/

The virus kills somewhere around 10 - 20 % of people over the age of 70.
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jam...rticle/2763401

And these are all stats while the medical system is functioning normally ...

Even if for two out of every three people the virus is not serious, all three of those people have someone in their lives who is at serious risk from this virus.
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Old 22.03.2020, 09:55
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Re: Coronavirus

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I'm not downplaying anything - i'm just simply stating a fact. For a huge majority of people this virus is not serous. We shouldn't forget that.

I really don't understand the need for apocalyptic doom and gloom mood.
I think it is not just the threat of our mortality that people are logically worried about.

I am also quite worried about the complete crash of economies of those countries, who can only afford to flatten the curve by a complete hault of everything now. It is happening and they will be behind. Governments do triage too, risk people's lives or risk really deep economical breakdown affecting everybody. It is a tough choice that the population might not agree on, or might not understand. Italian healthcare system is rated really high and it is collapsing up north. There hasn't been much help to them aside of China, imho.

Another thing that makes me worried are future stats of the reduction of respiratory function, that will be painful for patients and that will need a lot of assistance, too.

So - maybe the worries are justified in some ways, not everyone who is worried is an apocalyptic stress junkie. I don't think there is energy for that.
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Old 22.03.2020, 09:58
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Re: How is Switzerland doing - Covid-19

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What do you think should happen to improve the status quo (or your opinion if it)?
I have no suggestions that I would consider feasible or realistic or that could be implemented in any reasonable time-frame without comparatively draconian levels of policing and complete overhauls of the political system, public spending and government policy. It is in my yiew an example of what happens over a period of time when you give the general population the impression that they can do what they want, when they want, with few repercussions. It's also what happens when a culture with a weak political, policing and justice system loses a high degree of respect for and fear of the authorities that govern them as well as respect for the people around them. I see no hope of things significantly improving within my lifetime. Bleak, but honest.
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Old 22.03.2020, 10:02
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Re: Coronavirus

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Its not a huge majority, its a majority.

Each time someone states something like the huge majority of cases the virus is not serious, they are down playing the effects of this virus and propagating the idea that people should not worry about getting it or worry about spreading it. Just listen to all the kids at the beach on spring break in the States.

Even if for two out of every three people the virus is not serious, all three of those people have someone in their lives who is at serious risk from this virus.

Yes, absolutely. Thank you.
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Old 22.03.2020, 10:04
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Re: How is Switzerland doing - Covid-19

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This isn't just the UK affected by this, it happens everywhere to some extent, but to me the UK is the worst example that I can think of. It's a culture of greed, ignorance, selfishness and incompetence where over the last few short decades we have engaged in a level of cultural self-destruction that has championed the individual and created such levels of entitlement that even times of emergency can't suppress in the rabble that forms the overall majority of our general populace.

I have been down about the UK for some time now, seeing it decline so sharply in values, but now I really feel it's reaching the point of no return. I see a clear gulf between the UK and many other European countries, a significant deficit in dignity, competence and common sense. We can no longer stand there and hide behind our mythical stiff upper lip, wartime reputations, dignified royalty, our world-famous arts, or our overall contributions to Europe. Our cultural warts are now becoming plain for everyone to see and any glamour we once earned had is wearing off. For the first time in my life, I think that the the cons to being British outweigh the pros.

Still, it could be worse, we could have Trump as a leader and Boris is a paragon of virtue compared to that man.
I think this is likely because you’re overly influenced by reading English language press and social media postings. I’m sure if you were to read French, Spanish or Italian twitter timelines then you’d find much the same as what’s been written about Donald Trump or the UK governments reaction to the crisis.

At the present moment in time it is only Germany and Switzerland that seem not to have been so drastically affected in terms of death rate, however this could well change. I don’t think it’s a credible argument to say that one nation is so much stupider than other nations.
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Old 22.03.2020, 10:07
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Re: Coronavirus

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Even if for two out of every three people the virus is not serious, all three of those people have someone in their lives who is at serious risk from this virus.
You are getting big numbers because you are taking into account only people admitted in ICU care. 2/3 in hospitals will be in intensive care because they have some sort of a pre condition. The big truth that a even bigger number of people that have been affected are not admitted into hospitals and they are recovering at home without much fanfare.

China has 1.3B population and had 81k cases with 3000 fatalities.

That's 0.06% affected and 0.0002% fatalities on national level

So huge majority of people weren't affected or didn't even bother to show up at a hospital to be registered as affected.

Just like any flu, most people will recover, a very small number will suffer. The virus won't magically be gone in 1 month
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Old 22.03.2020, 10:12
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Re: Coronavirus

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Its not a huge majority, its a majority...
Even if for two out of every three people the virus is not serious, all three of those people have someone in their lives who is at serious risk from this virus.
The vast majority have no symptoms at all, your 2/3 relates to people with symptoms, not people with the virus.

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Old 22.03.2020, 10:12
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Re: Coronavirus

There's stupidity everywhere. Even here.

The parks in Zurich were closed because people refused to stay apart. They congregated together when explicitly told not to.

People have been fighting over goods in supermarkets here too. It's a pity no one videoed it.

On the last nice day before the total restaurant closure, when the limit was fifty customers per restaurant, in at least one with outdoor seating, instead of accepting that they had to be turned away, people were climbing over fences to get in.

Seriously, there's stupid behaviour everywhere at times like these.
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Old 22.03.2020, 10:13
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Re: Coronavirus

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I'm not downplaying anything - i'm just simply stating a fact. For a huge majority of people this virus is not serous. We shouldn't forget that.

I really don't understand the need for apocalyptic doom and gloom mood.
The fact is, everyone is being affected by this pandemic a bit differently. If you were elderly or had just lost your job because of it, you would probably be experiencing it differently from a younger person with a secure job and savings, etc. So I think it's faulty logic to assume that other people don't need to worry simply because you feel that you don't.

When we're not the ones working in the hospitals and facing a shortage of masks, etc. or having a loved one who is hooked up to a breathing machine to keep them alive, I guess it's easier to downplay the severity of the situation in our minds.
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Old 22.03.2020, 10:16
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Re: Coronavirus

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Just like any flu, most people will recover, a very small number will suffer. The virus won't magically be gone in 1 month
For most flu seasons, the vulnerable, and others, take a vaccine.

There isn't one for this virus.
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Old 22.03.2020, 10:21
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Re: Coronavirus

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The fact is, everyone is being affected by this pandemic a bit differently. If you were elderly or had just lost your job because of it, you would probably be experiencing it differently from a younger person with a secure job and savings, etc. So I think it's faulty logic to assume that other people don't need to worry simply because you feel that you don't.

When we're not the ones working in the hospitals and facing a shortage of masks, etc. or having a loved one who is hooked up to a breathing machine to keep them alive, I guess it's easier to downplay the severity of the situation in our minds.
Yes. Also, some people's immediate personal burden of responsibility is small. DINKIES, or single persons with an income that remains secure, are in a completely different position from someone who is paying for the needs of dependents. The worry now and the long-term consequences are much greater for those who have to juggle the needs of a family with several children, and/or who are directly financially supporting friends or relations abroad.
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Old 22.03.2020, 10:22
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Re: Coronavirus

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Well, that's not what my nursing friend said. She said that in their organisation, providing home-nursing (Spitex), they are being rationed, and they're discussing when to clean and re-use.

She said that she knows of another Spitex which has entirely run out of any kind of gloves (no latex, no nitrile, no vinyl), and have managed to source only very bad quality and poorly made surgical masks. this because, basically, they were too late, so that their order is now in a queue. I'm passing on only what I was told. Perhaps there are other suppliers about whom they don't know.
I do believe you but hope there was some misunderstanding and that their sourcing does not rely on 1 or 2 partners. Aside from Swiss ones, Alibaba stores have millions available for immediate express shipping both for surgical masks and gloves while I cross my fingers that hospital sourcing does not need to rely on same sales channels which me as a normal consumer can access.

One of the major challenges now is that every possible fake news is spreading so fast. From my home country there was just similar thing in the news how hospitals are already running out of material and this was even published on local newspapers. However the real story was that one hospital employee had said that in case of running out, they could disinfect some of gloves, not that they actually are running out of anything at this point. In fact, they now confirmed to have more than 3 months worth of stock left.

FFP3 masks are indeed still an issue but would bet my hat that Chinese factories are already modified to produce more of these so hope that even these will not be an issue in some weeks from now.


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I am not sure of the benefit of wearing leather gloves?
Latex gloves you throw away when you return home.
Your hands you should wash.
But what do you do with leather gloves when you return home? Wash them with soap and water? Can you really wash them virus-free?
Since the virus dies outside of human body within hours (or maximum few days depending of conditions and surfaces), it does not really matter if there would be virus left in the bottom of your shoes or outside of your gloves as long as you dont touch this area. Even if bottom of my shoes or fingertips of my gloves would be full of virus, as long as I dont lick them or touch them with my hands and then use that same hand to rub my nose, it does not know how to walk to my bedroom but just stays there and dies within some hours or days. In case one wants to speed up virus to die, can leave them on a balcony in sunny place since UV from sun is possibly killing it quite fast (assuming its sunny day of course).

Naturally I still wash my hands also after putting groceries away as there could be virus on surfaces of those too (at least for some hours after bringing them home).

Last edited by hellacopters; 22.03.2020 at 10:36.
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Old 22.03.2020, 10:23
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Re: Coronavirus

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Yes. Also, some people's immediate personal burden of responsibility is small. DINKIES, or single persons with an income that remains secure, are in a completely different position from someone who is paying for the needs of dependents. The worry now and the long-term consequences are much greater for those who have to juggle the needs of a family with several children, and/or who are directly financially supporting friends or relations abroad.
There will be no secure incomes, jobs and savings. Companies, economies and countries will fail after this economic grinding halt. Everybody will be affected and much much more than the damage this virus will do to us
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